Seems the critics of Executive Order were right. Ever since King Roosevelt started throwing them around, every President seems to see it as a sort of Royal Proclimation they can use to circumvent the legislative process. At this point, it kind of seems like telling the wolf we should do something about the chickens.
Doublespeak on the e-cig White House Petition - Did we all get fooled?
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Seems the critics of Executive Order were right. Ever since King Roosevelt started throwing them around, every President seems to see it as a sort of Royal Proclimation they can use to circumvent the legislative process. At this point, it kind of seems like telling the wolf we should do something about the chickens.
When I was a kid I used to work on a neighbor's farm and had to shovel stuff that resembled the highlighted statement all day. If you believe that the labor unions have the same influence as big pharma or the oil producers over our system then you really need to cut down on the Koolaid. I've been a UAW member since 1976 and have seen nothing but a steady decline in the power of the labor movement throughout my adult life.
Sorry, I forgot that there are those who refuse to be swayed by reality. I'm out of here.
My signature has no bearing on this subject matter. Just because I quote Ayn Rand in my signature does not mean that everything I say relates to her. You are setting up a straw man and I'm not going to be drug into that pseudo-argument.
As for Jefferson and Adams, they did have differences, but they both agreed that a large, powerful central government and the monarchy they were at the time falling prey to were both evil and not desirable for a free society. Just because they differed on certain subjects does not mean that they did not agree on this basic premise. This premise is what allowed them to form the greatest governmental experiment in the history of the world. Again, you set up a straw man.
I already told you what I proposed.
It depends on who you are petitioning. Why are you petitioning the President? Shouldn't you be petitioning your local representatives? Your Congresspeople? Again, the President is NOT supposed to craft legislation...unless you want a king. If that's the case, have at it. Just don't scold me for not wanting the same.
Apparently your grasp isn't big enough. If it were, you would note that petitioning a president and treating him as a monarch who needs to "save us all" simply fuels a bigger, more intrusive, more powerful government that in turn gets in bed with more money, more corporations, giving them all more power over us than they previously had. Do you see the cycle? Our form of government only--ONLY--can succeed in keeping us free if we are involved at the smallest, most local of levels. If we petition Washington and expect the solutions to come from there, we will simply get more government, more intrusiveness, with more power, and more corruption. Again, if that's what you want, be my guest. I want no part of it. I have been involved in my government since I was old enough to know what an election is. I get involved locally and with fervor. THAT is how you change things. And it's time consuming, challenging, frustrating, and maddening...but it's our responsibility as American citizens to get involved in this way.
To simply sign a petition in hopes that all-powerful Washington will save us, and then berate and scold those of us who truly are in the trenches trying to preserve individual liberty is not only the laziest form of democracy, it's delusional.
Understanding your place in the balance of power and respecting that place are two different things. Putting that petition site up is evidence enough for me as it shows his true desire for complete power, although there are thousands of other examples of this disrespect.
As for him not getting anything accomplished, I don't believe that it is the job of the President to accomplish anything. It's up to us, through our locally-elected officials, to accomplish things. I hope I've conveyed that clearly.
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What is the job of POTUS? If it not to get things done what is the need for a president. Sure I agree it up to the people to get things done but they need a means to do so, you say locally elected officials, but what power do they have? If you're saying they should have more power I agree but they don't. So use the system as it is, not as you wish it to be. Thats dealing with reality.
I'd guess, at best, that since the minimum went to 25K, ours will be given short shrift if anything at all .. and, have you seen some of the other "petitions" .. ??
Decriminalize the practice/occupation of engaging in sexual activity between consenting adults in exchange for payment.
Immediately halt the cruel and unnecessary use of monkeys in Army chemical casualty management training courses.
Decriminalize the practice/occupation of engaging in sexual activity between consenting adults in exchange for payment.
Immediately halt the cruel and unnecessary use of monkeys in Army chemical casualty management training courses.
While this thread has definite outside potential1 it is borderline for here. For now it can stay here2.
Let's make sure we stay within the TOS or I'll have to sic classwife3 on you.
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1Potential as in the ability to go very awry if people do not use some resistant and choose their words carefully.
2This thread is e-cig related so doesn't belong in outside, it may be a better fit in legislation but I'll ponder on that one a bit. If it get's moved I'll try to make sure a redirect is placed here.
3that lady can be scary!
Let's make sure we stay within the TOS or I'll have to sic classwife3 on you.
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1Potential as in the ability to go very awry if people do not use some resistant and choose their words carefully.
2This thread is e-cig related so doesn't belong in outside, it may be a better fit in legislation but I'll ponder on that one a bit. If it get's moved I'll try to make sure a redirect is placed here.
3that lady can be scary!
That's what happens when the focus is no longer on the issue and political rhetoric takes over. You shoot yourself in the foot and support dwindles. Anyone who has ever been successful with a grass roots issue will tell you that.
