Five Pawns responds with own results!!

[ImThatGuy]

"There is currently no standardized or approved methodology for testing e-liquids."

Is it not just a process of breaking down elements contained in a particular matter just to see if DA or AP exists? Don't we already have that technology?

Hmmm...so who's results do we believe? Who's results should we ever believe? Past, present, future...which test has the credible result?
Is this a question of QC? A question of process? Or just a question of trusted professionals performing the examinations?

Oh, on an opinion note: DA and AP is FDA approved in consumed items, but has never been approved for vaporization/inhalation. We all have free will. Do as you please. After all, if you're smart enough to read through this forum and my opinion; I'm fairly sure you can make a sound decision for yourself to vape or not to vape liquids with these questionable ingredients. I chose not to since I quit cigarettes for the health reason; harm reduction.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Anyway if 5P are not officially on the record somewhere stating that they are diacetyl and AP free in their products I don't see a problem here. I do see them as bullies however and that unless they are going to reimburse the test fees then they'll just have to let the other folks show their test results and 5P can show theirs.

...

Here is an Interesting Post...

From a post on 22-01-14
Information on Diacetyl, Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl or Acetoin in e liquids.

I actually wrote to 3 vendors Jen and here are the replies, but none specifically mentioning Acetoin:

Hi Nikki,


Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this. We use absolutely no Dicetyl or additives of any kind in our liquids. Thanks for the note!


Regards,


r.


Rodney Jerabek
Founder / President
Five Pawns Inc.
(949)474-1150

 

[Traijan]

It is interesting although according to their own tests there is no noticeable amounts of Diacetyl which if one can believe what was posted that part then is true, then comes the additives. It makes me wonder if they truly don't use any additives in their liquids apart from any additives that might come in flavorings that they are using. It would be no excuse as if you are selling a product to the public you should make damn well sure that you know everything that is in your base ingredients to make up your own product. I don't know, I'm sure more about this will eventually emerge unless they play it like many large corporations and go silent on all of it, since if you go silent you are not giving your enemies any ammunition, kind of like what EA does when they have a sour game.

 

[zoiDman]

Another member just Posted this...

Good show tonight, covering this issue:

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=758528377606786&set=a.184265535033076.38476.100003488922992&type=1&comment_id=758531464273144&offset=0&total_comments=1

 

[WharfRat1976]

My concern arises from the fact that there have been zero cases of harm resulting from vaping these liquids. Not one. We know that industrial use of diacetyl has led to an elevated risk of harm. That's about it. Industrial use of many household chemicals has led to harm as well but we still routinely use ammonia, chlorine, etc.

As far as AP, no harm has been demonstrated in humans. Remember the saccharine scare? Rats are not humans.

I just wish we would all -industry and consumers alike- take a step back and see things as they are instead of how our fear paints them.

Still too early for a decent sample---Too early---

 

[WharfRat1976]

Still too early for a decent sample---Too early---

What about the ZOTS scare

 

[Racehorse]

My concern arises from the fact that there have been zero cases of harm resulting from vaping these liquids.

As far as AP, no harm has been demonstrated in humans.

And my concern arises from Dr. F's words on the subject (an objective medical researcher who is vape-friendly and doesn't have any "coin" in this (will not be economically profiting) and he believes that AP doesn't belong in ejuice. I believe he has used the word "worrisome".

(I also consider him to be scrupulously meticulous)

I feel more comfortable taking his opinion over somebody who is "marketing" to me.....plus he has medical/chemistry/pulmonary and cardiac education and training.

I imagine that there are many who will agree with you puddinman, and many who will agree with me, too....and thankfully there are enough lol: more than enough) ejuice vendors in the biz to fulfill both these angles.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

I keep hearing a tune on here reminiscent of the big tobacco song of several decades ago.......
Nothing proven yet darlin....
Ride off into the sunset macho man....

 

[Racehorse]

There is no scientific evidence that the ingredients and exposure levels involved are harmful.

Dr. F.: "Most commonly, diacetyl exposure causes a decline in lung function which can be detected by a reduction in FEV1"

So, a FEV1 measurement isn't scientific?

Given the fact that people have been vaping diacetyl and related chemicals and no harm has emerged

I asked my Mom's pulmonologist what FEV1 is. He said it measures lung capacity.

So I would definitely consider a reduced FEV1, i.e., reduced lung capacity, as indication that harm has occurred.

 

[puddinman]

Dr. F.: "Most commonly, diacetyl exposure causes a decline in lung function which can be detected by a reduction in FEV1"

So, a FEV1 measurement isn't scientific?



I asked my Mom's pulmonologist what FEV1 is. He said it shows lung capacity.

So I would definitely consider a reduced FEV1, i.e., reduced lung capacity, as indication that harm has occurred.

