Evolv sues Joyetech over VW technology !

[Ryedan]

I don't dispute the fact that Evolv has a patent on VW. I have read Evolvs version of " the series of events " and i will wait to hear Joyetechs version as well.

It seems to me that Evolv has nothing to go on legally though, except the VW patent. Nothing specific to the RX200. If the patent is upheld it could be used against any VW device at Evolvs discretion.

They have no patent on any of their boards.

I hear ya, but I don't understand why you think Evolv has nothing to go on legally. The DNA200 is a VW board so it should be covered by a VW patent. Actually, TC could well be considered a VW process that uses TC as an aid to accomplishing VW. If no-one else has a TC specific patent, I don't see the problem with the reasoning.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer never mind one experienced in patent law, so I'll just sit back and watch the show. It will give us all something to chat about while we're waiting for the outcome and that's OK by me

Suing for patent infringement is a business decision for a company. There are new suits started every day, it's quite common. I wonder what percentage end up in court.

 

[Mazinny]

I don't have a problem with Evolv getting a few pennies from every mod sold using VW, if indeed the patent is upheld.

But their complaint is incoherent at best. They go on and on about the series of events that culminated with the introduction of RX200 to the market, but the entire legal basis for their lawsuit, is VW, a technology available in almost all mods in the market, and a patent they promised not to use unless someone counterfeits their board.

 

[Mazinny]

I hear ya, but I don't understand why you think Evolv has nothing to go on legally. The DNA200 is a VW board so it should be covered by a VW patent. Actually, TC could well be considered a VW process that uses TC as an aid to accomplishing VW. If no-one else has a TC specific patent, I don't see the problem with the reasoning.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer never mind one experienced in patent law, so I'll just sit back and watch the show. It will give us all something to chat about while we're waiting for the outcome and that's OK by me

Suing for patent infringement is a business decision for a company. There are new suits started every day, it's quite common. I wonder what percentage end up in court.

I didn't claim they don't have a legal basis, i said it is based solely on VW, nothing specific to the RX200.

 

[IMFire3605]

Another factor not being taken into account here, is Evolv should have known better than to get into bed with Joyetech. Look at the relationship between Ovale and Joyetech years ago, original Evic Tube mod, the Ego battery prior to that, Ovale designed it, Joyetech manufactured it for Ovale, then cloned it and began producing their own under their own name, where is Ovale today, China company cloning and undercutting another China company they were partnered with. I seen it coming that Joyetech would go to far, yet still, price point between the two boards are a canyon apart, personally I'm waiting for Joyetech's reply if at all, and sitting here wondering if Yihi is taking note of this being in my personal opinion their chipsets/boards have regularly outperformed the Evolv chipsets/boards and have had less issues. To me, this a similar fight arising like "Anonymous vs. Church of Scientology", let the little kiddie games be played.

Personally I still stand, we have world wide political fights to worry about before we go into tearing each other down and out of the game.

 

[Mazinny]

Fun side note....you can tell the Republicans from the Democrats by reading this thread.

Or perhaps more accurately, who's a Trumpite and who isn't.

 

[Rizzyking]

I just don't understand why evolv is doing this now to be honest and you cannot blame anyone for thinking there are games going on. If joyetech are found to have taken evolv proprietary technology and cloned it then by all means hammer joyetech it's what is right and proper. Before the RX200 was released both evolv and joyetech commented on the shortage of dna200 boards and joyetech took the decision to release a cheaper 200 watt mod probably because they had a great many mod housings sitting around. Sorry but don't tell me the popularity of the RX200 isn't a factor here, but if evolv think that more dna200's would have sold if there was never the RX200 is stupid they cater to different segments of the market I doubt evolv lost many sales at all

As for why there is "hate" towards evolv well while many may be happy with their evolv products there are many whose experience with evolv has been the absolute opposite of good spanning from the dna20 days upto the dna200. From a practical business point of view this case is a mistake if they win they are highly unlikely to see a penny from the case and non US vape company's will leave the US market having no presence in the US but likely still selling via fasttech and other digital outlets US vapers will suffer and evolv won't get a huge upsurge in business in fact if you remove the Chinese company's there will be a significant drop in dna200 choices. If they lose it will have cost them a fortune, increased dislike of the company and may lower their customer base and I think they will lose prior art is going to sink them because they haven't done anything in apv's that hasn't been done before in many other areas.

As a Brit this won't affect me in anyway at all and as such have no concern in the game at all but this was a topic of conversation tonight in a social group I belong too (yes i know not relevent). While there may be technical merits to evolv's case it was the general consensus in practical real world terms this is a gamble and an unnecessary one at that at a time where their time and effort might be better used elsewhere.

 

[Romenov]

anyone open an Rx200 and check the board? but there should have nothing we can found on it..

 

[badinfluence357]

Understood, but in this case it isn't a cloning issue. Evolv didnt own or make the design for the Rx.

Parts were purchased from them to make a mod. Modders do it all the time and they make the mods with whatever board they see fit. It doest give rights to the board supplyers just because the modder decided to make the same mod with a diffrent chip.
so maybe Evlov should sue Yihi too, their boards are vw, tc etc...
It will never end!

