Electrical Engineering/Modder Question on 7.4 volt battery

[wv2win]

I was on another thread and this 7.4 volt PV was talked about:

DSE-801 HIGH POWER Vaporizer

My question is: how is it possible (or is it possible) for a pen style battery to be 7.4 volts??? I have been told both on and off this forum that you can't get batteries with that kind of power in that small of a size. If it is possible, then why do we have all of these larger mod PV's when we can have better battery PV's in a small size?

 

[Java_Az]

Without having one and tearing it apart to see how they do it this is just a guess. Pretty sure it is safe to say that it is too small to have a boost circuit in it. So that pretty much leaves having two small 3.7 volt batteries in series to get the 7.4 volts. They run special atomizers that are high ohms.

The HP atomizer is designed at a higher resistance to handle the 7.4v battery, and give the user a true 5volt experience.

So added resistance in the atomizer means it will be drawing a lot less amps then a regular ohm one would. Really it comes down to watts most people like anywhere for 7 to 12 watts. You could build a PV that runs at 1 volt with a really low resistance atomizer you could get good vape off it. Also you could build a PV that runs at 48 volts with a really really high resistance atomizer it will vape great. The thing that is going to be common on the wide range of voltages is the wattage the atomizer is at. So in the end it is kind of a smoke and mirrors thing. You can run a LR atomizer on a 3.7 battery and get a simulated 5 volt vape or you can run a high resistance atomizer on a 7.4 battery and also get a simulated 5 volt vape. Not sure how well i explained this but i tried

 

[wv2win]

Without having one and tearing it apart to see how they do it this is just a guess. Pretty sure it is safe to say that it is too small to have a boost circuit in it. So that pretty much leaves having two small 3.7 volt batteries in series to get the 7.4 volts. They run special atomizers that are high ohms.
So added resistance in the atomizer means it will be drawing a lot less amps then a regular ohm one would. Really it comes down to watts most people like anywhere for 7 to 12 watts. You could build a PV that runs at 1 volt with a really low resistance atomizer you could get good vape off it. Also you could build a PV that runs at 48 volts with a really really high resistance atomizer it will vape great. The thing that is going to be common on the wide range of voltages is the wattage the atomizer is at. So in the end it is kind of a smoke and mirrors thing. You can run a LR atomizer on a 3.7 battery and get a simulated 5 volt vape or you can run a high resistance atomizer on a 7.4 battery and also get a simulated 5 volt vape. Not sure how well i explained this but i tried

Thanks for trying. Until proven otherwise, I'm just not buying that this is the "new" high volt vaping miracle. If it was, every supplier would be selling these as the final answer for the ultimate PV in a small package. The eGo's, Riva's, GLV's, Super T's, Prodigy's, etc would all be out of business.

 

[willr001]

A note on watts/power, it's not linear, it's quadratic. Comparing a 6 volt and 3 volt battery through say a 2 ohm resistor, you see that the 6V passes 3A of current, the 3V passes 1.5A of current, power is voltage times current, so the 6V puts out 18watts, and they 3V is only putting out 4.5watts on the same atomizer. W = V^2 / R

Basically doubling your voltage quadruples the power.

 

[Gummy Bear]

~~ snip~~ You can run a LR atomizer on a 3.7 battery and get a simulated 5 volt vape or you can run a high resistance atomizer on a 7.4 battery and also get a simulated 5 volt vape. Not sure how well i explained this but i tried

Or you could go VV and get real true 5 volt vape instead of a "simulated 5 volt vape". Nothing beats the real thing.
I just wish I could get a 4.5v batt. (That's my sweet spot)

 

[QuikWgn]

Volts Ohms Watts
3.2 1.5 6.83
3.7 1.5 9.13
4.2 1.5 11.76
5.0 1.5 16.67
6.0 1.5 24.00
7.4 1.5 36.51
8.4 1.5 47.04

This is based on W = V² / R

Power in Watts = Energy in Volts squared devided by resistance in Ohms. A 3.7 Volt battery with a 1.5 Ohm load(like a 1.5 Ohm LR306 atty) will use 9.3 Watts (in the sweet spot zone as willr001 mentioned) whereas the 7.4 volt battery with same 1.5 ohm atty consumes 36.51 Watts (like he said a 4 times the wattage with only 2x the number of volts.

Or you could go VV and get real true 5 volt vape instead of a "simulated 5 volt vape". Nothing beats the real thing.
I just wish I could get a 4.5v batt. (That's my sweet spot)

That is a myth electrically speaking. As long as the batts can flow enough current to support the load of the carto/atty, and there are no other constrictions like under rated switches etc 10 watts is 10 watts is 10 watts no matter which combination of voltage and resistance produces it.

3.7v batt + 1.5ohm atty/carto=9.13 watts
4.2v batt + 1.8ohm atty/carto=9.80 watts
5.0v batt + 2.5ohm carto/atty=10.00 watts
6.0v batt + 3.5ohm atty/carto=10.29 watts

You 'might' notice the difference between a 1.5 ohm LR306 on a 3.7v device and the other options, but if you could tell the difference between the other 3 in a blind test I'd give ya $20. Most of the difference people perceive is due to the different 510/801/901 airflow characteristics and the heat generated by the distance from the coil to the mouthpiece. That and a lot of hype over who has the lowest ohm carto, highest drain batts, or the perceived dominance and superiority of high volt vaping, all marketing ploys or fanboyism pushing one vendor or equipment style over another.

 

[wv2win]

[QUOTE=QuikWgn;2701804.......... That and a lot of hype over who has the lowest ohm carto, highest drain batts, or the perceived dominance and superiority of high volt vaping, all marketing ploys or fanboyism pushing one vendor or equipment style over another.[/QUOTE]

I think this statement is a load. You can take the exact same atomizer switch it between a 3.7 volt PV and a good 5 volt PV and the vaping experience on the 5 volt PV is definitey "superior" for the vast majority. That's not marketing or fanboyism or perception, it's a fact.

