Fight The Good Fight!

[SteveS45]

In another discussion forum we have debated what year "Common sense" went extinct.

 

[crxess]

First my apology. I'm old and the eyes get blurry. only made it about 1/2 way through the Ops post.
That said, I believe I understand where you now are and what your attempting to convey. I am probably as bad as anyone about pushing my feelings, especially when pushed with gibberish and Hog wash. Can't say I'll ever change, but at least now people have been warned.

 

[edyle]

Being BRAND NEW to this board, I may be sticking my neck WAY out there BUT.......
I have had some experience on other boards and it was fairly clear that there are two things that are "cardinal sins" when replying to a thread; #1 Don't "hijack" the thread & #2 Don't drift O.T. (off topic).

Unfortunately, I may be at least partially guilty of both myself in "Time to say goodbye..." I got off on a rant about "The P.C. Crowd" which at least partially (at least from my P.O.V.) started the ball rolling down the same road "Mattiem" started THAT thread for to begin with, the bickering of whether or not Vaping is "safe" and what is and isn't "politically correct". For that, I sincerely apologize (to Mattiem)!!!

That being said, I started this thread first to apologize (and get Mattiem's back O.T. [Definitely don't want you to go!!!].) and second, to try and figure out how to "Fight The Good Fight!".

Before starting this thread, I read the article "Six ways to get your point across." that Robino1 suggested and it is indeed a pretty good read. I would recommend it to anyone interested in posting in this thread (or to any thread for that matter, where different points of view are anticipated and encouraged. [This is one of those threads BTW. ] )

To the point. I, along with many of you am sick and tired of vaping being demonized and have to admit, before reading the aforementioned article (not that I've metamorphosis-ized instantly HA, HA!!!) I "was" the "PUSH HARDER GUY". I can't say I'm an all out ... about vaping when and where I want but at the same time I also don't cotton to every post it note tacked to "NO SMOKING" signs that read, "That includes E-Cigs!!!" and even as a cigarette smoker, I considered myself "respectful" of other's "space". Although, now that I've been off of them for awhile, I realize I may not have been being as respectful as I thought I was . I guess that's kind of my point. All of the propaganda in regard to vaping/e-cigs has tied it/them to "real tobacco" when they are NOT AT ALL the same thing.

Someone commented in "Time to say......" "It's not the same but it is in the same spirit." and that's where I think the problem begins (MHO). The perception that they are the same thing. OF COURSE THEY ARE (in spirit)! Former tobacco smokers trying to quit AND SAVE THEIR OWN LIVES are far more "addicted" to the "HABIT" of "going through the motions of smoking" than they are the nicotine or any other part of "smoking"!!! That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that vaping does not have a "smell" (at least not an unpleasant one), that the "juice" is made up of exactly the same ingredients as asthma inhalers, sans the medication, but plus the nicotine & flavorings. Who here would walk up to a 12 year old, "vaping" an asthma inhaler and say, "I'm sorry! NO VAPING ALLOWED!" The long term effects of PG & VG ARE known. Ask any asthma sufferer or DR. treating them. It's beginning to come out that nicotine isn't nearly addictive as we have been lead to believe (See this post: Truth About Vaping and Why They Hate Us) and as for the flavorings, while there isn't much info on the long term effects of INHALING them, they are food grade, digestible products and there is a reasonably clear understanding of what is and isn't inhalable if purchased from a reputable producer or supplier. So, in my opinion, the "health issues & effects, including second hand" and the "consideration of others" arguments are BOTH irrelevant. That leaves us with "The Perception".

