enmeshed in indecision

[TrueNorthist]

I'm an old time toodle puffer. MTL, single coil stick in the mud. I have 4, yes 4 kanger subtanks that I love-- but these times, they are a changin'.

The two or three brain cells that survived the 1970s tell me: why change anything? The paleolithic tanks you use work fine. Shut up. Fool.

But I'm always seeking to appear hip and with it, so I have dived deep into the realm of tanks, yet again, to go with my new aegis legend due to arrive next week.

I am all but ready to pull the pin on a VV Kylin M, but as always I doubt my own instincts when it comes to vape gear.

Is the switch to mesh the real deal? I remember asking this about TC, and subsequently buying a rouleaux rx200 that I still use daily, but this is different. It's like asking if god prefers blondes.

What say ye? Mesh, or not to mesh? So help you God!

 

[Izan]

Hi mate,

IMO, Mesh and MTL are not friends.

However, if the price is good and you have a way to sell on the Kylin if you don't like it...give it a try.

Cheers
I

 

[TrueNorthist]

That's disappointing... I grow weary of being left behind by my ancient ways.

Would it be too much to ask precisely why mesh is less than optimal for mtl? Is it a matter of adjusting a few parameters and adapting ?

 

[bombastinator]

That's disappointing... I grow weary of being left behind by my ancient ways.

Would it be too much to ask precisely why mesh is less than optimal for mtl? Is it a matter of adjusting a few parameters and adapting ?

All of them. They act a bit like super Claptons. More surface area, less mass. Sort of the opposite of what you vape now. I personally would put you in a zenith tank. It’s got cartridges like you’re used to, but it will vape much more like the stuff you vape now. A legend mod will last you days between charges with one of those.

It might turn out you like the mesh though. Stranger things have happened.

You’re going to want to use a much lower nic than you normally do for the mesh tank though. It will put out multiple times as much vapor so the nic concentration has to be reduced accordingly.

 

[TrueNorthist]

Thanks for that. I shall sally forth and buy a drawer full of various mesh like objects. I like drawers full of vape stuff. After nearly 9 years at this I have several drawers full of vape stuff. And boxes of vape stuff. What can I say, I like stuff.

But I am used to adapting, both the devices and my methods. It's all part of the joy's of vaping. Canvape graciously included with my order a Vype with a pod, which was good, because I had sworn off pods, for reasons others eloquently state.

But it just so happened that the day the order arrived via Canada Toast I had struggled with a build -- entirely owing to increasingly poor eyesight and all but now completely absent manual dexterity. I was ready for the pod.

Pods are like one of those electric scooters that one always encounters clogging up the aisles at the liquor store. Essential for getting (or forgetting) about as one's body takes a nosedive, only slightly easier to maneuver around with a jacket stuffed with shoplifted rotgut.

But I will buy the VV Kylin M, plus various types of screens and fiddle. I like to fiddle -- and shoplift, which is damned near impossible at Amazon.

Edit: Hey! I fingered out the like button! Surely it gets easy now.

 

[DeloresRose]

All of them. They act a bit like super Claptons. More surface area, less mass. Sort of the opposite of what you vape now. I personally would put you in a zenith tank. It’s got cartridges like you’re used to, but it will vape much more like the stuff you vape now. A legend mod will last you days between charges with one of those.

It might turn out you like the mesh though. Stranger things have happened.

You’re going to want to use a much lower nic than you normally do for the mesh tank though. It will put out multiple times as much vapor so the nic concentration has to be reduced accordingly.

I have the Zenith and it’s okay, not something I would recommend or buy more of.

I also have the Zlide, and I really love it.

Zlide Sub-ohm Tank by Innokin

Plex 3D Replacement Coil 0.48ohm - 5-Pack

It may be due to the coils though, not sure, but o think you can use the plex 3d in either tank.

Full disclosure, I’m mostly DL, but I use mtl ( usually grudgingly) when I need to be less conspicuous with my vape. The Zlide does not make me feel like I’m settling for less though, and I’m still on my first coil, about 30 mls of juice so far.

 

[wetclay]

Mesh as others said is not MTL. I'm positive they will come up with MTL high(er) ohm mesh tanks at some point in the future. Just like they came up with MTL superfine claptons. I'm waiting for that to dive in.
But subtanks are not MTL to me either. So maybe you can give mesh a try. There is one RTA or RBA that takes mesh as well as regular coils. If mesh doesn't work for you you can use it with regular coils...Mental block... I can't remember which one. I'm sure someone will come to rescue.

