Explosion at Vape Blast

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tayone415

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I agree with you; I got here in January, started vaping in February, and pretty close to first starting out, I became interested in mech mods because of the potentially impending "vapocalypse" -- but I read the battery safety article in the ECF library, and began to realize that I was dealing with something potentially very dangerous, and considering that I knew exactly nothing about electricity, building coils, or any of the other aspects of being a safe vaper, I figured it would be better to wait, and learn, and grow a lot more familiar with vaping in general, and removable-battery mods in particular. So I stayed with regulated mods until earlier this month, when I finally got a mech, because I felt I had become familiar enough with safety issues related to these things that I would be able to operate it safely. And just now, my vapemail arrived -- a charger with a digital display which shows a battery's charge, so I no longer have to use a regulated mod just to know how much charge a battery contains.

All of vaping is a do-it-yourself project -- we choose to vape instead of smoke; we choose to advance beyond cigalikes; we choose to advance even past regulated to the mech world -- that being the case, it's incumbent on the users of these devices to LEARN to handle them safely. If they aren't prepared to read and learn, then they really ought to stay with cigalikes, because as you rightly point out, even regulated mods have their dangers -- they have vent holes too, for what should now be very obvious reasons!

Andria
Exactly, before I bought my first mechanical mod and RDA I researched using the search button and using google, until I felt comfortable enough to make the jump.

How do you think many people found ECF in the first place, possibly they had a problem with their device, or were researching it before they bought and stumbled upon ECF from doing a google search or a similar search engine.
 

tayone415

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It is certainly not my job to chase after every new user out there to give them a safety lesson. I wouldn't even want to try as I don't use mech's, or high watt regulated. The basic philosophy of the company that makes my device is "If you push the bottom your safe".
That was my solution, and the only real advice I could give someone I would feel secure with.

The point I was making is that we have created a culture (or at least a sub-culture) that pushes the extremes while claiming to have reached vaping nirvana. It is really trying to push the fringe, with its much higher risk factor, into the mainstream. The fact that this happened at a cloud contest is no small irony that appears to have gone over the heads of nearly everyone. The extremes are being pushed from the top down and the community has a lot of blame in this.

One of the basic problems with mech's is that the responsibility for safety is placed completely on the user. Most of the devices are designed for best case scenario. If you do everything right (and there is a long list of checks), you should be okay. In order to be called safe a device has to be designed for the worst case scenario. What happens with things go wrong (there is a long list). Very few people have the expertise, and time and patience to do mech's correctly.
No it's not your job to chase and advise every new user about safety. But, it's not anyone's else's job either on ECF, unless they are being paid to do so. If asked if a mech is safe by anyone on ECF or out in real life, I will always tell them it's only as safe as you are and how you make, and some people I know I tell them you're not even close to ready for one.

I'll admit I posted in a couple of the links you posted and didn't mention any safety in 2 of them. Why? Because one OP was looking for a replacement mech and was using a kayfun so he should know better already owning a mod and being a member.

The other one just asked about trying to drill a 3rd hole on a stillarr clone, and I advised him not to. He didn't say if he was using a mech or a regulated device like a dna 20/30 etc he mentioned ohms so he might have some idea. But, before I even had a chnce to talk to the OP about anything safety related or about anything at all he logged off and hasn't posted since.
 

Ozwald

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Well I have read all this, of course; but my mind just does not retain things of this nature -- I can play Jeopardy with the best of 'em, but math? Complete ....... (I suspect this is part of my inability to retain any understanding of football.) If the letters corresponded to the actual words we use, I could retain it better, as a mnemonic, but with the letters having no instant correlation to the words, it just won't stick. So if I want to know a given figure in that equation, I just use my steam-engine calculator, supply the values I know, and let it figure out the others for me. I understand the *concepts* -- more or less -- just not the actual math. At my current age of 53, I doubt my grasp of math will ever improve; my brain grasps words and language almost instinctively, but numbers, equations... not so much. I'm really good at arithmetic and budgeting, though. :D

Andria

I just remember the intensity thing from one of my first electronics classes. High voltage isn't dangerous, high amperage is what kills you. The amps are the intense factor. We were playing around with some breadboards, building some basic circuits the instructor showed us to prove the point. We spent the rest of the day zapping each other with 20kV. I forget the current off hand, but it was only something like 20mA or so. You got a pretty good jolt, but it wasn't painful at all.

