Evolv sues Joyetech over VW technology !

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IMFire3605

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It depends on the court. Eastern District of Texas is well known for upholding patent rights.

Why Do Patent Trolls Go to Texas? It’s Not for the BBQ

True, Texas is Patent Holder Friendly. However this is being filed in California where JT's US offices are. I've been following Copyright Trolling cases for a couple years, right now, especially the Central California Judicial District has turned very, very cold against Copyright cases. Haven't seen many Patent Cases in any of California's Districts, but looking at the Central District and copyright issues filling dockets there, might be a bit shaky for Evolv to get traction in a hardened down District as that as I have seen.
 

Douggro

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It depends on the court. Eastern District of Texas is well known for upholding patent rights.

Why Do Patent Trolls Go to Texas? It’s Not for the BBQ
That was the case when the article you linked was written in 2014. I quipped earlier in the thread that Evolv chose the venue poorly and should have filed in East Texas. But even those courts, while still moderately receptive and a more favorable venue for plaintiffs, are losing their appeal due to changes in the patent litigation landscape.
 

edyle

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................. I see no reason to disbelieve Evolv when they state that they've purposefully been somewhat lax in enforcing patents historically, but clearly something has occurred which means they now feel they need to do it.......

I ssaw something in the document under JURISDICTION, where they pointed to a joyetech claim.

here it is:
joyetech China
13.
This Court also has personal jurisdiction over Joyetech China because Joyetech China has availed itself of United States District Courts in order to sue defendants in the United States, alleging infringement of Joyetech China’s own alleged intellectual property. In previous third party litigation, Joyetech China has alleged that Joyetech China had “trademark applications for the marks eGo-T (U.S. Serial No. 851477422) and eGo-C (U.S. Serial No. 85451811),” and availing itself of filings with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (“PTO”).
 

Mazinny

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I got that impression because
US PATENT 8820330 is shown printed on a DNA200 board shown in a photo in the document.
Anyone can print anything on any device. '330 is for vw only, not the design of the DNA200 board, or any of it's " bells and whistles " .What Evolv patented is VW, not the further advancements in their products.

We shall see if the courts determine any device in the market using VW, is in violation of their '330 patent, or strike it down based on 'prior art' or 'equitable estoppel' for example.
 

fishwater

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Wow, I really can't believe some of the Evolv "hate" around here. So let me get this straight, if YOU sold an item to a company & then they reverse engineer it & sell a similar product against you then that wouldn't bother you? The income you use to pay your employees, taxes, Insurance, R&D, money that you depend on to live & keep a company going so your employees can live is jeopardized & that is supposed to be ok? Seriously?

So again if I understand some of the sentiment here, if you came into work one day & there was a person doing your job at half your labor rate so now your employer doesn't want to pay you your wage, again that would be ok? To add insult to that say it was you who trained this person how to do "similar" job functions that you were doing before they decided you were no longer worth your hourly wage or salary. I'm sorry, maybe it's just me but none of that would sit well with me.

FWIW, I own an RX200 as well as two DNA200 devices, the performance is (IMO) night & day between the devices. Both of my DNA200 devices are from "pacific rim" manufacturing. It seems those two companies had no problems purchasing a board from Evolv & bringing it to the market at a fair price, more than likely at reduced gross profit but obviously still enough profit to keep the lights on at both companies.
 

badinfluence357

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Big Ants titanium mod, snow wolf, vtc and a bunch of other mods have vw...
Evolvs really mad at the fact that the RX200 having a cheeper chip performs just as good if not better then the DNA200..did it put a dent on the dna200 rx sales? maybe it did.
if the rx200 messes up like plenty of dna boards have in the pass you can toss in the garbage and buy another.. saves us alot of bs and time. maybe this will bring down the price of future boards whice i think is better for us.
plenty of us have put tons of money into vaping. Its time to save a few bucks and enjoy! Forget about corporations greedy nonsense.. good job evolv, good job enjoy, all your contributions are greatly appreciated. Without you guys we would still be vaping out of battery packs and using stacked batteries...peace!!!
 