 

[vaper1960]

Get a Innokin Zenith or Zlide... try different coils (they both use the same coils) Say hi to HAL.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Given the low mass of mesh, power can be dialed down, thus reducing vapor production. Air flow in a typical mesh atomizer may not mimic that of the Kanger tanks the OP is using, but can be dialed to redistrict and a change of drip tips could extend that even further.

Perhaps not used as it was designed, but this is giving a very satisfying MTL vape. Wotofo Profile Unity Mesh RTA running a whoppin’ 0.12 ohm mesh strip at 25 watts!

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Would it be too much to ask precisely why mesh is less than optimal for mtl? Is it a matter of adjusting a few parameters and adapting ?

Because people seem to be fixated on MTL requires a high resistance coil. If being used on a fixed voltage device this would be 100% correct. Resistance would dictate the power output. But with a regulated device, resistance is irrelevant – the user is in control of the power output.

The reason why MTL uses high(er) resistance coils is due to the gauge of the wire which results in a lower mass coil. Lower the mass, the less power is needed. One can build a 1 ohm coil out of 24 awg wire - as it is presumed, it’s resistance would suit MTL vaping. But it does not. Its mass dictates a significant amount of power is needed to heat up and its high surface area would produce a significant amount of vapor due to that applied power. So to lower the needed power, and vapor production we use a higher gauge wire that is less in mass and results in a smaller coil.

Mesh is extremely low in mass. The mesh strip I used above is the equivalent of a 28 awg Kanthal coil, 6 wraps around a 2.5mm ID which has a resistance of approx. 1.15 ohms (according to Steam Engine). It too would require similar power to vape. Mesh does have a high(ish) surface area, but by reducing the power, you also reduce the vapor production.

I fail to see why mesh could not be utilized for an MTL vape. Unfortunately, current mesh atomizers are designed with high air flow in mind. They do allow adjustment to restrict this, which could be extended even further with a more restricted drip tip, but not to the point of a typical MTL atty. That is of course assuming one likes super restricted air flow (sucking a golf ball through a garden hose!). None the less, they could still be used for MTL vaping.

 

[TrueNorthist]

I have the Zenith and it’s okay, not something I would recommend or buy more of.

I also have the Zlide, and I really love it.

Zlide Sub-ohm Tank by Innokin

Plex 3D Replacement Coil 0.48ohm - 5-Pack

It may be due to the coils though, not sure, but o think you can use the plex 3d in either tank.

Full disclosure, I’m mostly DL, but I use mtl ( usually grudgingly) when I need to be less conspicuous with my vape. The Zlide does not make me feel like I’m settling for less though, and I’m still on my first coil, about 30 mls of juice so far.

I'll be sure to pop back in here and let you know what I find. Also how the mesh thingy is going.

Get a Innokin Zenith or Zlide... try different coils (they both use the same coils) Say hi to HAL.

Actually, the name is LAH and she's locked me out, again... At least this time I don't need a helmet. Just the van so I can live down by the river!

Given the low mass of mesh, power can be dialed down, thus reducing vapor production. Air flow in a typical mesh atomizer may not mimic that of the Kanger tanks the OP is using, but can be dialed to redistrict and a change of drip tips could extend that even further.

Perhaps not used as it was designed, but this is giving a very satisfying MTL vape. Wotofo Profile Unity Mesh RTA running a whoppin’ 0.12 ohm mesh strip at 25 watts!

View attachment 842665

Hey I heard that.

Because people seem to be fixated on MTL requires a high resistance coil. If being used on a fixed voltage device this would be 100% correct. Resistance would dictate the power output. But with a regulated device, resistance is irrelevant – the user is in control of the power output.

The reason why MTL uses high(er) resistance coils is due to the gauge of the wire which results in a lower mass coil. Lower the mass, the less power is needed. One can build a 1 ohm coil out of 24 awg wire - as it is presumed, it’s resistance would suit MTL vaping. But it does not. Its mass dictates a significant amount of power is needed to heat up and its high surface area would produce a significant amount of vapor due to that applied power. So to lower the needed power, and vapor production we use a higher gauge wire that is less in mass and results in a smaller coil.

Mesh is extremely low in mass. The mesh strip I used above is the equivalent of a 28 awg Kanthal coil, 6 wraps around a 2.5mm ID which has a resistance of approx. 1.15 ohms (according to Steam Engine). It too would require similar power to vape. Mesh does have a high(ish) surface area, but by reducing the power, you also reduce the vapor production.

