E cigs said hazardous

[Kate]

I hear what you are saying, and I agree, the nicotine dose from cigs is variable and probably not reliable enough for accurate comparisons.

Some people reckon that the maths and science is useless and that we should satisfy physical cravings as and when we notice them with a dose that satisfies. If we get adverse symptoms then we should take less.

I don't know how helpful that strategy is either because there are routes that way to tolerance and overdose. Some people are also more informed about what to look out for and what constitutes a high dose.

The way extra high nicotine doses are taken for granted by some people as necessary doesn't fill me with confidence for the future of nicotine liquid. When it is regulated, if it's still allowed, it's unlikely that we will be able to get higher doses than with tobacco ... for our own good (right or wrong).

 

[scrubadub]

Both approaches have problems I agree but I'm more inclined to go with the self medicate option. That's what many smokers do anyway, it's why they stopped putting the word lights on ... packets. Building up tolerance is worrying but I was already doing that with the ciggies. 5 a day, 10 a day, 20 a day then 30 a day. I know personally that would have carried on rising for me, there wasn't a ceiling I was going to reach aside from available hours in the day and death.

Which strength juice to buy seems to be a very common question in the new members forum and the answer is often some kind of formula based on the assumed nicotine content of their brand. It makes it sound like an exact science, there are rarely any caveats given and I think that could lead to trouble as well.

So basically no simple answer to that one.

 

[Kate]

Yeah, there is no simple answer.

How would you advise a new user who smokes for example twenty a day?

 

[scrubadub]

Well that's the issue for me really. I don't feel very comfortable recommending a dosage to people, especially when it's based on some dubious figures off the side of a ... packet.

I gave my dad and my brother 901 starter kits a couple of weeks back and that was the first thing they asked me and I wasn't prepared to advise them in that way. I gave them a mixture of strength carts from zero to 18mg, I reminded them they were dealing with a poison and maybe start with a low strength and work their way up if they felt they needed it. My brother settled on medium and my dad decided he liked low strength.

So I suppose my advice would be that nobody other than yourself can tell how much nicotine you're used to, start low and work your way up. You can always add more but you can't take it away if you get in trouble. Although that said I would still have felt responsible if they'd run into trouble as I gave them the devices in the first place.

 

[Kate]

That's pretty sound advice in my opinion, start low and work up if needed. It really is down to the individual as you say.

I usually try to point new users towards information that will help them be informed about doses and effects. Seeing high and extra high recommendations on the board makes me worry.

 

[scrubadub]

Yeah it's good that you do that Kate. There should maybe be a sticky in there similar to the one in the DIY thread reminding people they are about to take delivery of a poison and to be careful.

 

[Zach]

Ok, i now have some low/medium (11mg/ml) e-liquid and this is a lot more manageable. With the 18mg i was having to stop after 2-3 puffs because it was just too intense. Also i no longer have the tick under my eye that i was having for the last week.

 

[Sir_Puffalot]

This is just my opinion on this thread.
We all know that regular cigarettes are killers....no if`, but`s or and`s ,they cause cancer and shorten our lives. Until that is proven and set in stone with e-cigs I will continue vaping.
In my experience I feel alot better (lung wise) no morning cough and to some degree I have cut down the frequency in which I smoke, in fact I only vape now when I`ve got a drink in my hand out with the boys , so for me it`s been a sucess story. I certainly agree that facts are needed but until that happens I`m living for today. Short sighted maybe , but if we listened to every health scare (especially in the UK) I wouldn`t eat eggs,beef, drink alcohol at all , any sort of vacination....etc... I`m sure that e-cigs have been around long enough now to throw up some health problems , so surely they would have been banned from day one, but to compare it to amphetamine like effects is just ridiculous...I`m not proud of it but in my younger days I`ve done my fair share and e-cigs don`t come close!
Again my opinion , so not looking for an argument

 

[Bertrand]

I'm still not convinced that working out our nicotine intake from the figures on the packet is that helpful. Those figures are obtained from the residue that's left behind by a machine that smokes every cigarette in exactly the same way, it isn't the contents of the cigarette itself. You only get that amount if you smoke in exactly the same way as the machine. I found this study recently that suggests the actual nicotine intake by smokers is much higher:

"the calculated value for mean nicotine content per cigarette differed by almost an order of magnitude from the official FTC

I had a quick read of the article. They are comparing what the FTC (federal trade commission) said would be absorbed from the cigarettes to their own measurements of cotinine in smokers, from which they extrapolated the nicotine levels. (The main purpose of the article is to establish a linear relationship between nicotine and cotinine in the blood - cotinine has a longer half life, so it makes it easier to test for cumulative intake.)

If you look at the figures, though, the FTC said these smokes had things like "0.18mg", "0.11mg" and "0.10mg". We don't have this listed on cigarettes in Australia any more, but back when we did, they *were* an order of magnitude higher. Mine used to say 1.2mg nicotine / 16mg tar.