 

[BackDoc]

Trump.........

 

[mcclintock]

VW is a simple concept but that doesn't make it unpatentable. Power limits are known, but usually if someone wants to control something to taste, they use VV or occasionally variable current (e.g. LEDs). I would argue that VW in real time such as disclosed in their patent is unobvious for vaping because it's stupid. So stupid it sticks out and makes TC obvious to anyone who thinks about it a while: Using real time VW with a heating wire that increases resistance with temperature would undermine its natural tendency to regulate temperature when driven by constant voltage. Most makers reduce or eliminate changes in voltage during the hit to avoid unpredictable effects from contact resistance.

Choosing power instead of voltage is a convenience feature. It is all the more useful with TC, but only because it helps deal with coils that run at unfamiliar voltages and whose resistance is a moving target. Evolv's patent doesn't mention TC in any respect, however. Circuit boards can not be patented except for the functions embodied (unless they are used as part of the appearance of a product could get a design patent, but then there is nothing about the function).

They claimed at the time, the only reason they patented VW was so someone else wouldn't do it and use it to troll other companies. In Evolv's own words, they had absolutely no interest in going after anyone else's VV/VW stuff unless it's a direct counterfeit of an Evolv board.

That's one of the messed up aspects of the patent system. I've been involved in the patent office side and also am a designer and inventor. As much as I'd like to have patent protection of an invention of mine, the idea that a lawyer can say anything about something I design makes me want to not bother.

 

[BackDoc]

And I'm an independent conservative, I've departed from the republicrat nonsense

 

[Ryedan]

I didn't claim they don't have a legal basis, i said it is based solely on VW, nothing specific to the RX200.

Just trying to understand what you mean Mazinny. Why would it be better for Evolv if their patent was specific to the RX200 instead of VW in general?

 

[wheelie]

Thread was allot of reading! Three years of vaping and over 30 mods and 50 tanks in the house I am well supplied for many years. But I will say Joyetech is light years ahead of other vape mod companies these days. I have never owned a DNA. eVic VTC series and Cuboid are assume mods. May have to buy another Cuboid to store away with all my others. Never did buy a RX200 because or the price of six batteries when I already have lots of twined batteries. LOL

 

[Mazinny]

Just trying to understand what you mean Mazinny. Why would it be better for Evolv if their patent was specific to the RX200 instead of VW in general?

From a legal stand point, the vw patent might be too overly broad and there may be a 'prior art' exception as discussed earlier in the thread.

There is also the previous proclamations of Evolv re. their reasons for filing for a vw patent. This may satisfy the first requirement for Equitable Estoppel to bar their lawsuit.

1. the patentee, through misleading conduct (or silence), leads the alleged infringer to reasonably infer that the patentee does not intend to enforce its patent against the alleged infringer;
2. the alleged infringer relies on that conduct; and
3. the alleged infringer will be materially prejudiced if the patentee is allowed to proceed with its claim.

From a personal point of view, something about Evolv holding the patent in their back pocket, to use selectively, as a negotiating tactic, or threat, rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Ryedan]

From a legal stand point, the vw patent might be too overly broad and there may be a 'prior art' exception as discussed earlier in the thread.

There is also the previous proclamations of Evolv re. their reasons for filing for a vw patent. This may satisfy the first requirement for Equitable Estoppel to bar their lawsuit.

1. the patentee, through misleading conduct (or silence), leads the alleged infringer to reasonably infer that the patentee does not intend to enforce its patent against the alleged infringer;
2. the alleged infringer relies on that conduct; and
3. the alleged infringer will be materially prejudiced if the patentee is allowed to proceed with its claim.

Thanks Mazinny, I understand now. I expect all parties involved understand the complexities of the case at this point. It will be interesting to see how it turns out

From a personal point of view, something about Evolv holding the patent in their back pocket, to use selectively, as a negotiating tactic, or threat, rubs me the wrong way.

I think I understand why you might feel that way, but I look at it from another angle. If Evolv had tried to use their VW patent any time they could have, I would have considered that legal but not as ethical as what they have done. It would also likely have held back the product development in VW mods that we've seen the last few years. I just can't think badly of them for using the patent selectively in an ethical manner.

Just want to add also, I'm not a fanboy of any company. I consider the DNA200 the most advanced board on the market today, but I don't need the technology myself. I don't use TC at all these days. I have one DNA40 mod with one of the early boards that has been flawless. I also have a clone DNA40 which has also been flawless. Two of my mods have YiHi boards in them and I have one RX200. Love the three batteries and the shape is a lot more stable than the typical 2 batt mod, but I would not have bought a Wismec DNA200 for the price they're asking just for that. I also don't like the way Evolv has pushed out new boards without enough beta testing. That would make me quite cautious with anything new they put on the market if I was interested in it.