I fail to see why mesh could not be utilized for an MTL vape. Unfortunately, current mesh atomizers are designed with high air flow in mind. They do allow adjustment to restrict this, which could be extended even further with a more restricted drip tip, but not to the point of a typical MTL atty. That is of course assuming one likes super restricted air flow (sucking a golf ball through a garden hose!). None the less, they could still be used for MTL vaping.

Now this is just what I needed. Not the golf ball and hose show, but the info on mesh composition. I'm going to enjoy this. Im no longer addicted to nic, rather all the glorious fiddling!

 

[bombastinator]

I'll be sure to pop back in here and let you know what I find. Also how the mesh thingy is going.

Actually, the name is LAH and she's locked me out, again... At least this time I don't need a helmet. Just the van so I can live down by the river!

Hey I heard that.

Now this is just what I needed. Not the golf ball and hose show, but the info on mesh composition. I'm going to enjoy this. Im no longer addicted to nic, rather all the glorious fiddling!

Mesh composition: commercial “mesh”. Really isn’t mesh at all. They’re generally small perforated plates. I have had very good luck using pieces of #200 stainless screen though. It gets dirty faster than the plates, but it’s sooooo much cheaper. Also you can use it for TC. 316L #200 mesh is sold for use in food service grease traps amongst many other things.

 

[vaper1960]

Actually, the name is LAH and she's locked me out, again... At least this time I don't need a helmet. Just the van so I can live down by the river!

I was referring to this:

 

[bombastinator]

I was referring to this:

And here I was thinking your mom had locked you out of the house again.

 

[DeloresRose]

Because people seem to be fixated on MTL requires a high resistance coil. If being used on a fixed voltage device this would be 100% correct. Resistance would dictate the power output. But with a regulated device, resistance is irrelevant – the user is in control of the power output.

The reason why MTL uses high(er) resistance coils is due to the gauge of the wire which results in a lower mass coil. Lower the mass, the less power is needed. One can build a 1 ohm coil out of 24 awg wire - as it is presumed, it’s resistance would suit MTL vaping. But it does not. Its mass dictates a significant amount of power is needed to heat up and its high surface area would produce a significant amount of vapor due to that applied power. So to lower the needed power, and vapor production we use a higher gauge wire that is less in mass and results in a smaller coil.

Mesh is extremely low in mass. The mesh strip I used above is the equivalent of a 28 awg Kanthal coil, 6 wraps around a 2.5mm ID which has a resistance of approx. 1.15 ohms (according to Steam Engine). It too would require similar power to vape. Mesh does have a high(ish) surface area, but by reducing the power, you also reduce the vapor production.

I fail to see why mesh could not be utilized for an MTL vape. Unfortunately, current mesh atomizers are designed with high air flow in mind. They do allow adjustment to restrict this, which could be extended even further with a more restricted drip tip, but not to the point of a typical MTL atty. That is of course assuming one likes super restricted air flow (sucking a golf ball through a garden hose!). None the less, they could still be used for MTL vaping.

When I first started vaping, high resistance equals mtl was kind of the rule. But then, the tanks were built that way, restricted air, tiny drip tips, only coils over an ohm to fit them.

I don’t recall using any tanks back then that didn’t take at least a 1.2, and the one I used most was 1.6.

The dl tanks, I don’t think there were any coils over .5, and a lot were .2-.3.

But now there are lots of cross over tanks, like the Zlide, definitely mtl, but with a .48 ohm coil.

Sometimes we get stuck in our old ways of thinking. They used to say you could only use 3mg/ml juice sub ohm, too, and it took me a long time to get over that.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

When I first started vaping, high resistance equals mtl was kind of the rule. But then, the tanks were built that way, restricted air, tiny drip tips, only coils over an ohm to fit them.

I don’t recall using any tanks back then that didn’t take at least a 1.2, and the one I used most was 1.6.

The dl tanks, I don’t think there were any coils over .5, and a lot were .2-.3.

But now there are lots of cross over tanks, like the Zlide, definitely mtl, but with a .48 ohm coil.

Sometimes we get stuck in our old ways of thinking. They used to say you could only use 3mg/ml juice sub ohm, too, and it took me a long time to get over that.

Back in the day we were bound to technology limitations and had to work within those limitations. The resistance of the coil did determine the output of a voltage source, but the size limitations of the deck/atomizers used meant only high gauge wire could be utilized.