PS. the article is 25 years old. Perhaps they calibrated the automatic smoking machines a little better afterwards.

 

[scrubadub]

Maybe you're right Bertrand but surely you would still need to smoke in the same way as the machine for your nicotine intake to be the same. Also this was posted on e-cig news a few days back:

"The Federal Trade Commission on Wednesday rescinded guidance it issued 42 years ago that has allowed tobacco companies to make claims about tar and nicotine levels based on testing by a machine."

The Associated Press: FTC rescinds guidance for cigarette ads

It's interesting that you don't have those numbers on packets in Australia anymore. Maybe your government realised they were bollocks.

 

[Frankie]

And it can be turned to e-cigs as wellm, at least for me. I DID inhale every drag from analog cig (who does not?) and i DO NOT inhale every drag from e-cig. I do not know about the others, nut at least the "priming puff" is always wasted. So vaping 2 ml of 11 mg/ml does not mean getting 22 mg, which is just about official analog pack content.

Or am I wrong? DO YOU inhale every last drag, just like with analogs?

 

[scrubadub]

No I don't that's why I think all these formulas that crop up here about nicotine intake are worthless.

 

[Bertrand]

No I don't that's why I think all these formulas that crop up here about nicotine intake are worthless.

I agree. But you do get an idea of the *relative* nicotine intake from the e-liquid nicotine content. Similarly with regular cigarettes when they printed the "smoking machine" readings.

 

[gadstyle]

Frankly, i think whether countries approve or don't approve will depend on their ability to collect tax. In Singapore where i travel too where e-cigarette is banned. For those who do not know...a cigarette cost something like USD 0.35! The customs will print a customs logo on each individual cigarette.

E-cig is still a relatively new product, most govt will play safe until a powerful agency like FDA and WHO comes out to give a green light

 

[SuperStack]

Ok, i now have some low/medium (11mg/ml) e-liquid and this is a lot more manageable. With the 18mg i was having to stop after 2-3 puffs because it was just too intense. Also i no longer have the tick under my eye that i was having for the last week.

I purchased both 11mg & 18mg - I found that the 18mg was quite intense at first but then my body acclimated to the strength and I feel normal after using it now for a few days - even the mild heartburn has subsided.

If I pop in an 11mg cart, it just seems weak and doesn't fully satisfy my cravings. I only smoked ultra light analogs before this BTW.

But I can see why someone would move down in strength if experiencing an eye tick.

 

[whippi]

I found that the Janty 6 mg liquid work wonders. I guess its more about the feeling for me.

 

[Sardonic]

Sexual dysfunction my .... That is absolutely not true. Dunno about the rest of it, but that's a joke.

 

[johnny bobcat]

i wouldn't put too much stock in a one paragraph news article with no evidence written in chinglish.

 

[sob80sup81]

Frankly, i think whether countries approve or don't approve will depend on their ability to collect tax. In Singapore where i travel too where e-cigarette is banned. For those who do not know...a cigarette cost something like USD 0.35! The customs will print a customs logo on each individual cigarette.

E-cig is still a relatively new product, most govt will play safe until a powerful agency like FDA and WHO comes out to give a green light

Rather than expecting FDA n WHO take action with regard to health aspect of e-cig consumption in relation to its legality, i believe e-cig manufacturer (e-juice manufacturer included) must have their products checked to meet the standards set by either FDA or WHO.

I think now e-cig and e-cig related product manufacturing is no longer a small business, they should be able to afford it. We the consumer would be gladly spending our money to substitute our smoking habit by purchasing something that even the manufacturer don't seem to feel the need to comply with a certain health standard.

I know that i feel better vaping and so do many others but that doesn't stop me from thinking that i pay to be a guinea pig.

I guess not only we must make petition to support e-cig but we should also make petition to force e-cig manufacturer to have their products tested.

 

[LowThudd]

Well, cigar manufacturers don't have to provide any safety testing, in fact the FDA has never said anything about them. A typical cigar has about as much tobacco as two packs of cigs or MORE, and yet they are consumed much more rapidly. True, most people don't inhale much cigar smoke, but I did. Got me alot more buzzed that sucking down 10ml of 24mg juice in a day. They have PG in them, as well as aditives, flavoring etc. Technically, they are much worse that e-cigs because of the CO, tar and other chemicals being burned. The FDA never thought about stepping on the cigar industry. I don't really see why e-cig companies should have to prove anything, seeing as how vaporized PG and VG inhalation studies have already been done. As long as their juice is free from KNOWN toxins(ie that bad batch of chinese juice the FDA tested), then I don't see the problem. It is the FDA who is claiming they are dangerous, so the burden of proof should be for them in our system of gov't in the US.