Ryedan

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Some thoughts.

Firstly, as @Douggro points out above, it's totally out of line to call Evolv patent trolls. Whatever one thinks of the patent system generally, one has to agree that Evolv has acted entirely within the spirit of that system.

They have continuously made their product, sold their product, spent on R&D and brought out new versions. That's NOT patent trolling in any reasonable sense of the phrase.

A patent troll is, fundamentally, a person or organisation which buys up patents with no intention of making the claimed invention, but simply to extort money from those who do. This, to me, needs reforming - there should be a limitation on patents in cases where the owner does not make the claimed invention. But this certainly does not apply in any sense in Evolv's case.

Also, there's a tendency to cast Evolv as somehow malfeasant for patenting something which vapers think is "obvious" - i.e. Wattage control. But that's kinda the point in patents! It may seem obvious 5 years on, but in 2011 it certainly was not, and Evolv changed the way we vape.

Very soon after they started to produce their original DNA, their devices were being copied. Imagine that - you spend a good period of your life R&Ding a device, knowing that there's only a limited period for which you'll be able to profit from it, and some guy with access to cheap labor and components just rips you off.

And I note that there's a tendency to claim that Evolv are simply trying to rip off vapers by making sure that only their (more expensive) devices are sold. This is so disingenuous it's not true. The implication is that a 200watt device with all the bells and whistles is somehow necessary for smokers to stop smoking.

Reality check - this is a TINY proportion of the market. Absolutely minuscule - despite the high visibility of devices like this in the online world, I'd suggest that it's less than 1% of all vape consumers who buy 200 watt devices. It's a niche product within a niche. The idea that people should be able to buy such niche products cheaply is a form of special pleading that simply doesn't apply to other products. Imagine - you want a massive 8K TV right, but you want to pay less for it. Well, you might be able to, in 2 or 3 years time - but right now the manufacturers are going to sell that for a premium to the "innovator" section of the market and make back their R&D and tooling. That's simply what Evolv wish to do, and I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to.

If 200 watts were needed for people to stop smoking, I might think differently, but it's not, so I don't. Evolv have a range of products they sell at a range of prices, and the DNA200 is their current premium. Next year it will be something else. I'd like that to continue, wouldn't everyone?

Well said SJ :thumb:
 
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Mazinny

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https://originvape.com/wp-content/uploads/Origin-Vape-Wismec-Reuleaux-RX200-vs-DNA-200-02.jpg
Origin-Vape-Wismec-Reuleaux-RX200-vs-DNA-200-02.jpg
 
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sofarsogood

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Hon Lik, the guy who invented the modern ecig lost control of his patent and I haven't noticed any lawsuits related to it but I'd bet he's doing okay. He's one of my heros, a guy I'd like to meet someday. The other one I'd like to meet is Gilbert who got the first ecig patent in the '60s using water instead of PG and VG. That patent would certainly have expired by now. I'd give them the Nobel prize in medicine jointly.

The modern ecig, Hon Lik's version, could have been a product in the early 1970's. It would have been based on NiCad's instead of Li's. It would have been bigger, clunkier, no screen, etc. It shows that simple brilliant ideas can be sitting in plain site, long overdue for being discovered.
 
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fishwater

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Big Ants titanium mod, snow wolf, vtc and a bunch of other mods have vw...
Evolvs really mad at the fact that the RX200 having a cheeper chip performs just as good if not better then the DNA200..did it put a dent on the dna200 rx sales? maybe it did.
if the rx200 messes up like plenty of dna boards have in the pass you can toss in the garbage and buy another.. saves us alot of bs and time. maybe this will bring down the price of future boards whice i think is better for us.
plenty of us have put tons of money into vaping. Its time to save a few bucks and enjoy! Forget about corporations greedy nonsense.. good job evolv, good job enjoy, all your contributions are greatly appreciated. Without you guys we would still be vaping out of battery packs and using stacked batteries...peace!!!

