The FDA's is furious at juul and Altria for what they perceive as double dealing. The full story is here:
Juul and Altria Clash With FDA
Juul and Altria Clash With FDA
FDA Furious About Altria Purchase of Juul Stake
- Thread starter Robert T. Tan
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So basically Marlboro told the government a big fat whopping lie, and the government is somehow surprised and angered by this.
Did Altria go back on what it told the FDA it would do regarding their products?
Has juul changed what it said it would do?
Is the FDA/Scott really that Upset?
Or is the Media using this as the Tail that Wags the Dog?
Hard to know with just the information given. The tobacco companies have for a long time acted in a massively selfish and evil manner both before and after the great reveal that they had always known cigarettes caused cancer. I wouldn’t put anything past em.
So what Exactly did Altria do that was Evil?
I mean, this Altria/JUUL deal has only been in the works for over a Year. It's not like the FDA couldn't see it coming.
The FDA is furious that even tho Altria did pull their own products from the market they see that by them having a stake now in JUUL they have reversed their position. But they really haven't but by joining with JUUL the main thing is keeping a couple of fingers in the pie so to speak through JUUL's back door. Otherwise, if the merge had not happened, then BT would be almost totally out of the game.
jmho
... Otherwise, if the merge had not happened, then BT would be almost totally out of the game.
jmho
The problem is that Nobody would ever consider this as a Realistic Possibility. Like it or Not, BT is about as American as Apple (pie) and Chevrolet.
I really don't think that the FDA or Scott is all that Bent about the entire JUUL/Altria thing. But I think Scott saw the Indignant Card as a better PR Card to play. And, of course, the Media is perfectly willing to Amplify things.
Scott's kinda in a Self-Painted Corner Right Now. Because he fell into that "We Have to Save the Children" mantra. When He knows, like We Know, that he has Very Little control over Underage Use.
It probably would have been Better for Him and FDA to play the "We are going to do everything we can. But we can Never Stop an Adult from Selling or Given an e-Cigarette to a Younger Sibling or a Friend" card.
Instead of Fanning the Flames to a Fire that you Can't Put Out.
My 
BT wanted in on the money train.
Juul said no.
FDA/BT turns up the heat on Juul. (wink wink)
Office raids, bad press, Gotti "outraged".
BT makes Juul an offer they can't refuse.
Juul signs deal
Profit!
I'll bet that the Juul product (or whatever BT ends up calling it once they own 51%) is one of the first, if not the only "eciggarette" to gain approval by 2022.
Cheers
I
BT wanted in on the money train.
Juul said no.
FDA/BT turns up the heat on Juul. (wink wink)
Office raids, bad press, Gotti "outraged".
BT makes Juul an offer they can't refuse.
Juul signs deal
Profit!
I'll bet that the Juul product (or whatever BT ends up calling it once they own 51%) is one of the first, if not the only "eciggarette" to gain approval by 2022.
Cheers
I
Definitely a possible scenario. Could also explain why the FDA is so ....... They got used. Well, time to put my tinfoil hat away and stop worrying about things I can’t change. It’s not healthy.My
BT wanted in on the money train.
Juul said no.
FDA/BT turns up the heat on Juul. (wink wink)
Office raids, bad press, Gotti "outraged".
BT makes Juul an offer they can't refuse.
Juul signs deal
Profit!
I'll bet that the Juul product (or whatever BT ends up calling it once they own 51%) is one of the first, if not the only "eciggarette" to gain approval by 2022.
Cheers
I
Hmm... I thought that story was really interesting.
It's not that the FDA is completely not used to being lied to, but they appreciate being lied to in a specific way.
If, for example, Altria had completed some sort of bogus "study" that indicated their inserts reduced teen smoking and their association with Juul caused LESS teen vaping, the FDA might have eaten THAT one and been delighted.
It was the blatant lying without some sort of cooperation with the FDA that got Scott all hot under the collar, if you ask me.
I'm continuing to adore this Juul thing, by the way. It just KEEPS on giving and the more choler the FDA musters against the Juul, the less focus will be on other types of vaping.
Do I want Scott mad at vaping, or do I want him mad at a SPECIFIC company?
I spun my sword and it pointed at the latter.
Anna
It's not that the FDA is completely not used to being lied to, but they appreciate being lied to in a specific way.
If, for example, Altria had completed some sort of bogus "study" that indicated their inserts reduced teen smoking and their association with Juul caused LESS teen vaping, the FDA might have eaten THAT one and been delighted.
It was the blatant lying without some sort of cooperation with the FDA that got Scott all hot under the collar, if you ask me.
I'm continuing to adore this Juul thing, by the way. It just KEEPS on giving and the more choler the FDA musters against the Juul, the less focus will be on other types of vaping.
Do I want Scott mad at vaping, or do I want him mad at a SPECIFIC company?
I spun my sword and it pointed at the latter.
Anna
Well, the first sentence sort of implies it, as does the entire article.
This sentence is the one I was thinking of:
The FDA is also frustrated by what they perceive as double dealing by Altria. In October, the Marlboro-maker claimed they would not sell pod based e-cigs, but at the same time were in negotiations with the dominant player in the pod industry. The FDA will probably keep the pressure on Altria and attempt to persuade them to not share shelf space with their new ally Juul. After investing $12.8 billion, it seems unlikely that Altria will comply.
Especially if they plan on adding INSERTS and other stuff, Ataria said in October they would not sell pod based ecigs but by buying and working with Juul, they become part owners, and hence, part sellers of the Juul which is the biggest pod out there.
