This is a little old, but looks promising. Just thought I wold share this research note on research into longer batteries with faster charging. Curious to see where this goes.
Faster Charging Longer Lasting Batteries
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I don't think there's anyone who couldn't use a battery that holds more juice and takes less time to charge. Battery technology is sort of a holy grail for chemical engineering. You see a lot of claims about the next great battery. Unfortunately, most don't pan out.
Some comments on that article.
One of the reasons Li-Ion batteries are hazardous is they hold a lot of energy in a small package. Increasing that by 10 times would greatly magnify the issue.
With respect to charging, it's not just battery chemistry that gives rise to limitations. You can't charge a battery with an ultra-high rate without the electronics and wiring to support it. That introduces a whole new set of issues.
For example, if you could build a 10Ah battery than can fit in a cell phone (cell phones batts are typically around an amp-hour), you would need to pump in at least 40A to charge it in 15 minutes. You'd actually need somewhat more than that to compensate for normal charging inefficiencies. That's a lot of current. At minimum, you need 4 or 6 gauge wiring which is like a set of jumper cables.
Then there's heating issues. The cell would have to have a dangerously low DC resistance to avoid getting very hot, that's assuming the requirement for a charger the size of an arc welder is not a problem.
These facts make me doubt the claims of the article.
Some comments on that article.
One of the reasons Li-Ion batteries are hazardous is they hold a lot of energy in a small package. Increasing that by 10 times would greatly magnify the issue.
With respect to charging, it's not just battery chemistry that gives rise to limitations. You can't charge a battery with an ultra-high rate without the electronics and wiring to support it. That introduces a whole new set of issues.
For example, if you could build a 10Ah battery than can fit in a cell phone (cell phones batts are typically around an amp-hour), you would need to pump in at least 40A to charge it in 15 minutes. You'd actually need somewhat more than that to compensate for normal charging inefficiencies. That's a lot of current. At minimum, you need 4 or 6 gauge wiring which is like a set of jumper cables.
Then there's heating issues. The cell would have to have a dangerously low DC resistance to avoid getting very hot, that's assuming the requirement for a charger the size of an arc welder is not a problem.
These facts make me doubt the claims of the article.
The trend with electronics has not been for greater capacity, but for better efficiency to more economically utilize the energy a battery can store. In the days of brick sized cell phones, the batteries did not actually have all that much more capacity than they do now. The difference is the electronics have become much more efficient, doing more with less power and battery technology has improved to provide a smaller package for that capacity.
I expect battery capacity to further increase, or more correctly, for energy density to increase, but the result will be a smaller battery, not necessarily one that stores more energy. Like I said, there are limitations unrelated to battery chemistry that can not be overcome with current technology. There's no way around Ohm's law as of yet. Maybe when we have room temperature super-conductors. That will probably happen around the same time we have anti-gravity generators and FTL drives.
I expect battery capacity to further increase, or more correctly, for energy density to increase, but the result will be a smaller battery, not necessarily one that stores more energy. Like I said, there are limitations unrelated to battery chemistry that can not be overcome with current technology. There's no way around Ohm's law as of yet. Maybe when we have room temperature super-conductors. That will probably happen around the same time we have anti-gravity generators and FTL drives.
Open them up and see what's in there. There are a few possibilities.
The cells are designed for high charging rates. It's something done via chemical design and mechanical design of the conductors inside the cell. For a 1Ah battery, a 12min charge is 5A barring inefficiencies. This is not an unusually high current for something driven at 4.2V via wall power.
The thing with current is that power and thereby heat goes up exponentially as it increases. If a 1A current results in 1W then a 2A current results in 4W and a 4A current results in 16W. So, you can see where that quickly becomes a problem when talking about 50A.
The issue with the article is they are claiming very high capacity with very high charging rates. The two are mutually exclusive to an extent.
The thing with current is that power and thereby heat goes up exponentially as it increases. If a 1A current results in 1W then a 2A current results in 4W and a 4A current results in 16W. So, you can see where that quickly becomes a problem when talking about 50A.
The issue with the article is they are claiming very high capacity with very high charging rates. The two are mutually exclusive to an extent.
Look into lithium air batteries... Those look promising, but who knows if they will ever be applicable for our usage.
They are presently working on them for electric cars, but hopefully one day they will make smaller ones (vent holes would then be a requirement)
They are presently working on them for electric cars, but hopefully one day they will make smaller ones (vent holes would then be a requirement)
The 1300mah cell is probably an INR cell. The 12 minutes seems must faster than the vendors "50 min" charge time.
Charging an INR or IMR cell at 1C (or a little faster) seems to be common place. My CHEAP Ryobi 18 volt 2400 mah pack (5S2P) 18650 Sanyo cell charges at about 1.5C.
The average power from your charger to charge a 1300mah 11 volt pack (10.7 to 11.1 ?) in 12 minutes would be 72 watts.
Charging an INR or IMR cell at 1C (or a little faster) seems to be common place. My CHEAP Ryobi 18 volt 2400 mah pack (5S2P) 18650 Sanyo cell charges at about 1.5C.