That's the problem with all of this, if a large corporation like Joytech continues to cut into the profit of an innovative company like Evolv we won't have the innovation we had that got us out of the stone age of vaping from battery packs to temp control, high watts, etc. Joytech COULD do something innovative but don't choose too at this time. They want to pump out all these throw away mods & use us as beta testers which I believe was the big beef everyone had in the past with Evolv. It takes the little guy with big dreams to bring new technology to the market sometimes, we need company's like Evolv if the big guys won't do it.

Also to say the RX200 performs as good as the DNA200 is incorrect. Maybe if you only vape in VW mode it could be but even then in power mode it is no where near as smooth as the DNA200 chip, never mind the cheapo janky 510 Joytech is using. If you vape in TC with SS or Ti the difference between the RX200 & DNA200 becomes more apparent, it's literally night & day noticeable. No pulsing, no throttling back & true temperature from the DNA200 vs the RX. Again though, none of this is necessary but for those of us who do vape in TC the few extra dollars is well worth it. If Joyech cared enough about what they make I'm sure they could make something with the same performance but again (IMO) they don't care. That's not the end game for them, it's all about mass consumption throw aways. Either way, choice between manufacturers is a good thing, one less chip manufacturer is not what I want to see as a consumer. As always YMMV.
 

Mazinny

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Wow, I really can't believe some of the Evolv "hate" around here. So let me get this straight, if YOU sold an item to a company & then they reverse engineer it & sell a similar product against you then that wouldn't bother you? The income you use to pay your employees, taxes, Insurance, R&D, money that you depend on to live & keep a company going so your employees can live is jeopardized & that is supposed to be ok? Seriously?

.
I don't hate Evolv. If the RX200 board is a counterfeit of the DNA200 board, i would be bothered too. That's a matter i am not qualified to comment on.

If Evolov has issues with the RX200, sue on that basis. Evolv however is accusing the entire product lineup of Joyetech/Wismec/Eleaf , of being in violation of their '330 patent i.e VW.

They claimed at the time, the only reason they patented VW was so someone else wouldn't do it and use it to troll other companies. In Evolv's own words, they had absolutely no interest in going after anyone else's VV/VW stuff unless it's a direct counterfeit of an Evolv board.
 

fishwater

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I don't hate Evolv. If the RX200 board is a counterfeit of the DNA200 board, i would be bothered too. That's a matter i am not qualified to comment on.

If Evolov has issues with the RX200, sue on that basis. Evolv however is accusing the entire product lineup of Joyetech/Wismec/Eleaf , of being in violation of their '330 patent i.e VW.

They claimed at the time, the only reason they patented VW was so someone else wouldn't do it and use it to troll other companies. In Evolv's own words, they had absolutely no interest in going after anyone else's VV/VW stuff unless it's a direct counterfeit of an Evolv board.

Agreed on most of your points but while I also think it's ridiculous for Evolv to name all the other mods as being a patent infringement I'm sure there is a legal reason as mentioned earlier in this thread for doing so. I'm not going to try & play armchair lawyer with this but if I'm not mistaken I don't believe Joyech had a 200 watt chip before their relationship with Evolv. Especially not one with a similar button layout touting the same features as the DNA200.
 

Mazinny

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Agreed on most of your points but while I also think it's ridiculous for Evolv to name all the other mods as being a patent infringement I'm sure there is a legal reason as mentioned earlier in this thread for doing so. I'm not going to try & play armchair lawyer with this but if I'm not mistaken I don't believe Joyech had a 200 watt chip before their relationship with Evolv. Especially not one with a similar button layout touting the same features as the DNA200.
Fair enough.

The legal reason may be that they never patented the DNA200 board. Even if they had, i'm not an expert on circuit boards, but the two boards don't look too similar to me.
 
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Topwater Elvis

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You cannot bring suit against a single model or select certain models if other or all models from the same entity share the same *insert whatever your patent protects here.*
Looks have nothing to do with it.

The patent covers all their products from the Darwin to the dna200 ---> Evolv Intellectual Propery
 

Ryedan

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I don't hate Evolv. If the RX200 board is a counterfeit of the DNA200 board, i would be bothered too. That's a matter i am not qualified to comment on.