That seems like a blatant lie to me, although I'm quite sure Ataria is gonna go "we are just shareholders, we see, hear, speak no evil, etc."
But, that is most definitely obfuscating the truth and parsing words. If you own part of a company that sells things, you become attached/part of etc. at least at the level Ataria is DOING it, I mean, it's not like they bought 1% of the company. I think a fair argument can be made THAT IN MODIFYING the sale of Juul, there is a legitimate partnership of SALE of products, not just being a SHAREHOLDER who sits back and does nothing.
So okay, it's taking me a long time to explain the blatant lie. But it's like if I were to decide to quit smoking, and then buy 1/3 or whatever of my husband's tobacco and smoke it, and then say I was just in a "partnership or shareholder relationship with a smoker." That sort of reasoning doesn't fly and it shouldn't with the FDA either.
Like I said, they should have mashed together some bogus studies, given them to the FDA and then said they bought a partnership to improve child vaping and safety. It's not hard to do.
The FDA would have eaten that up like lambs to the slaughter. TRUST ME the FDA is NOT used to dealing with tobacco companies and how they operate. I'm afraid I am actually finding it a little bit FUNNY because I am extraordinarily familiar with what lies the FDA will enjoy and which ones will be utterly foreign and ANGER them.
You don't say one thing and do another. You manufacture some nice studies that support your point, hand the data to the FDA and they are all like, "Cool man, yea you may sell your new health produce at 1300 dollars per unit and bill insurance companies."
Anna
This sentence is the one I was thinking of:
The FDA is also frustrated by what they perceive as double dealing by Altria. In October, the Marlboro-maker claimed they would not sell pod based e-cigs, but at the same time were in negotiations with the dominant player in the pod industry. The FDA will probably keep the pressure on Altria and attempt to persuade them to not share shelf space with their new ally Juul. After investing $12.8 billion, it seems unlikely that Altria will comply.
Especially if they plan on adding INSERTS and other stuff, Ataria said in October they would not sell pod based ecigs but by buying and working with Juul, they become part owners, and hence, part sellers of the Juul which is the biggest pod out there.
That seems like a blatant lie to me, although I'm quite sure Ataria is gonna go "we are just shareholders, we see, hear, speak no evil, etc."
But, that is most definitely obfuscating the truth and parsing words. If you own part of a company that sells things, you become attached/part of etc. at least at the level Ataria is DOING it, I mean, it's not like they bought 1% of the company. I think a fair argument can be made THAT IN MODIFYING the sale of Juul, there is a legitimate partnership of SALE of products, not just being a SHAREHOLDER who sits back and does nothing.
So okay, it's taking me a long time to explain the blatant lie. But it's like if I were to decide to quit smoking, and then buy 1/3 or whatever of my husband's tobacco and smoke it, and then say I was just in a "partnership or shareholder relationship with a smoker." That sort of reasoning doesn't fly and it shouldn't with the FDA either.
Like I said, they should have mashed together some bogus studies, given them to the FDA and then said they bought a partnership to improve child vaping and safety. It's not hard to do.
The FDA would have eaten that up like lambs to the slaughter. TRUST ME the FDA is NOT used to dealing with tobacco companies and how they operate. I'm afraid I am actually finding it a little bit FUNNY because I am extraordinarily familiar with what lies the FDA will enjoy and which ones will be utterly foreign and ANGER them.
You don't say one thing and do another. You manufacture some nice studies that support your point, hand the data to the FDA and they are all like, "Cool man, yea you may sell your new health produce at 1300 dollars per unit and bill insurance companies."
Anna
But here's the Deal... That's Not what Altria said they were going to do.
Now, it might be what the Media Printed. Or what someone said on an Internet Forum. Or, perhaps, what the FDA wanted to hear.
But here is what Altria said...
http://www.altria.com/About-Altria/...a-Response-to-FDA-E-vapor-October-25-2018.pdf
Don't get me wrong. I have No great love for BT. But the things is, Altria has done what they told the FDA they were going to do. And the Lawyers at the FDA/FTC, as have anyone who follows Altria/JUUL, have known for at least a year that if T's and C's of a deal could be agreed upon, Altria was going to buy a Minority Limited Rights Share in JUUL.
So once again, is this really all that ground breaking? Or is it the Media wagging the Dog?
Well I read it, and nowhere in there did I see "we promise to refrain from buying shares in Juul" unless I missed it. Okay. Thanks for the link. If the FDA does not ask you not to buy shares in Juul and then you do, they have no reason to be upset.
I'm considering buying like, a Juul share. It could wind up like Apple or something. Although I may be too late.
Anna
I'm considering buying like, a Juul share. It could wind up like Apple or something. Although I may be too late.
Anna
Sorry I've been a bit slow to chime in (cat health emergency over the weekend) and I believe this has been answered. But just in case- here is Altria's initial press release from 12/20. Under "Key terms" they mention the standstill agreement that zoiDman described.
It remains to be seen if Altria's savvy and shelf space will outweigh the negative PR from associating with Big Tobacco. The talking points that anti-vapers can use to appeal to emotion basically write themselves now.
Altria - Investors - Press Release
It remains to be seen if Altria's savvy and shelf space will outweigh the negative PR from associating with Big Tobacco. The talking points that anti-vapers can use to appeal to emotion basically write themselves now.
Altria - Investors - Press Release
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