I look at this situation in a bigger picture way. Evolv has a patent on VW. They said they wouldn't use it in unethical ways and have done that so far. They gave Joyetech fair warning that their planned product infringed Evolv's patent and offered to license the tech to them. Joyetech went ahead without an agreement, got a significant market share from their action and Evolv is now suing them. I think it's a good business decision for Evolv and I'm good with it . Might also shake up the cloning tree a bit in the ecig world and that might also benefit vaping in the long run.

 

[Mazinny]

I think I understand why you might feel that way, but I look at it from another angle. If Evolv had tried to use their VW patent any time they could have, I would have considered that legal but not as ethical as what they have done. It would also likely have held back the product development in VW mods that we've seen the last few years. I just can't think badly of them for using the patent selectively in an ethical manner.

There's clearly a back story as to why Evolv are suing Joyetech now. We have heard Evolv's side, and i will wait to hear the other sides explanation, before deciding who acted ethically and who didn't.

Does it not bother you that they were willingly doing business with a company who was (allegedly) violating their patent, across a wide range of products, with no issues. Now that the RX200 is taking market share away from their flagship product, they have an issue with all Wismec/Joyetech/Eleaf/iSmoka products ? Why is the use of VW in RX200 any more egregious than the use of VW in almost all non-mech mods nfrom every vendor in the industry.

Like i said, i will wait to hear the other side of the story.

 

[badinfluence357]

I'm off this....goodnight

 

[Ryedan]

There's clearly a back story as to why Evolv are suing Joyetech now. We have heard Evolv's side, and i will wait to hear the other sides explanation, before deciding who acted ethically and who didn't.

Yup, there are always two side to any story. If anything surfaces that I feel is unethical from Evolv's side I'll change my opinion accordingly

Does it not bother you that they were willingly doing business with a company who was (allegedly) violating their patent, across a wide range of products, with no issues. Now that the RX200 is taking market share away from their flagship product, they have an issue with all Wismec/Joyetech/Eleaf/iSmoka products ?

No it doesn't.

I worked for a large multinational American manufacturer for a couple of decades. I've seen my company sue a supplier and still go on buying from them. My company was sued by a retailer once, business stopped completely between the two and then a few years later resumed again. I've seen a large contractor ask for and get a substantial amount of money to cover damage from a possible problem with one of our products even though there was no lawsuit and no solid eveidence that our product was to blame. Had we not paid, our custommer would have moved to the competition and that was enough of a threat to our business to make us pay. There were no hard feelings involved, at least not at my lower management level.

Disputes between business partners that end up in lawsuits happen all the time. Business is business and doesn't always follow the same social codes as personal relationships do.

Why is the use of VW in RX200 any more egregious than the use of VW in almost all non-mech mods nfrom every vendor in the industry.

Because the RX200 board is in direct competition with Evolv's DNA200. None of the other VW boards on the market are in that boat.

Evolv probably found it advantageous to include all Joyetech's VW products in the lawsuit. I'm sure they are listening to their lawyers and doing what is best for them, as are the folks at Joyetech.

 

[f1vefour]

So what Remedy is Evolv seeking?

They are seeking not only monetary damages, they state after Joyetech saturated the market with inexpensive copies without licensing the IP Joyetech tried to backtrack and agree to pay licensing.

Evolv declines to license to Joyetech but agrees to continue providing the DNA200 to Joyetech/Wismec.

Meaning, we are suing you anyway. We want the RX200, Cuboid, VaporFlask Stout..etc off the market.

What brought this on, the RX200 started it...Evolv losing VaporFlask sealed the deal.

 

[Douggro]

Fun side note....you can tell the Republicans from the Democrats by reading this thread.

Don't see how that's remotely relevant, other than trying to stir a pot up by inserting politico into the discussion. And for the record, I'm an Independent who believes that legitimate protection of patented property is a fundamental necessity for business. I've just been soured by the amount of litigation by entities who invented nothing, bought patents with questionable basis and began suing or threatening to sue anyone and everyone they thought infringed on their patent. AKA, patent trolls. But I've not asserted that's what Evolv is doing here. They make product. They sell it. They've patented some of it. They're suing to protect their rights under the law. I just have questions regarding the validity of their patent and how well it will stand up to full legal scrutiny.

Does it not bother you that they were willingly doing business with a company who was (allegedly) violating their patent, across a wide range of products, with no issues. Now that the RX200 is taking market share away from their flagship product, they have an issue with all Wismec/Joyetech/Eleaf/iSmoka products ? Why is the use of VW in RX200 any more egregious than the use of VW in almost all non-mech mods nfrom every vendor in the industry.

Like i said, i will wait to hear the other side of the story.

This was something that had me slightly perplexed as well: Evolv is selling their DNA200 boards to JT who are also selling several lines of other product that use the "infringing" technology and it's not an issue until JT says that they're taking the Reuleaux chassis and putting their own board in it, and that's when the fur hits the fan?
I can't dismiss the possibility that the timing was purely coincidental - anything is possible, after all - but the chain of events points to Evolv already not being happy with the situation, and the tussle over the Reuleaux sealed the deal for taking legal action.

I found that the filing reads somewhat like it was written by an upset teenager, throwing unrelated justifications at their argument in an attempt to add gravity to it..