The hose analogy is the other way to think about it. Volts is volume, Amps is how hard that volume is moving. Imagine a big fat firehose under low pressure vs those tiny water jets that can cut diamonds. Amps is intensity. The firehose has more 'voltage' even if it's barely coming out. It's the tiny water jet that will take off your finger though.
 

zoiDman

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No it's not your job to chase and advise every new user about safety. But, it's not anyone's else's job either on ECF, unless they are being paid to do so. ...

In an Unregulated Market, it is No Ones Job to Advise People about Safety. But that is Not to Say that it Can Not or Should Not be Done.

I have Never liked the Approach of those who have the Least should be the Ones who Do the Most.

I, Like Many/Most, try to Promote Safety here on the ECF. And am Willing to Answer Question or Point Out tings that could be Problems. But How Many People do I Interact with in a Given Day? Compared with a e-Cigarette/e-Liquid Retail Web Site?

What I would Like to see is More Retailers Including Information and Videos on their Sites about Battery/Mod Safety (as Well as Consumer Advocacy).

I thought I heard that the Cloud Contest at Vape Blast was Cancelled and in it's place, an Impromptu Presentation about Battery Safe was done in its place. Not saying that the Battery Safety Presentation was Bad. I just think it is a Shame that we have to have a Mod Explode to get someone thinking that this is Something that should be Included.

Retailer have the Potential to Reach Many More Vapers than ECF Members do. Because a Small Fraction of Vapers are Active Members of the ECF.

Retailers also have a Vested Interest in Safety. Because when a Battery they Sell a Consumer Explodes, there is a Good Chance that the Retailer who Sold it could be Sued. Having Battery Safety Information on a Retailers Site is Not Only Good for the Consumer. It is Also a way to CYA when it comes to Potential Litigation.

So it is kinda a Win-Win. And Everyone can Benefit from it.
 

rondasherrill

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I just remember the intensity thing from one of my first electronics classes. High voltage isn't dangerous, high amperage is what kills you. The amps are the intense factor. We were playing around with some breadboards, building some basic circuits the instructor showed us to prove the point. We spent the rest of the day zapping each other with 20kV. I forget the current off hand, but it was only something like 20mA or so. You got a pretty good jolt, but it wasn't painful at all.

The hose analogy is the other way to think about it. Volts is volume, Amps is how hard that volume is moving. Imagine a big fat firehose under low pressure vs those tiny water jets that can cut diamonds. Amps is intensity. The firehose has more 'voltage' even if it's barely coming out. It's the tiny water jet that will take off your finger though.

I know this is off-topic, but this always bothers me a little bit. "Volts don't kill, current does" is kind of a broken myth. Both voltage & current work together.
1kV @ 30A = could be fatal

But at the same time
5V @ 30A = harmless

Current is only an issue if there is enough voltage to overcome the bodies high resistance.
 

AndriaD

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Exactly, before I bought my first mechanical mod and RDA I researched using the search button and using google, until I felt comfortable enough to make the jump.

How do you think many people found ECF in the first place, possibly they had a problem with their device, or were researching it before they bought and stumbled upon ECF from doing a google search or a similar search engine.

That's exactly how I found ECF, but only because I was so absolutely repulsed with drugstore cigalikes, I figured there must be *something* online about something better -- boy was that an understatement. :D

Even for those who just want to lurk -- which I completely do NOT understand! -- there is all kinds of info here, all you have to do is read. Granted, it's a huge forum, but there *is* a search feature, limited as that may be. That limitation in the search feature, though, is why I don't understand the "lurking;" it would have taken me a month or more to figure out that the eRoll was the best starter for me, but simply by asking questions in the new members' forum, I was able to ascertain that within a few days. I was even warned about its limitations, but stuck fast as I was with the idea that the cigarette form-factor was necessary, it really was the best one for me, because it enabled me to see very quickly both the limitations of that particular device, and the possibilities of so many others.

And once I did become interested in mechs, and started asking questions about those, I was directed almost immediately to the Battery Safety article in the library, which clued me in to my own general ignorance, and that it would be very dangerous to proceed with something that potentially dangerous without first remedying the ignorance. No one drives a racecar when they don't yet even have a drivers' license! :)

Andria
 

tj99959

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    I know this is off-topic, but this always bothers me a little bit. "Volts don't kill, current does" is kind of a broken myth. Both voltage & current work together.
    1kV @ 30A = could be fatal

    But at the same time
    5V @ 30A = harmless

    Current is only an issue if there is enough voltage to overcome the bodies high resistance.