The problem with your reply is that there is no evidence that vaping diacetyl has resulted in reduced FEV1. Dr Farsilanos is absolutely correct in that fEV1 would be one of the first signs because that is what occurs in industrial exposures. It's also what occurs with ANY obstructive or fibrotic (which is what BO is) pulmonary disease. A reduced FEV1 is not diagnostic of anything in particular. He did not say that he has ever observed such reduction in vapers. In fact, he has been careful to say that there hasn't been any evidence of harm thus far but that diacetyl represents an avoidable risk. I agree with him in that respect.

 

[Racehorse]

A reduced FEV1 is not diagnostic of anything in particular.

I consider measuring the functional status of the lungs as somewhat "diagnostic".

I do understand what you're saying though, pinG, that this particular test, in and of itself, is not diagnostic in terms of naming a specific disease process.


I am happy to avoid reduced lung function, so do not really need a "named disease" to go along with it in order to eschew what I consider to be a deleterious effect.

 

[puddinman]

Well, you'll have to avoid getting older which is the leading cause of reduced lung function!

 

[Brkdnc]

Reading all of this is starting to drive me nuts. If I like the juice I will use it no matter what is in it. Why because whatever is in the juice, it was also in regular cigarettes to begin with already that 99.9% of us have smoked for how many years/decades before we switched to vaping.

Vaping is not 100% safe and never will be, but it is still 99% better than smoking cigarettes even with Diacetyl or anything else in the liquid.

 

[ImThatGuy]

Harm reduction...

 

[TruSound]

I recently met someone that purchases back room blends from a shop in Vegas for 5 bucks a bottle, I'd be much more concerned about the liquid made in the back room of your local vape store than I would about 5 Pawns.

 

[YoursTruli]

I think @Brkdnc the main issue with this is honesty and full disclosure as to what is in the eliquid we are consuming so that we can make an informed decision if we want to buy a particular eliquid from any given vendor. Just because vaping is better for you then smoking doesn't mean people do not want to minimize any risks to their health even further or to be lied to about it.

 

[SleeZy]

Dr. F.: "Most commonly, diacetyl exposure causes a decline in lung function which can be detected by a reduction in FEV1"

So, a FEV1 measurement isn't scientific?



I asked my Mom's pulmonologist what FEV1 is. He said it measures lung capacity.

So I would definitely consider a reduced FEV1, i.e., reduced lung capacity, as indication that harm has occurred.

This is for the people working in the industry and getting explosed highly every day, though.
There's not a single evidence so far that the diacetyl in vaping has yet done any harm. Atleast to my knowledge.

Granted diacetyl can and should be avoided anyway if one doesn't want take the possible risks associated with it.
Personally i'm gonna vape up my juices that's known having diacetyl, after that i'll prolly skip it even though i love custards...

 

[ReacT]

Please stop saying there is no standardized methodology for testing eliquids. Okay thats true, but DA and AP safe limits are known 30 years now.

if that cloud9 company tests are correct, that means. 2500AP parts/million is for a tiny sample or 1ml fivepawns liquid that cloud9 tested. That is 2500 AP micrograms in one ml.

The published safe take limit for AP for a day is 135 micrograms for human. At 3ml liquid vape per day, the exposure is 7500, which is more than 50 times the limits. I cant even think what this will be for people who use RDA and lung inhale also people who use 5 - 10ml per day.

In fivepawns respond, they said traditional cigarettes have diacetyl and AP too in the article, yes they have but diacetyl loses its functions and becomes harmless when it is 'burned' on those traditional cigarettes. Diacetyl is not burned in ecigs and its functions stays undamaged which can cause deadly popcorn lung.

If side effects are going to be seen in the future, because of AP exposure, they cant say "industrial exposure limits to vaping exposure limits are flawed" in the response article. As nobody knows what limit of AP can cause serious issues or not in the future. What known is industrial exposure limit is 135 micrograms per day for human.

The worst thing is we paid $27.50 for each bottle and cloud9 company tests showed five pawns has the highest ever dyacetyl-acetyl content ever recorded. I guess if you pay that much for just 30ml liquid, you also get double ...

For me castle long was the only liquid, but I leave it until fivepawns make a new double lab tests and tests must be done by 3rd person or company, not theirself.

 

[Rin13]

I wonder if this is the reason I got so sick while vaping their stuff. This was a couple years ago. I thought it was the fact that its 50/50 (PG sensitivity) but I didn't has as bad of a reaction to other 50/50 blends

 

[anjelvape77]

I think @Brkdnc the main issue with this is honesty and full disclosure as to what is in the eliquid we are consuming so that we can make an informed decision if we want to buy a particular eliquid from any given vendor. Just because vaping is better for you then smoking doesn't mean people do not want to minimize any risks to their health even further or to be lied to about it.

I have to agree with this. Its so about honesty more than content for me. I switched to vape for harm reduction not perfect safety. Theres nothing I will inhale that will provide perfect safety that's just not a possibility, but I would like the ability to make informed decisions so company honesty is a MUST