Several years ago, I got on an airplane with a "No. 7" e-cig, got seated, buckled in and waited to get pushed back to taxi for take off. "No. 7's" were a very convincing "cig-a-like" with a red glow at the tip and I say that to "set the stage". The plane, as is the case most of the time now-a-days, was nearly at capacity when on strolled the last few passengers. One of which was a single mother (I have no way of knowing if that was her actual marital status) with two toddlers in tow seated themselves a couple of rows back and across from me (I had a window seat). As is also usually the case, the fussing and crying began almost immediately. Being a heavy smoker and only using the e-cig to get me through the 7 hr. flight (LAX to ANC) I said to myself, "Here we go! It's gonna be "one of those flights"! Better have a hit or two RIGHT NOW!" I did and then I had a couple more as the kids continued to wail. Shortly after take off, above the kids fussing, I heard the "bing" of the call button a few rows back and across from me. It was "crying kids, single mom". Out of the corner of my eye, I saw the "flight attendant" ( I used to know them as "Stewardesses") bend over her and then head my way. As soon as she was standing next to my row, she said, "Excuse me SIR! THERE'S NO SMOKING ON BOARD THE AIRCRAFT!" I pulled my e-cig from my chest pocket and said, "I'm not "SMOKING" this is an e-cig!" lifted it to my lips, took a big hit, the tip glowed and I blew out what little vapor a No. 7 produced, then stuffed the still glowing "cherry" against my cheek and said, "See? NOT A CIGARETTE! NO FIRE, NO SMOKE, JUST ODORLESS VAPOR!" Somewhat shocked, she said, "Well "she" doesn't know that and you'll have to put it out!" I told her there was nothing to "put out" and realized right then and there that it was a PERCEPTION issue!!! I made that point and argued that if she could stop all the crying and screaming and the other people from coughing and sneezing, I'd be happy to stop sucking on my e-cig. (WOW! I just realized this WAS a while back! I don't think the word "Vaping" had even been conceived yet!) That's when I was told, "If you DON'T stop using it and put it away, I'll have the air marshal arrest you and you'll be removed from the plane in Seattle!" (It WAS post 9/11 and I guess I "may have" been a bit more of an ... about vaping when & where I want than I originally stated. HA, HA!!!) Needless to say, the No. 7 got tucked away (at least to the best of "their" knowledge) for the remainder of the flight. And there again, this makes my point. Since they didn't SEE or SMELL anything, they had NO IDEA I was vaping every chance I got!

The point is, the "flight attendant" was standing right over me, KNEW without a doubt that there was no fire or heat involved (Yes, I know, some will argue that the coil HAD TO heat in order to produce vapor) NO "SMOKE" & NO ODOR, just ONE passenger's PERCEPTION that I was "smoking".

I know this is A LOT of rambling. My question is how do we "Fight The Good Fight!" and turn this thing around? My wife and I quit tobacco for financial reasons but the health benefits are a MASSIVE bonus as well! The government, both state and federal, have continued to increase the taxes on tobacco (& alcohol) (fondly referred to by them as "Sin Taxes") to "encourage you to quit" something they CAN'T outlaw (prohibition DOES NOT WORK). Now that (those) revenue stream(s) are drying up, guess what's next?! Maybe this thread is just one long, rambling rant. One thing I know for sure is that "WE" will NOT be able to turn the PERCEPTION around by being push overs, door mats or through "in fighting", which is what I started seeing in the other thread. We HAVE TO ban together and "Fight The Good Fight"!!!

Any & ALL comments and/or suggestions are encouraged & welcomed!

FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT!!!
Von Vape

There's a difference between standing up in defence of your rights, and confrontationally provoking a reaction by vaping a cigalike nonchalantly on a plane.

"Look officer, it's not a real gun!"
Yes, you are correct: there is a perception issue.

 

[Von Vape]

Saw this in Mattiem's thread and signed it immediately!!! It doesn't solve the core issue I'm getting at here but it goes a long way toward a start. (IMHO, it should headline EVERY THREAD AND EVERYONE here should sign it.)

U.S. Senate, U.S. House of Representatives, President of the United States: Reject the FDA's Deeming of Vapor Products as Tobacco Products

(I'll respond to recent post in another reply. The link above is TOO IMPORTANT! ALSO MHO.)

Von Vape

 

[Von Vape]

OK, let's see if I can wade through this......

The "asthma inhaler argument card" as I call it, is one that just does not hold any ground as PG is not used in asthma inhalers, but, it is sometimes found in asthma nebulizer treatments. This argument holds even less ground now in the age of max VG eliquids given neither asthma inhalers or nebulizer treatments contain VG. And, just because PG may be present in some, not all, asthma nebulizer treatments does not make it benign nor is the application or dose remotely comparable between asthma medication nebulization and vaping.