    With my intro to electronics, we didn't worry all that much about volts and amps, but Oh-man, that RF was a killer! (there is a 1kw linear in there)

    image003.jpg
     
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    JMarca

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    With my intro to electronics, we didn't worry all that much about volts and amps, but Oh-man, that RF was a killer! (there is a 1kw linear in there)

    image003.jpg

    I haven't seen a beast like that since the late 80s. :)

    Reminds of the old Yaesu FL-2100b HF
    Yaesu FL-2100B/Z Product Reviews

    My grandfather had one of these things in his ham shack (garage) and I remember he used to heat that garage with no problem anytime he turned on his rig.
    Are you a HAM also? If so cordial 73s, KC2**K over and out. :)

    The whole explosion thing getting back on topic... it could have went two ways. It could have exploded or it could have had multiple failures. There is the possibility of an initial switch fail and then followed by a vent fail which lead it from thermal runaway to becoming an absolute pipe bomb with it being unable to vent. Some say venting is scary, well having even a non-combusting IMR or similar battery technology in an enclosed container and letting it vent with no escape... I'd say that's even scarier.
     
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    Ozwald

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    I know this is off-topic, but this always bothers me a little bit. "Volts don't kill, current does" is kind of a broken myth. Both voltage & current work together.
    1kV @ 30A = could be fatal

    But at the same time
    5V @ 30A = harmless

    Current is only an issue if there is enough voltage to overcome the bodies high resistance.

    That was just what I was taught, it's been... let's just say a few years... since I was in classes.

    I haven't seen a beast like that since the late 80s. :)

    Reminds of the old Yaesu FL-2100b HF
    Yaesu FL-2100B/Z Product Reviews

    My grandfather had one of these things in his ham shack (garage) and I remember he used to heat that garage with no problem anytime he turned on his rig.
    Are you a HAM also? If so cordial 73s, KC2VMK over and out. :)

    The whole explosion thing getting back on topic... it could have went two ways. It could have exploded or it could have had multiple failures. There is the possibility of an initial switch fail and then followed by a vent fail which lead it from thermal runaway to becoming an absolute pipe bomb with it being unable to vent. Some say venting is scary, well having even a non-combusting IMR or similar battery technology in an enclosed container and letting it vent with no escape... I'd say that's even scarier.

    I'm a Yaesu nerd too :) FT-897D, FT-7900R, VX-7R & a VX-6R between the shack & the car. I don't post my call sign with non-hams having too easy of access to the databases, but let's just say it starts with an A in 7 land. 73.
     

    tayone415

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    In an Unregulated Market, it is No Ones Job to Advise People about Safety. But that is Not to Say that it Can Not or Should Not be Done.

    I have Never liked the Approach of those who have the Least should be the Ones who Do the Most.

    I, Like Many/Most, try to Promote Safety here on the ECF. And am Willing to Answer Question or Point Out tings that could be Problems. But How Many People do I Interact with in a Given Day? Compared with a e-Cigarette/e-Liquid Retail Web Site?

    What I would Like to see is More Retailers Including Information and Videos on their Sites about Battery/Mod Safety (as Well as Consumer Advocacy).

    I thought I heard that the Cloud Contest at Vape Blast was Cancelled and in it's place, an Impromptu Presentation about Battery Safe was done in its place. Not saying that the Battery Safety Presentation was Bad. I just think it is a Shame that we have to have a Mod Explode to get someone thinking that this is Something that should be Included.

    Retailer have the Potential to Reach Many More Vapers than ECF Members do. Because a Small Fraction of Vapers are Active Members of the ECF.

    Retailers also have a Vested Interest in Safety. Because when a Battery they Sell a Consumer Explodes, there is a Good Chance that the Retailer who Sold it could be Sued. Having Battery Safety Information on a Retailers Site is Not Only Good for the Consumer. It is Also a way to CYA when it comes to Potential Litigation.

    So it is kinda a Win-Win. And Everyone can Benefit from it.