The average power from your charger to charge a 1300mah 11 volt pack (10.7 to 11.1 ?) in 12 minutes would be 72 watts.
yeah but you can get high charge rates with resonably high capacity, like my 2 year old makita drill, would be nice for a small vape at home, maybe cell would only have 500mah capacity, but very high charge and discharge rate, so you wouldnt really be annoyed by it, as it's a quick charge when it runs out
yeah it really is super fast charge, and drill packs very resonable punch so i thought it would ruin the batteries, but it does not, 2 years later and their still in much better condition than 3ah nimh batteries were after a couple years of use, i'd kill for batteries like this for ecig, espcially because their clearly high drain ones since they can keep up with drill effortlessly
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srolsen
That would be a somewhat different approach to just getting bigger and bigger cells (I have a couple 26650 mods) that take "forever" to charge
A good high current cell (18650 size) charged at a 2C rate sounds like it could be an advantage to some people.
Good electronics in the charger, and e-cig (just like Makita does) charge and discharge temperature sensing.
Stopping the charge early rather than waiting forthe Constant Voltage portion of the charge curve would give you over 80% charge and shorten the charge time.
I just keep a spare 26650 on charge, but having a rapid charge e-cig would interest some folks.
Have you thought about modding one of your makita battery packs with an OK-R switchng regulator?
VV, rapid charge?
(I also hated the Nicad battery packs that never lasted a year. The Ryobi Li-ion packs use good quality INR 18650 cells but the 20+ volts at full charge is too much for the OKR regulator. Your makita pack would be perfect)
That would be a somewhat different approach to just getting bigger and bigger cells (I have a couple 26650 mods) that take "forever" to charge
A good high current cell (18650 size) charged at a 2C rate sounds like it could be an advantage to some people.
Good electronics in the charger, and e-cig (just like Makita does) charge and discharge temperature sensing.
Stopping the charge early rather than waiting forthe Constant Voltage portion of the charge curve would give you over 80% charge and shorten the charge time.
I just keep a spare 26650 on charge, but having a rapid charge e-cig would interest some folks.
Have you thought about modding one of your makita battery packs with an OK-R switchng regulator?
VV, rapid charge?
(I also hated the Nicad battery packs that never lasted a year. The Ryobi Li-ion packs use good quality INR 18650 cells but the 20+ volts at full charge is too much for the OKR regulator. Your makita pack would be perfect
)
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bwahaha i have!!!
but my god gf would never stop teasing me if i vaped from screwdriver battery pack
i want something that can sit next to mackbook on desk and look nice, maybe with a stand that can charge it, you come home, pop cig in stand, max 12 minutes later, presto, it's charged.
i know it's a bit silly to want stuff like that, but i been in the battery jungle trying to keep track of 25 different batteries when their charged, remember to charge them up when empty, keep track of bad ones, and once we switched to li-po worrying about explotions in the middle of the night
a stand with very fast charging really would be a lot more convenient for me, and probably bucketload of more people
The 20C 2200mAh LiPo I use in my latest mod has a 2C maximum charging rate which is a half hour. Even if I wanted to charge that fast, I wouldn't be able to find a charger controller than can support an output of 4.4A let alone the expense of a power supply so it's moot. My mods charge at 1A which is around 1/2C for that particular cell. It's still less than three hours to charge from flat. I think 1/2C is plenty fast enough. For me, capacity trumps charging rate as long as it doesn't drop too low.
I think power tools are unique in that they are discharged quickly so they need to be charged quickly. I guess it's relative. Since we don't discharge e-cigs all that fast, we don't necessarily need to charge them all that fast.
I think power tools are unique in that they are discharged quickly so they need to be charged quickly. I guess it's relative. Since we don't discharge e-cigs all that fast, we don't necessarily need to charge them all that fast.
come home, pop your cig in charging stand, put up groceries, clean a bit of random clutter, turn on kettle for coffee and when coffee is finish cig is charged and ready to vape. from electronics standpoint it might not be best idea, from life standpoint i'm not sure it's bad idea at all
Except for your 12 min charge they sound a lot like the Sanyo UR18650SA. A 1.3Ah cell with a claimed Maximum continuous discharge current of 20A.
Did you every check the voltage of a cell before you started 12 min charging?
It's interesting most folks first taste of IMR cells where with the Moli's (Canadian) pulled from Milwaukee batt packs. Moli would not sell to anyone but qualified and 'official' companies. But it seems these days many high end power tool makers are not using IMRs.
only thing i can find to be able to charge with 5C or more is nano-lifepo4 or li-po type batteries, and i'm allmost certain their neither type, but maybe li-po is the way to go, seems like rc people have ones that can charge at 12C
Thunder Power RC; The world-leader in Lithium Polymer (LiPo) battery power & charging solutions
i wouldnt really need to do that, but if 12C is within their spec, surely 5C is ok?
BTW, idk if i understand, you want me to run batteries as flat as possible to check cut off voltage ?
I think they use those batteries in the new Pomegranate phone...
Pomegranate | NS08
Pomegranate | NS08
Hey I'm all for technology that increases battery storage, battery life, and decreases charge time...
There's been a lot of them. I'm fond of quoting a nano-tech one from a year ago. Same results too (10 x capacity, faster charging). There's some that are even based on bacteria. Every energy lab on the planet (well...almost every one) is researching better lithium ion stuff. Let's hope someone manages to make it practical, safe and get it to market soon. The computers, cars, cell phones and, yes, e-cigs will all benefit.
There's been a lot of them. I'm fond of quoting a nano-tech one from a year ago. Same results too (10 x capacity, faster charging). There's some that are even based on bacteria. Every energy lab on the planet (well...almost every one) is researching better lithium ion stuff. Let's hope someone manages to make it practical, safe and get it to market soon. The computers, cars, cell phones and, yes, e-cigs will all benefit.
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