I sense a bit of a walk in the direction of a false dilemma, here.
Simply because a petition has been set-up in the place that this administration designed for just such a purpose, and people are soliciting signatures for same, in no way implies that your fellow citizens are not politically active at their local levels. I certainly am.
I see the current petition as significantly lacking in many respects; however, as with legislation (like the healthcare bill), the ensuing exchange between the constituency and the White House can be modulated and refined.
This president was elected, at least in part, because he was savvy enough to stay in touch with the public at large, via the Internet. I can't see that he will abandon a process that has a proven track record for him, and do opine that he will be responsive to this issue to some degree.
Perhaps some benefit will come to us out of this process.
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You so did not have to go there.
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Lots of people read those petitions and the comments made by the signers. Some Government official, perhaps a few, a group, a committee will read them.
If ONE individual smoker quits smoking and switches to an e-cig all 5000 signatures will have been a resounding success.
If one government official does any real research and changes his mind about e-cigs then it will be a resounding success.
Sure we want the White House to stand up and say E-cigs are awesome and we are going to push legislation to help these people and recognize E-cigs for the wonderful quit smoking tools they are. But even if this does not happen people, we just planted a huge seed that has the potential to grow into a very strong tree.
Therefore to me, the whole point about this petition being the "wrong" thing to do is a moot point.
If ONE individual smoker quits smoking and switches to an e-cig all 5000 signatures will have been a resounding success.
If one government official does any real research and changes his mind about e-cigs then it will be a resounding success.
Sure we want the White House to stand up and say E-cigs are awesome and we are going to push legislation to help these people and recognize E-cigs for the wonderful quit smoking tools they are. But even if this does not happen people, we just planted a huge seed that has the potential to grow into a very strong tree.
Therefore to me, the whole point about this petition being the "wrong" thing to do is a moot point.
I don't understand our government, they start with 5000 signatures and jump to 25000, that's crazy. I can see maybe even doubling it but they have upped it 5 times. Figures they are nuts!
Well, if nothing else, there are a lot folk here that 'feel' better already.
BUT, I've never been hired nor paid by 'Feel Inc.'. And I sure as Hades don't want to be governed by 'feel'!
Oh, BTW, the USA has three branches of government; Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Our founding Fathers deemed only one of those to make national law...
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Heh, yeah, all moral compass issues on the role of government aside, 3 of the top 8 are to legalize weed... grand company to keep indeed.
Yeah. I hear ya. I only wish we had enough moola to buy them off like big tobacco and big pharma do.
Well, actually.....yeah. It's been a slow day, the busiest part of which consisted of taking photos of my newest, patent pending, funnelized drip tip. Stainless steel version soon to be announced--offer void where prohibited by law or forum regulations.
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Well, they have my signature now. x)
However, it wouldn't surprise me if they refused to follow through with it even with 25,000 signatures. The economy is in trouble, and I'm sure they're worried that tobacco sales and medical income will significantly decrease from people using electronic cigarettes to quit nicotine completely, which is the whole point. It seems to me that people are trying to decrease health issues and tobacco purchases when that's exactly what the government wants and needs. Good money in tobacco sales. Electronic cigarette sells may come close if it ever does manage to become that wide spread (I doubt it), but a lot of e-cig users end up quitting the e-cigs when they realize they no longer crave cigarettes, and that e-cigs are not as addictive as analogs.
I don't know about any of it in any extreme detail, but this is my opinion based on what little I do know.
However, it wouldn't surprise me if they refused to follow through with it even with 25,000 signatures. The economy is in trouble, and I'm sure they're worried that tobacco sales and medical income will significantly decrease from people using electronic cigarettes to quit nicotine completely, which is the whole point. It seems to me that people are trying to decrease health issues and tobacco purchases when that's exactly what the government wants and needs. Good money in tobacco sales. Electronic cigarette sells may come close if it ever does manage to become that wide spread (I doubt it), but a lot of e-cig users end up quitting the e-cigs when they realize they no longer crave cigarettes, and that e-cigs are not as addictive as analogs.
I don't know about any of it in any extreme detail, but this is my opinion based on what little I do know.
You know, we could always solicit the help of the e-cig sellers at our malls for help. they get a LOT of interest. They might even be able to get the help of snus and analog smokers- it is after all, going to affect them too....
Are you aware that the FDA tried to effectively end the e-cigarette industry in the United States? Or that the FDA's website still contains misleading information about e-cigarettes that are used by state and local governments to ban the use of e-cigarettes? That the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act gives the FDA regulatory authority over e-cigarettes? Or that 3 U.S. Senators recently sent a letter to the FDA asking that they fast track a move to regulate all tobacco products under the same regulation that covers cigarettes?
Your own state, Kentucky, has 5 cities / counties that ban e-cigarette usage in public places.
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