    I wasn't saying people shouldn't give safety advice. I'm usually one of the people giving safety advice and warning new members and new users not to jump in to mechs and linking websites for safety etc. The point was it's no ones job to always be able to try to read in between the lines and automatically bring up safety. What it be nice? Yes, but honestly even the best and most knowledgeable and responsible ECF members, will reply to a thread and forget to mention or bring up safety issues, but it doesn't mean they're to blame if something happened unless they are recommending something that could be dangerous.

    The user needs to do some research on his or her own at the minimum. As example if someone was trying to fix their own car, and didn't know how to do something or what part does what or what part worked, what do people with at least some common sense do? Go online and research and or ask for help. Using a mechanical mod or anything in this world should be researched first.
     

    tayone415

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    That's exactly how I found ECF, but only because I was so absolutely repulsed with drugstore cigalikes, I figured there must be *something* online about something better -- boy was that an understatement. :D

    Even for those who just want to lurk -- which I completely do NOT understand! -- there is all kinds of info here, all you have to do is read. Granted, it's a huge forum, but there *is* a search feature, limited as that may be. That limitation in the search feature, though, is why I don't understand the "lurking;" it would have taken me a month or more to figure out that the eRoll was the best starter for me, but simply by asking questions in the new members' forum, I was able to ascertain that within a few days. I was even warned about its limitations, but stuck fast as I was with the idea that the cigarette form-factor was necessary, it really was the best one for me, because it enabled me to see very quickly both the limitations of that particular device, and the possibilities of so many others.

    And once I did become interested in mechs, and started asking questions about those, I was directed almost immediately to the Battery Safety article in the library, which clued me in to my own general ignorance, and that it would be very dangerous to proceed with something that potentially dangerous without first remedying the ignorance. No one drives a racecar when they don't yet even have a drivers' license! :)

    Andria

    Yes, the search button on ECF can be improved, but you can Google something and see many ECF threads and threads from other forums too. Sub-ohm safety is far from limited on the web. People need to learn how certain things work before using them, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should especially without knowing the consequences. But, somehow some people 18 and older can't understand that electricity and batteries can be dangerous and there's reasons why you don't leave batteries in a car or loose in your pocket or in a purse. Maybe the problem is that many people assume that everyone has some sort of common sense or understanding of something. I know at times people make mistakes and I'm not talking about those situations, but just negligence and stupidity.
     

    zoiDman

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    I wasn't saying people shouldn't give safety advice. I'm usually one of the people giving safety advice and warning new members and new users not to jump in to mechs and linking websites for safety etc. The point was it's no ones job to always be able to try to read in between the lines and automatically bring up safety. What it be nice? Yes, but honestly even the best and most knowledgeable and responsible ECF members, will reply to a thread and forget to mention or bring up safety issues, but it doesn't mean they're to blame if something happened unless they are recommending something that could be dangerous.

    The user needs to do some research on his or her own at the minimum. As example if someone was trying to fix their own car, and didn't know how to do something or what part does what or what part worked, what do people with at least some common sense do? Go online and research and or ask for help. Using a mechanical mod or anything in this world should be researched first.

    Absolutely.

    I just Wish that Retailers would take a Larger Role of Providing Information on Battery/Mod Safety.

    Because the Majority of e-Cigarette Users have Never Heard of the ECF.
     

    DC2

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    Keep in mind that a join date doesn't mean a whole lot. Some people started vaping long before they found ECF (or decided they wanted to join). For myself personally, I read a ton of threads on here before I made an account. Same goes with electrical knowledge - I've seen some peoples' comments suggesting they don't know their stuff about electricity solely based on their join date. Again, speaking only for myself, I went through electronics classes back in high school & I've been an amateur radio operator for a good number of years. A friend of mine that I got vaping quite some time ago still hasn't joined, probably never will. He has a PhD in Astrophysics.

    True, there are neophytes jumping in the deep end way before they should, but I wouldn't automatically assume much of anything solely based on when they joined the forum.
    Generalities are not meant to apply to each and every person, that is why they are generalities.
    But they are good at revealing trends, and in the example given the trend is certainly clear, and definitely true.
     

    DC2

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    I've seen that myself - a member who shall be unnamed with well over 2000 posts, joined in 2011 & is still asking extremely basic questions.
    If I ever start sub-ohming (which I won't) then you'll be seeing a poster with over 18,000 posts asking extremely basic questions.
    Heck, if I even ever start rebuilding (which I hope to God I won't have to) then you'll see the same.
    :)
     
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    tayone415

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    Absolutely.

    I just Wish that Retailers would take a Larger Role of Providing Information on Battery/Mod Safety.