As I pointed out above, one can build a 1 ohm coil out of 24 awg wire – it certainly would not fit in old style tanks, not to mention it’s mass would mean that many (if not all) older voltage sources would not be able to heat the coil to appropriate temperatures. The resistance of 1 ohm follows the limitations of technology of the time, the mass, in this example, exceeds those limitations - therefore we were forced to use high gauge wire.

Vaping may have evolved from when you first started. But the physics behind it has never changed….it can’t change, it will always hold true – unless technology evolves to vaporizing juice by some other means. But if and when that day comes, we will take on a whole new line of physics.

I understand that sometimes we get stuck in our old ways of thinking – am also guilty of that. But it is beneficial to inject fact for it can remind those who may be stuck in old ways, and or educate those who may not understand.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Mesh composition: commercial “mesh”. Really isn’t mesh at all. They’re generally small perforated plates. I have had very good luck using pieces of #200 stainless screen though. It gets dirty faster than the plates, but it’s sooooo much cheaper. Also you can use it for TC. 316L #200 mesh is sold for use in food service grease traps amongst many other things.

Mesh is mesh. Sticking with metal (given the topic). A metal mesh may be woven, knitted, welded, expanded, photo-chemically etched or electroformed. Yes, I stole that from Wiki

#200 is the amount of holes per square inch, but that does not account for the mass of the mesh which will be a contributing factor on what is needed to heat it up. A #200 mesh screen could be woven or electroformed out of a thicker wire or plate of metal. That said, if the same gauge (or thickness) is utilized, the hole count can contribute to the mass. Both the Wotofo branded mesh plate and the NexMESH plate are the same thickness 0.13mm. The Wotofo has a lower hole count which results in less mass than the NexMESH – 33mg vs 39mg respectfully.

 

[TrueNorthist]

Mesh composition: commercial “mesh”. Really isn’t mesh at all. They’re generally small perforated plates. I have had very good luck using pieces of #200 stainless screen though. It gets dirty faster than the plates, but it’s sooooo much cheaper. Also you can use it for TC. 316L #200 mesh is sold for use in food service grease traps amongst many other things.

I spent several seconds last night studying pictures (I like to read the pictures) of mesh materials and boy, did that make it way easier to fall asleep! But there's lots of anecdotal observations floating about the intertubes and I'll review it all, until I'm again captured by the sandman.

And here I was thinking your mom had locked you out of the house again.

She may as well be my mom! She never lets me do anything... I'm reduced to sitting in my highchair screaming, raging and dumping plate after plate of spaghetti on my head. All too no avail.

When I first started vaping, high resistance equals mtl was kind of the rule. But then, the tanks were built that way, restricted air, tiny drip tips, only coils over an ohm to fit them.

I don’t recall using any tanks back then that didn’t take at least a 1.2, and the one I used most was 1.6.

The dl tanks, I don’t think there were any coils over .5, and a lot were .2-.3.

But now there are lots of cross over tanks, like the Zlide, definitely mtl, but with a .48 ohm coil.

Sometimes we get stuck in our old ways of thinking. They used to say you could only use 3mg/ml juice sub ohm, too, and it took me a long time to get over that.

I've been turning .35 to .4Ω titanium microcoils for quite some time. I've gotten so I can do it in my sleep, but my various age related infirmities make it much more difficult as I circle ever closer to the drain.

I refuse to go quietly into that goodnight. I will rage, rage, rage against the machine, until I wink out. Mesh seems pretty ragey...

 

[TrueNorthist]

Mesh is mesh. Sticking with metal (given the topic). A metal mesh may be woven, knitted, welded, expanded, photo-chemically etched or electroformed. Yes, I stole that from Wiki

#200 is the amount of holes per square inch, but that does not account for the mass of the mesh which will be a contributing factor on what is needed to heat it up. A #200 mesh screen could be woven or electroformed out of a thicker wire or plate of metal. That said, if the same gauge (or thickness) is utilized, the hole count can contribute to the mass. Both the Wotofo branded mesh plate and the NexMESH plate are the same thickness 0.13mm. The Wotofo has a lower hole count which results in less mass than the NexMESH – 33mg vs 39mg respectfully.

erm... Wouldn't a lower hole count equate to a higher mass?Not to sound all clever n'stuff, but I seen a book once.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

erm... Wouldn't a lower hole count equate to a higher mass?Not to sound all clever n'stuff, but I seen a book once.

The actual hole count has an equivalent micron value – 200 mesh = will allow 74 microns to pass through it. 100 mesh = 149 microns. So by reducing the hole count, you are increasing the hole.

Poor picture, Wotofo mesh on the left, NexMESH on the right