If Evolov has issues with the RX200, sue on that basis. Evolv however is accusing the entire product lineup of Joyetech/Wismec/Eleaf , of being in violation of their '330 patent i.e VW.

They claimed at the time, the only reason they patented VW was so someone else wouldn't do it and use it to troll other companies. In Evolv's own words, they had absolutely no interest in going after anyone else's VV/VW stuff unless it's a direct counterfeit of an Evolv board.

There is a post on Reddit (the 11'th post here) that summarizes the sequence of events leading up to Evolv's suit. From that post:

"November 2015, Irvine California:

Joytech: DNA200 board is too expensive, we're gonna release a cheaper version of the chip with the same power

Evolv: We own the patent for VW, we can agree on licensing!

Joyetech: Show us the patent please!

Evolv: There you go!

Joytech: Nope, [edited by Ryedan], we're releasing the cheaper board AND selling it to manufacturers as direct competition!"

That pretty much agrees with what is in the lawsuit, but it's much easier for me to just quote what is already out there than summarize it myself :)

I don't see anything wrong with Evolv using their VW patent to pursue this issue with. A well executed patent is expensive and if you already have your technology protected by an existing patent why waste your money on a new one? Evolv has never used the patent against anyone not in direct competition with their products and I think if they had wanted to they could have tried. There is more to it than that, but considering that Joyetech went ahead and sold their boards after their communication with Evolv is enough for me to wish Evolv well in this.
 

Mazinny

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There is a post on Reddit (the 11'th post here) that summarizes the sequence of events leading up to Evolv's suit. From that post:

"November 2015, Irvine California:

Joytech: DNA200 board is too expensive, we're gonna release a cheaper version of the chip with the same power

Evolv: We own the patent for VW, we can agree on licensing!

Joyetech: Show us the patent please!

Evolv: There you go!

Joytech: Nope, [edited by Ryedan], we're releasing the cheaper board AND selling it to manufacturers as direct competition!"

That pretty much agrees with what is in the lawsuit, but it's much easier for me to just quote what is already out there than summarize it myself :)

I don't see anything wrong with Evolv using their VW patent to pursue this issue with. A well executed patent is expensive and if you already have your technology protected by an existing patent why waste your money on a new one? Evolv has never used the patent against anyone not in direct competition with their products and I think if they had wanted to they could have tried. There is more to it than that, but considering that Joyetech went ahead and sold their boards after their communication with Evolv is enough for me to wish Evolv well in this.
I don't dispute the fact that Evolv has a patent on VW. I have read Evolvs version of " the series of events " and i will wait to hear Joyetechs version as well.

It seems to me that Evolv has nothing to go on legally though, except the VW patent. Nothing specific to the RX200. If the patent is upheld it could be used against any VW device at Evolvs discretion.

They have no patent on any of their boards.
 

sofarsogood

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Someone shows a quote from Evolve saying they won't use the patent to disrupt the industry. Assume that's accurate and they mean it. So they could promise if they win the right to license the technology claims in the patent they promise to put 80-90% of the proceeds into a private foundation that will be dedicated to funding research and other not for profit activities for the purpose of improving the safety and effectiveness of vaping for everyone's benefit including the industry, vapers and future vapers. That would fulfill the promise, if they in fact made that promise, and do something historically important. Being rich is cool. Being esteemed and admired is cool. Why not both?
 

Woofer

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If Evolov has issues with the RX200, sue on that basis. Evolv however is accusing the entire product lineup of Joyetech/Wismec/Eleaf , of being in violation of their '330 patent i.e VW.

I doubt one can take action against one infringement and ignore others by the same defendant.

The legal reason may be that they never patented the DNA200 board. Even if they had, i'm not an expert on circuit boards, but the two boards don't look too similar to me.

I doubt it would be possible to get a patent on the board and it would be silly anyway. Chance one component and the patent will not apply. Techniques/methods can be patent and if the method is patent it matters not if they look the same, the question becomes do they function the same.

Go Evolv!
 
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