As stated, "most" of what I've learned in the short time I've been tobacco free, I've learned right here from reading the suggested materials that some were kind enough to guide me to. I'm reasonably sure that I read HERE that VG/PG ARE the exact ingredients "the carrier" for the medication in asthma treatment devices. Splitting hairs between inhalers & nebulizers is just that, splitting hairs. Consider also I may have misunderstood what I read (I'll go back and find the material, re-read it and make a retraction, IF NECESSARY.)

As far as confrontational vaping...... Maybe too strong a word?

You are correct Robino1. Perhaps controversial would be more appropriate. Pushing the limit to initiate a conversation or debate as the case may well be.

Lord have mercy! When did we, as a whole, become such critical people? Do we really need a law to deal with things that are unpleasant to us?

If something bothers me, I move myself out of the situation/area. I don't need a law that tells people what to smell like or not smell like.

My point and ON POINT. Thank you Robino1

There's a difference between standing up in defence of your rights, and confrontationally provoking a reaction by vaping a cigalike nonchalantly on a plane.

"Look officer, it's not a real gun!"
Yes, you are correct: there is a perception issue.

WOW! How do I even respond to this??? Did you REALLY just compare a GUN to a "Cig A Like"???!!! Furthermore, there was nothing "nonchalant" about what I did. As stated, I had a window seat, I was turned toward said window (so as NOT TO "OFFEND" ANYBODY) and all I can think is that what little vapor a No.7 produces (if you have ANY IDEA of the cig a like I'm referring to) must have wafted up around me. That's what started the "confrontation", one person's PERCEPTION that I was SMOKING. I WAS NOT! (Nor was I being disrespectful or offending anyone. BTW, this was before the march to ban e-cigs/vaping everywhere smoking had already been banned.) What I DID recognize INSTANTLY was the slippery slope e-cigs were headed down and YES, I did stand up in defense (My spell check works. Does yours?) of e-cigs right then and there.

Comments have been made in other threads about "older members" and while the references there were in regard to members who have been here more than a few days, a few months or a year, what I'm about to relate is actually in reference to chronologically older members. I/we grew up in a time when you could smoke cigarettes, cigars & pipes ANYWHERE & EVERYWHERE. Grocery stores, airplanes, restaurants, bars, beaches, public pools, theaters, add infinitum. Was that too much "FREEDOM"? Well, first of all, you have to remember we were talking about TOBACCO, TOXIC SMOKE, RED HOT "CHERRIES" & ASHES, so under those circumstances, yes it was (IMO. I also believe the ban on smoking went too far in regard to NOT allowing business owners to make their own decisions. E.O.M. receipts would have and should have been the determining factor there.) The point of this thread is that we're not talking about tobacco, we're talking about vaping and the perception that e-cigs, tanks and mods are as harmful as tobacco. THAT IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED on BOTH sides of the "line in the sand".

As for the rest....I wish I knew what the answer is. The first that has to change is the way the old mindset is of being ashamed of enjoying nicotine.

We have been made to feel like we need to hide or be pushed to where we couldn't be seen, as smokers. This feeling has been carried over into the vaping arena.

That is one smart cookie we've got here!!!

Personally (as is likely obvious by now) I would vape just about anywhere. Smoking area, NO SMOKING area, it doesn't matter, I'M NOT SMOKING!!! FURTHERMORE I AM NOT POSING A THREAT TO YOUR HEALTH & WELL BEING!!! At the same time, I would also not "Blow Clouds" on, at, or around anyone. As someone else said, I don't like it myself so I wouldn't do it to someone else but that is my personal "courtesy" being exercised. If it were done to me, I'd ask the person "politely" not to do it again, THE FIRST TIME(!) and wouldn't expect anything less if the tables were turned. In regard to being offended by smells, I have to defer to Robino1 again. C'mon! REALLY!? I agree some juices have more "aroma" than others but the only time I've been overwhelmed by vape aroma is in a vape shop & I CHOSE to be there (It was Blueberries and Custard and to me it actually smelled very nice, so.....). If it had been an "offensive odor" (to me) I would have got what I went for and got out, that simple. If it were a grocery store, restaurant or airplane and I were the one "vaping", as long as it wasn't an "offensive odor" (YA, I KNOW! SUBJECTIVE!) and I was being my "courteous" self, a single person complaining would be hard pressed to get me to stop. IT'S NOT TOBACCO, TOXIC SMOKE, RED HOT "CHERRIES" & ASHES and IT'S NOT SMOKING!!!

