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Flavor Idea Redux

Discussion in 'Bionic Vapor' started by IML8, Mar 7, 2015.

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  1. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    I'm guessing the original Flavor Idea thread was closed because it remained idle too long, but I just had a flavor breakthrough that I had to share before I forgot about it, so I started a new one.

    I've accidentally stumbled onto a flavor combination that is absolutely phenomenal in my subjective opinion. I was trying to salvage a citrus blend concoction (lemon/lime/orange) that was nearly unvapable. Using my usual wing-it method, I dug through my flavorings and decided to throw caution to the wind and add some pinapple, coconut, Bavarian cream and some ethyl maltol (cotton candy) along with a little more VG base. I've never had any luck with anything I've added coconut to.

    Coconut, although I love the flavor of it in foods, has been an elusive vape juice flavoring for me because it seems to have a tricky tipping point where it suddenly goes from a nearly indistinguishable faint flavor to having a strong chemical characteristic, almost like some kind of plastic, that I can't stand. This time, however, it was perfect. I'm not sure how to describe it. There is a Thai food restaurant near me that sells a dish they call Angel Wings (So named for the benefit of their American patrons, no doubt). This juice tastes a lot like that sweet and slightly tangy white coconut sauce they use on those deep fried chicken wings. It's really good.

    I now have a couple hundred milliliters of this stuff, but, when I run out, I will definitely try to recreate it and when I do I will keep meticulous records of the ingredient ratios and send them along to the master mixologist (JC) to see what he thinks about it. Maybe he can polish it up a bit and give it a trial run if he likes it. He probably wouldn't need my help at all to produce something along this line, but it couldn't hurt.:unsure:
  2. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    Okay, I've been vaping this stuff for several days now and I have to say I still think it's superb. I tastes like the virgin version of the cocktail "The 19th Hole" with some Crème de Coconut in it. At first, I though it was going to be too sweet for an ADV and thought adding the ethyl maltol, even though it was a tiny amount, might have been a mistake. My experience has been that many juices become sweeter as they steep, but this one seems to be having the Bavarian Cream come forward to sort of balance the sweet and the fruit. It's almost begging for a touch of banana though.

    Still, even though I love it, I recognize that coconut is one of those flavors that a lot of people just hate and this wouldn't be for everyone. It would also probably be too sweet as an ADV for many if not most people.

    I'm really happy though that I didn't discard the original citrus blend that was really awful with a strong floral note bordering on a perfume. I think the orange is what ruined it? I think the pineapple was able to draw the fruitiness back out in it. Anyway, I might regret it, but I think with the next batch I will exchange the orange with a dab of banana and see how that works out. Either way, I will definitely be experimenting with less confidence and smaller batches.:laugh:

    The good news and the bad news might be that I have enough of this stuff that I will be able to update the effects steeping has on it for quite a while even if I vaped nothing else (that's not gonna happen).
  3. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    It just keeps getting better. A not too sweet Bavarian Crème on the inhale with nicely blended coconut lime on the exhale.

    I think once I seal it inside a fire cured coconut shell with African beeswax and bury it in a sea turtle nest on an undisclosed tropical beach to let it steep for 70 days until the hatchlings uncover it then triple filter it, it will be the world's most perfect e-liquid.

  4. GPC2012

    GPC2012 ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 12, 2014
    Reedley Ca
    Sounds great. I know when I was mixing my own my biggest problems always occurred when I used orange it seemed to be very astringent and harsh. glad you worked it out.
  5. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    Yep. It was awful at first, but since I modified it and everything has had time to steep (I added a little banana to it a few days ago), it has gotten to a point where nothing really stands out. If I didn't know what was in it, I don't think I would be able to pick out the flavors. The few drops of banana I added just changed the overall characteristic by adding another subtle dimension, but I can't really taste it specifically.

    My wife literally hates anything with the taste of lime in it and so it was with this juice until yesterday when I said, "Here try this". She did and said, "Mmm-mmm that's really good. What is it?" to which I responded, "It's the same thing you hated a couple of weeks ago. She looked at me disbelievingly...sort of puzzled until I said, "You know. The stuff with the lime in it." Then she made that scrunchy face and said, "Oh yeah, I can taste it now. I don't like it." I laughed so hard I had to go sit down. Girls are so funny.