 

[willr001]

The point is merely that the voltage of a battery, the current drain of a battery, and the atty's resistance all work together, and if you find that a certain atty resistance gives you an optimal experience with a 5V battery, you can just get an atty that is 55% of the resistance of the one you like at 5V, and use it with a 3.7V battery, and as long as you aren't pulling too much current for your battery(s), the power output will be the same.

Same vape experience, different battery voltage and atty resistance. Find the wattage you like, and then just mix and match!

 

[Gummy Bear]

mix and match will get you close BUT,,,,, I can sure tell the difference. I have taken a 510 LR @ 3.7 and calculated it to 7.34watts, Took a c2 3 oHm and adjusted my VV to the same wattage. Sure they were 2 different brands of attys so I should expect a taste change. But just dialing in a given wattage for a particular brand of juice will NOT give the same taste. The different taste may not be so much to do with the wattage as everyone thinks. It has to do with vapor droplet size. Changing anything to do with it will effect the droplet size. I have tested coil diameter on my 3.7v Genisis and found a difference in the taste and amount of vapor with a coil at 2mm or at 1.5mm. This is a very small diameter change but makes a big difference in the taste. Same battery, same juice, same oHms, same gauge kanthal.same Watts. Same everything except for coil diameter. Different coil diam. = different taste. Different anything = different taste. Because if you change just one thing you change the droplet size. Adjusting the droplet size can even change the vapor's hang time in the air after you exhale. Get it down to .3microns and it would hang in the air for more than 30 mins.

 

[willr001]

Same vape experience, different battery voltage and atty resistance.

I wasn't saying you would get the same vape with different atty geometries, but with the same atty design at two different resistances with two different voltage batteries.

Coil size would be very important too, I'd guess the real power number to be interested in is the power divided by the area of the coil. Taking it to a logical extreme, a 10W 1mm diameter coil would be too hot, and a 10W 3cm diameter coil would probably be too cool to vape well.

It's a good point about actual vapor droplet size, I was thinking it's all the same, kinda like steam from boiling water, but that wouldn't be right, since it's from a coil with airflow, and different path lengths on different ecigs with different channels and time for it to recondense and whatnot.

 

[QuikWgn]

.......... That and a lot of hype over who has the lowest ohm carto, highest drain batts, or the perceived dominance and superiority of high volt vaping, all marketing ploys or fanboyism pushing one vendor or equipment style over another.

I think this statement is a load. You can take the exact same atomizer switch it between a 3.7 volt PV and a good 5 volt PV and the vaping experience on the 5 volt PV is definitey "superior" for the vast majority. That's not marketing or fanboyism or perception, it's a fact.

You are totally missing my point. I am not talking about the same ohm atomizer accross different voltages. I'm talking about say a Boge 510 atty @ say 2.5 ohm on a 5v battery compared to a Boge 510 atty @ 3.5 ohm on a 6v battery(the difference being .29w of output). The higher voltage is offset by the higher resistance. Originally the rage was to put your 'standard resistance' cartos and atty's on high volt equipment, but now it seems that everyone is going to 'HV' atty's and cartos on high volts and 'LR' atties on low volts which approximates the same vaping experience.

mix and match will get you close BUT,,,,, I can sure tell the difference. I have taken a 510 LR @ 3.7 and calculated it to 7.34watts, Took a c2 3 oHm and adjusted my VV to the same wattage. Sure they were 2 different brands of attys so I should expect a taste change. But just dialing in a given wattage for a particular brand of juice will NOT give the same taste. The different taste may not be so much to do with the wattage as everyone thinks. It has to do with vapor droplet size. Changing anything to do with it will effect the droplet size. I have tested coil diameter on my 3.7v Genisis and found a difference in the taste and amount of vapor with a coil at 2mm or at 1.5mm. This is a very small diameter change but makes a big difference in the taste. Same battery, same juice, same oHms, same gauge kanthal.same Watts. Same everything except for coil diameter. Different coil diam. = different taste. Different anything = different taste. Because if you change just one thing you change the droplet size. Adjusting the droplet size can even change the vapor's hang time in the air after you exhale. Get it down to .3microns and it would hang in the air for more than 30 mins.

I understand this, but to 99% of vapers you might as well be talking quantum physics. Just from the LR510 to the CE2 you are talking the difference between wick style, fill vs no fill, etc. There are a lot of variables there. I dont even think you are going to get that much repeatability out of the average Chinese made atty or carto otherwise you wouldn't have one pop after 2 days and the next one in the pack last 2 months. The Genesis is a far different animal than what the average vaper will ever hold in their hands unless someone knocks it off and makes it much cheaper and far more user friendly.

 

[AttyPops]

All I have to say is.... too bad they made it a pen-style. I have to make my own 5v's. Working on stuffing a regulator in one for a 2x14500 tube mod (kinda 5v eGo).

We get into these discussions every once in a while. Watts are watts, but volts are oomph. The volts push the electrons/amps. So... I bet you can tell. Interesting theory QuikWgn. But when you add a constant, like the e-juice, the variables change. Like... how much surface area of xx Ω atty coil at yy degrees can evaporate 1 drop of e-juice per second. So.... you have to have different watts for different coils to keep the vaporization rate the same since their surface areas are different to (change the ohms). Thus, even tho the watts are the same in your example, the coil characteristics may not be. In theory, they all "dump" xx watts into the juice. In practice, I think their efficiency varies a bit.

Of course, I would guess the real difference is that the smaller lower voltage devices are often amp restricted since lower volts = higher amps for a given wattage.

And of course, too bad they made it a pen style.