Common sense, courtesy and "good taste" DO play heavily into where and when to vape or not to vape. The point is it's up to each individual (OR SHOULD BE) as to where to draw that line. One thing's for sure, complacency and being "good little sheep" ISN'T the answer!!! WE do need to "Take Back Our Freedom" and "Fight The Good Fight", TOGETHER! That's all I'm sayin'!!!

(I have an article to research & re-read........ back later...)

Carry On!
Von Vape

 

[Von Vape]

UH, YA, NO RETRACTION NECESSARY!

Dear YoursTruli,

I would like to draw your attention to this EFC post:
Purity of PG, VG and PEG - The Short Version
( Purity of PG, VG and PEG - The Short Version )

In particular, the third sentence, fifth line of the third paragraph, right about smack dab in the middle of everything. Ya, that's it the part I took the liberty of bolding and underlining for you. Please read the entire article if you'd like though. I found it very enlightening.
(Then again it might just be all "Pro Vaping" Voo-Doo and Smoke & Mirrors. Iduno, I just fell off the truck. )

"When used as the carrier for other materials, they can be referred to as excipients or diluents, especially when they are essentially inert in the human organism, as these materials are. That is to say, they have no major function or effect* and are treated as carbohydrates, metabolised, and excreted. Both PG and VG are used as the base for medical inhalers; in fact PG is used as the excipient for the medicinal inhalers used by lung transplant patients, and both PG and VG are used in asthma inhalers, so it should be fairly obvious that these materials are completely harmless for inhalation, at least in the short to medium term. There are questions about high-volume long-term use but these can only be answered after 20 years use for vaping; currently, it seems unlikely that serious issues will result since we would have seen some indication of this in asthma patients, who have of course used such inhalants for decades.
* PG is reported to act on the organism in the same way as ethanol but with around one-third of the effect. This can be ignored with the very small quantities consumed in vaping."

Respectfully,
Von Vape

 

[YoursTruli]

UH, YA, NO RETRACTION NECESSARY!

Dear YoursTruli,

I would like to draw your attention to this EFC post:
Purity of PG, VG and PEG - The Short Version
( Purity of PG, VG and PEG - The Short Version )

In particular, the third sentence, fifth line of the third paragraph, right about smack dab in the middle of everything. Ya, that's it the part I took the liberty of bolding and underlining for you. Please read the entire article if you'd like though. I found it very enlightening.
(Then again it might just be all "Pro Vaping" Voo-Doo and Smoke & Mirrors. Iduno, I just fell off the truck. )

"When used as the carrier for other materials, they can be referred to as excipients or diluents, especially when they are essentially inert in the human organism, as these materials are. That is to say, they have no major function or effect* and are treated as carbohydrates, metabolised, and excreted. Both PG and VG are used as the base for medical inhalers; in fact PG is used as the excipient for the medicinal inhalers used by lung transplant patients, and both PG and VG are used in asthma inhalers, so it should be fairly obvious that these materials are completely harmless for inhalation, at least in the short to medium term. There are questions about high-volume long-term use but these can only be answered after 20 years use for vaping; currently, it seems unlikely that serious issues will result since we would have seen some indication of this in asthma patients, who have of course used such inhalants for decades.
* PG is reported to act on the organism in the same way as ethanol but with around one-third of the effect. This can be ignored with the very small quantities consumed in vaping."

Respectfully,
Von Vape

I well understand PG has been attributed as an (inactive) ingredient in asthma inhalers by the ecig community for a good number of years, you will find it is however not listed as an (inactive) ingredient in any asthma inhalers, nor is VG, although admittedly this is the only time I have ever heard of VG attributed as a base for inhalers. And, as for nebulized asthma treatments, since I was unsure of the current use of PG I did some cross reference research and was unable to find any that currently contained PG.
You can look up asthma medications in both inhaler and nebulized delivery forms to check for yourself if you like.
DailyMed

 

[Von Vape]

Dear YoursTruli,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I just wanted you to know that I'm not one to just "make things up" off the top of my head. As with all things on "the web" AND in "real life" this probably SHOULD be taken with a grain of salt (if you don't have B.P. issues, that is! LOL!) LIS, I am by NO MEANS an "expert" on PG/VG or anything else VAPE related but I do have a thirst for knowledge and LOVE to learn. As a result, I'd like to thank you for your guidance to DailyMed. I'm sure I'll learn more about asthma treatments than I ever wanted to know.
That's not really the point though. Oh well, I tried..................