    Since it has Pineapple, Banana, Coconut and Bavarian Cream with a twist of Lime, a twist of Lemon and a twist of Orange, I've decide to call it "Twisted Pineananut Cream". I'm not a very good DIY mixologist, but I got very lucky with this one. It's really good. I'm glad I didn't dump it down the sink like I started to.
  6. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    Alrighty then, it's all gone...every last drop. BTW, I added a hint of peach to the final little bit, out of curiosity, and it worked very well too.

    Since I don't want this thread to die out for lack of use, I'm going to use it to document my attempts (processes and reasonings) to recreate Twisted Pineananut Cream or something similar to it. It will probably take a while. Where to begin?

    I don't want to take the same path because the initial citrus blend was just awful and I don't need to go through that again. I think I'll work my way backwards, start with some kind of Pineapple, Banana, Coconut, Cream base and go from there. I'm not thinking of this as a DIY project, but more like documenting the birth and development of a basic flavor idea that somebody who is good at this sort of thing (J.C.) could possibly take from the realm of amateurish flailing into the realm of a premium crafted juice if they so chose.

    I don't want this to stop anyone from contributing their own flavor ideas to the thread. That's what it's for. Please do. Just ignore my ongoing blatherings. It won't bother me in the slightest and, in the interim, I hope my tangential shenanigans don't bother anyone else. Let me know, if they do, and I'll quit. It doesn't really matter to me one way or the other.
  7. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    Well, it didn't take long to find a good starting point over at the ECF, Hawaiian Cream Delight recipe (TFA) thread.

    They all seemed to like the following mix of TFA flavors:

    Banana Cream 7%
    Pineapple 3%
    Coconut Extra 5%
    Whipped Cream 3%
    Sweetener 8%

    That sure sounds like too much sweetener. I happen to have all of those flavors from Wizard Labs, so here's the plan:

    I want to know what the dominant flavors are (I fully expect Pineapple to overwhelm everything else), so I'm going to mix up a 100 ml batch with each one of those at 4% (that makes it a simple and easy 20% flavoring in PG base, including sweetener, to 80% pure vg base ratio.) instead of what they have recommended. That way I'll have enough of it to analyze which flavors dominate over time as it steeps. I hope this isn't going to taste horrible the way I'm doing it. *fingers crossed*
  8. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    Fresh out of the mix, a couple of surprising things: 1) Whipped Cream is by far the most dominating flavor with Coconut Extra second. I can't even taste the Pineapple or Banana Cream and it's not as sweet as I expected it to be. 2) It's not horrible. Yay! Being a big fan of creamy vapes anyway, I can vape this for a few days to see how it evolves.

    Okay, that was more than a couple of things, but you get the idea. I can't get over the fact that, in equal proportions, the whipped cream dominated the pineapple. That was really unexpected for me.

    On another note, if I were really trying to be precise in my analysis, I would have mixed it with zero nicotine. I didn't. I used my free 15 ml sample from Nude Nicotine (100 mg/ml, 100% VG). Thanks, Nude Nicotine! Very peppery taste at all.

    Aspire Atlantis @ 25 watts

    As of now, it looks like I want to decrease the whipped cream and the sweetener by 1% each, leave the Coconut Extra where it is and increase the Banana cream and Pineapple by 1% each, but we'll see how it tastes after a couple days of steeping.
  9. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    A couple days into the steep and the Pineapple and Banana Cream are coming forward a little, but very little. I don't see this batch developing too much of a different flavor profile as time goes on. Still, I'm gonna stick with the plan and leave this batch unadulterated as I vape it out over the next several days. It's not bad, but it has that sort of buttery flavor that is common when there is too much cream flavoring. Some people might even like that. *shrugs* I don't know, but I don't think it's optimal.
  10. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    Alright, 4 days of steeping and the Banana Cream and Pineapple continue to come forward ever so slightly (at least they're detectable now) and the Whipped Cream has settled down and all but completely lost that buttery flavor aspect. Not bad at all as it is. This steep has been a simple traditional cap on in a dark cabinet at around 75 degrees F. shaking it only when I get it out to fill a tank up with it. I think I have and idea to try out on the next batch. I've decide to go with Peach and Strawberry rather than trying to re-create the same effect I got from the citrus blend. I'm also going to add a smidgen of Ethyl Maltol because I have a theory about it.