    Because the Majority of e-Cigarette Users have Never Heard of the ECF.
    If you mean retailers, like a B&M there are some great one's I been to that advice safety and things like that, the one I went to and got my first mech and setup told me almost everything I learned first from ECF members and doing my research, but there are many one's that is brought up in new threads pretty often.

    Many stores will just sell anything to anyone. I went to one with a friend who wanted a mech and I told the store not to sell him one, because basically he's not smart enough to even use his ego pen and iclear 16.

    So, some peope should never even touch a MOD but, I doubt you can get every businesses not sell to certain people. Especially online sites, can put a pop up disclaimer and safety this or that and even make you check a box to continue your check out, but like many things most people don't read it, just like installing user agreements and app software most people read nothing.

    While there are many good people out there, that would lose a sale instead of jeopardizing someone's safety, I don't think many are willing to lose money and just have a disclaimer to cover their a** for legal reasons.
     

    DC2

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    I just Wish that Retailers would take a Larger Role of Providing Information on Battery/Mod Safety.
    It is the responsibility of the manufacturers and the retailers to make sure people are at least AWARE that there are dangers involved.
    And those that do not make an effort to do so are being GROSSLY negligent, and are the ones to shoulder the blame.
     

    Keeferes

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    It is the responsibility of the manufacturers and the retailers to make sure people are at least AWARE that there are dangers involved.
    And those that do not make an effort to do so are being GROSSLY negligent, and are the ones to shoulder the blame.
    That's straight bs to me. I don't speak or read Chinese, so even if they did inform me I wouldn't know. It's my responsibility to be aware of safety. As is it each person vaping individualy responsible to be aware of the safety concerns and precautions.
     

    Derack

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    You know what else can be dangerous?Cars,bikes,walking across the road,eating lots of fast food,drinking...you get the point.If someone who doesnt know how to drive crashes their car then whos fault is it?It is definitely not the car dealerships fault,it is the fault of the user.The same applies to ecig safety.Some people are just dumb in general.Before I got my first RDA i had already watched at least 20 different coil build videos and read tons of information online and watched some videos on batteries.People need to take responsibility for their own actions and ignorance is never a good excuse.
     

    Ryedan

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    What I would Like to see is More Retailers Including Information and Videos on their Sites about Battery/Mod Safety (as Well as Consumer Advocacy).

    I thought I heard that the Cloud Contest at Vape Blast was Cancelled and in it's place, an Impromptu Presentation about Battery Safe was done in its place. Not saying that the Battery Safety Presentation was Bad. I just think it is a Shame that we have to have a Mod Explode to get someone thinking that this is Something that should be Included.

    Retailer have the Potential to Reach Many More Vapers than ECF Members do. Because a Small Fraction of Vapers are Active Members of the ECF.

    Retailers also have a Vested Interest in Safety. Because when a Battery they Sell a Consumer Explodes, there is a Good Chance that the Retailer who Sold it could be Sued. Having Battery Safety Information on a Retailers Site is Not Only Good for the Consumer. It is Also a way to CYA when it comes to Potential Litigation.

    So it is kinda a Win-Win. And Everyone can Benefit from it.

    I agree with this zoiDman. The problem is I don't think things will change from the retailers end because there is no real incentive for them to do it yet. I think they will need to either be sued into changing or regulated into it. It sucks, but it is what it is.
     

    zoiDman

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    ...

    Many stores will just sell anything to anyone. I went to one with a friend who wanted a mech and I told the store not to sell him one, because basically he's not smart enough to even use his ego pen and iclear 16.

    ...

    These are the Stores that I Don't like to give Money to. Or to Recommend to People I know.

    I told the Owner of a Store like you mentioned that He Shouldn't sell New People Mech Mods with Low Ohm Coils in RBA's. He Told me... "Hey, I sell what they Want. That is what Makes me Money."

    I told he, Yeah, that is True. But if you Sold them a VV 18650 Mod and some Large Clearos, if they wanted to start Rebuilding down the Road, then you could Sell them an Additional RDB. And probably even another Mod. And some High Drain Batteries.

    He Liked that. He Liked it a Lot. And got this Shifty Grin and started to say... "Yes.... We should be Starting People out on something "Safer". A Vamo and some Clearos is a Good Call for a Newbie".

    What a Greedy Capitalist.

    LOL
     
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