Regards,
Von Vape

 

[Von Vape]

I got to thinking this might be a good "anthem" for the pro vaping cause;

Just a thought.................

Rock On!
Von Vape

 

[WharfRat1976]

Vapors are like goats on a cliff ledge.

 

[skoony]

The "asthma inhaler argument card" as I call it, is one that just does not hold any ground as PG is not used in asthma inhalers, but, it is sometimes found in asthma nebulizer treatments. This argument holds even less ground now in the age of max VG eliquids given neither asthma inhalers or nebulizer treatments contain VG

PG was given the ok to be used in inhalers a long time ago. How many used PG may be an issue
however it is indisputable that it was approved for that purpose. I have no doubt that it was used.
The FDA didn't approve it on a whim. The base used today may be different for a number of reasons.
Vg is also considered safe for ingestion,inhalation and transdermal applications as it was the secondary choice for those allergic to PG. That is why if you remember e-cigarette history it was the go to choice
for those sensitive to PG. That's right VG was first used as a substitute for allergy reasons not because
the vapor was thicker. One wouldn't know that by reading some vendor sights.

"Look officer, it's not a real gun!"
Yes, you are correct: there is a perception issue.

If there is a perception problem it is yours alone. I can't understand where one
thinks they can speak for police officers,the public or,anyone but themselves.

Regards
Mike

 

[Von Vape]

WharfRat1976, Yes sir! I'd say that's about right. Great photo too!
skoony (Mike), Thanks for the support on both counts!

What I'm gathering from this is that even in the vaping community there are varying degrees of what is considered acceptable or "courteous" vaping behavior. If you're OK with being treated the same as a tobacco smoker and that works for you, fine. To each his own, live and let live. That, however, is not the point of this thread. The point IS that we are NOT tobacco SMOKERS (THREE CHEERS for EVERYONE who has broken those chains for whatever reason!!!) and as such, should not be bound by the same restrictions.

We have been made to feel like we need to hide or be pushed to where we couldn't be seen, as smokers. This feeling has been carried over into the vaping arena.

Lord have mercy! When did we, as a whole, become such critical people? Do we really need a law to deal with things that are unpleasant to us?

If something bothers me, I move myself out of the situation/area. I don't need a law that tells people what to smell like or not smell like.

I'll say it again! This is one smart cookie we've got here!

"Things" really have gotten TOO "P.C."! It appears that, sadly (even within the "vaping community") there are many who can no longer stand on their own two hind legs and speak for themselves, choosing instead to ask government to take them by the hand and lead them through the dark and scary forest. I suppose THAT is "the real problem". It's not just "What is considered acceptable or "courteous" vaping behavior and "How do "we" take back our freedom"?", it's the whole shift to, "X" offends me so there ought to be a law!" and the "follow the "party line" or suffer the consequences" attitude that follows. I fear that we, as a country, have surpassed the tipping point of the sheep outnumbering the wolves. THAT is the most tragic thing of all. Unless THAT pendulum swings back in the other direction, there is no solution to virtually anything involving personal and/or individual liberties (freedom).

This thread isn't a competition to see who is the most or least considerate vaper, whether you agree or disagree with anyone's level of courtesy or that, "It's my way or the highway!". Everyone is entitled to their opinion and what works for them ("Oh the world don't move to the beat of just one drum" [The theme from Different Strokes].) I sense that some feel this is an ALL or NOTHING situation, it is not. Please don't dig your heels in and tell yourself, "If I get on board with this, I'm agreeing to ALL of it." Agree to disagree as far as that goes and speak up for yourself if something offends you or "your space" in your personal lives. The fact of the matter is, "we" ARE outnumbered just like tobacco smokers are/were.

This thread IS about solidarity and NOT allowing ourselves to be treated like tobacco smokers. WE ARE NOT!

"Solidarity Now!"
(Hey, it worked for Poland!)
Von Vape ​