    I don't think Ethyl Maltol actually adds any actual sweetness at all. I think it is just a flavor that our brains have become so used to associating with actual sweetness, that our subconscious conflates the two into a perception of sweetness...a sort of pseudo-sweetness, if you will. I think it is a kind of comfort flavor that, when sufficiently in the background, you can't quite put your finger on, but know there is something familiar about it that you like.

    With that in mind, here's the current plan for batch #2:

    4% Coconut
    4% DX Banana Cream
    2% Pineapple
    2% Strawberry
    2% Peach
    2% Whipped Cream
    2% Sweetener
    2% Ethyl Maltol
    20% total and this time I am going keep some of it nic free (zero nicotine) in a pure VG base just to try. If it turns out as good as I hope, I might fill up one of my empty 8 ml vials from Wizard Labs (thoroughly cleansed and sanitized, of course) and send it to JC in order to solicit the opinion and advice of a master mixologist.
  11. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    I just discovered something when I was looking through my empty flavoring containers. I have 2 empty Coconut Extras. I must have used twice as much Coconut Extra as I thought I did. That would explain why it was the most prevalent flavor besides the Whipped Cream. That's going to change all the percentages. I'll go back and edit them shortly, but I'm doing the math in my head, so I might not get it exactly right the first time.

    Nope. I'm going off into the decimal weeds. This will never do. I'm going to have to abandon this batch (oh, I'll make personal use of it) and approximate nice round numbers for creating the next trial batch for a 20% mix, but I'm gonna have to scratch my head for a minute before I fix/edit those numbers in the previous post.

    Edit: Alright, I made the changes. Not quite what I was thinking at first, but I think it's gonna work out okay. part of the plan is focused on simplicity and efficiency. In the big picture, it couldn't get much simpler or easier.
  12. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    Adjusting the plan a little further, come payday I will purchase the following from Wizard Labs for $14.90 plus shipping and simply dump all 10 - 8 ml vials (80 ml) of it into a container together

    16 ml of DX Banana Cream
    16 ml of Coconut
    8 ml of Pineapple
    8 ml of Strawberry
    8 ml of Jackfruit
    8 ml of Toasted Marshmallow
    8 ml Sweetener
    8 ml Ethyl Maltol

    I will subsequently mix that at 20% with my 80% total of combined nicotine VG base and plain unflavored VG base...which works out to 4%, 4%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2% and 2% respectively for the flavorings. I still have a week and a half or so to reconsider this blunt force attempt, but I think it'll be fine. At least I hope it'll be okay because I'll have 60 ml of flavoring already mixed up and left over to fiddle around with if it isn't.

    I know what you're thinking, "That's a bad plan!". Maybe, but that's how I roll.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    I decide to nix the sweetener and the strawberry. Here's what I finally ordered:

    16 ml Jackfruit Flavor Concentrate by TFA (2 x 0.27oz)
    16 ml Coconut Flavor Concentrate by TFA (2 x 0.27oz)
    8 ml Pineapple Flavor Concentrate by TFA (1 x 0.27oz)
    8 ml DX Banana Cream Flavor Concentrate by TFA (1 x 0.27oz)
    8 ml Toasted Marshmallow Flavor Concentrate by TFA (1 x 0.27oz)
    8 ml Ethyl Maltol 10% PG Solution Flavor Concentrate by TFA (1 x 0.27oz)

    When it shows up, I'll dump it all together and mix that at 20% with my base. I'll let y'all know if it tastes like crap. How bad could it be? Maybe I should start off with a 10 ml batch, just in case.

    BTW, I switched out the Coconut Extra for the plain Coconut Flavor because, from what I've read, the Extra part was partially responsible for causing the cream flavor to be overwhelming and causing some of the "buttery" flavor as well as having some questionable safety aspects as did the original Banana Cream. The plain Coconut and the DX Banana Cream from TFA doesn't contain those same suspect components.
    • Like Like x 1
  14. inspects

    inspects Squonkamaniac Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 15, 2014
    Arizona, Ecuador
    Sounds delicious....:)
  15. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    I have no idea if it actually will be, but I do think harebrained schemes are more fun than run-of-the-mill prescient schemes. We'll see. I like all these flavors except the Jackfruit which I've never tried. The hope is, if the flavors all more or less play well together in these crude proportions and it tastes pretty good, maybe JC can tune it up, take it to the next level and turn it into something worthy of the Bionic Vapor brand. I'm just playing guinea pig.
  16. mekakeisei

    mekakeisei Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 2, 2011
    Warwick, RI
    Ooo, this is exciting.
  17. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    BAM! It's three exclamation points good!! I mixed up a 10ml batch in the exact proportions and exactly how I said I was going to a few posts above and with zero steep time it tastes a little weak at 20%. If I didn't know what was in it, I'm not sure I could pick any of the flavors out. It has lots of aspects that I think would only be vaguely familiar at first, but nothing in particular that really jumps out which is sort of what I hoped for. That could all quickly change though since it's barely even mixed up. I'm just glad it wasn't an epic fail.

    The wife likes it which is good because she doesn't have a very wide variety of flavors she likes. I'm glad I passed on the sweetener. I can taste that cotton candyish flavor from the Ethyl Maltol in the background, but it's pretty subtle. I'll report back once it's had a chance to blend and steep a little bit. I might have to fill up a couple of those empty 8ml vials that the flavorings came in and send them out to a couple people to get their opinions
  18. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    Okay, Jackfruit is freakin' delicious and it works very well with all the other flavors in this concoction. Of course, I read all the flavor descriptions of it that said it tasted like a cross between bananas and pineapples and that it was the basis for the flavor of Juicy Fruit gum, but, while that sounds close to right, it still doesn't quite nail it. There is something about it that is reminiscent of pink grapefruit, but that's not quite right either. It's sweet and definitely distinct from the other flavors. It's different, but I think the proportions are right. I think the Toasted Marshmallow is acting as a moderating factor on the fruit flavors

    Nothing overpowers anything else. Overall, the 20% is still a little weak for me, but, from what little I understand of it, it would probably be just about right for people with good drippers. Another good thing about this particular mix is I think it would serve very well as a base to play with for adding other flavors to. Maybe a little caramel or some hazelnut or even some other fruits. I'm very happy with how it turned out. As it warms up in my Subtank Plus, I'm getting a little in-tank steeping effect and it seems to be just getting better. Aright, it passes muster. I'm gonna go ahead and mix up a big batch. I'm gonna need more of this stuff. It's growing on me.
  19. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    I'm really liking this as is, but I don't think fits my original goals tightly enough. I want 10 ingredients in equal 1 each proportions, so for my experiment next month I'm going to replace one of the Jackfruits with Strawberry and one of the Coconuts with Rumchata. For the final two ingredients, I think I'll go back with the Peach idea and tie it all together with some Almond Amaretto.

    So, for now, the plan for next months flavoring order looks like one each of the following 10 ingerdients:

    1. Jackfruit Flavor Concentrate by TFA (0.27oz)
    2. Pineapple Flavor Concentrate by TFA (0.27oz)
    3. DX Banana Cream Flavor Concentrate by TFA (0.27oz)
    4. Coconut Flavor Concentrate by TFA (0.27oz)
    5. Strawberry Ripe Flavor Concentrate by TFA (0.27oz)
    6. Juicy Peach Flavor Concentrate by TFA (0.27oz)
    7. Rumchata Flavor Concentrate by TFA (0.27oz)
    8. Toasted Marshmallow Flavor Concentrate by TFA (0.27oz)
    9. Almond Amaretto Flavor Concentrate by TFA (0.27oz)
    10. Ethyl Maltol 10% PG Solution Flavor Concentrate by TFA (0.27oz)

    Things could change. We'll see how it goes between now and then.
  20. IML8

    IML8 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2014
    After a few days of steeping, this juice, in my totally unbiased objective opinon, is getting very good. There would undoubtedly be some people who think it's the most horrible thing the universe has ever known and others who would probably think it's "meh", but I think I wouldn't change a thing, so I christen it...

    Paradise Jacked
    I'm just spitballing here...
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