Flavor Loss - Oxidation or Plastics Chemicals?

[Seabrook]

What causes flavor loss after a while? Is it oxidation from mixing too large of a bottle (30ml), or is it the wrong kind of plastic (PET, PVC, PS) the bottles are made of leaching into the e-juice?

For one thing, I know for sure it isn't me, because the 30ml juices taste great when they're new, and I always shake them b4 using, even just between drippings. The flavor just keeps fading until I have to add more.

What I've noticed so far is that the smaller 15ml bottles seem to hold their flavor. Another thing I've noticed when I inspect my bottles is that Tasty Vapor is the only juice co. I've done business with that uses the HDPE plastics to bottle his juices, and his are the ones that I don't have any problems with losing flavor -- but, OTOH, it's also a 15 ml bottle that comes w/his bottle w/the doubler that I mix them with.

This is really bugging me lately, does anyone know? Only guessing, I would say it is oxidation, but I would appreciate someone enlightening me if they know. Please and thank you.

 

[zoiDman]

Try putting your juice in a glass bottle and keeping it in a cool dark place.

If the flavor still fades, then you know it is not the bottles.

 

[7thCabal]

So what kind of flavor % are you going with? PG/VG ratio?
Heavy VG concentrations DO mellow flavs more over time as opposed to mixes w/ lesser concentrations where the flav actually develops/rounds-out/homogenizes/whatever. @ least from what I've noticed in my own DIY.
FYI I store my unflavored liquids/flavors in glass... but not together in the same bottle.

 

[GoodDog]

I keep all my liquids and flavorings in a cabinet in a cool room and haven't noticed any flavor loss. I do notice that it gets thinner in viscosity over time and even some of my higher VG DIY and vendor e-liquid has become watery. Have you also noticed that?

 

[Switched]

PG is a humectant and will draw moisture from air, and it gets worst on vary huimid days. So
yes this is totally normal (becoming watery)

WRT oxidation ??? I use 6ml bottles for all my liquids (daily) and I mix 30ml at a time which are stored in a cool dark place. I have not notice a loss in flavour but have notice maturity with aging (read not as harsh) the latter is different than loss of flavour IMHO and experience

 

[Seabrook]

I have juices stored in a cool dark place, but I meant the juices not stored away -- the juices I'm vaping daily.

I did find some bottles made out of the safer LDPE plastic at Plastic Dropper Bottles - LDPE - Freund Container & Supply. And I may be wrong, but I think they're also less expensive than other sources I've seen -- a 10ml for .31, a 1 oz for .40. The glass bottles are only .60 for 15ml, .65 for 30ml. That's not bad is it?

I always use the natural (clear) plastic and run masking tape around the bottle to keep the light out. I'm kinda paranoid about storing in died/painted plastic bottles.

I do know that the ejuice does have a reaction in the bottle. Once I ordered a tangerine liquid. When I got the [plastic] bottle in the mail, the bottle was sucked in so much that the bottle was pretty deformed looking on delivery. I e-mailed the vendor, and he said that they used the natural limonine flavor in their forumula and that's how it reacted in the plastic bottles. He also said they were going to start using artificial flavor instead of the natural because of that. Personally, I like natural when I can get it -- just seems tastier and safer.

The only thing I can think of is ordering glass bottles. When the liquid gets so low the glass dropper won't reach, I could funnel it into a 3ml sample bottle to glean the remaining drops.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Nikhil]

I found this PDF chart at US Plastics which says that PET is actually better for protection against sunlight and oxidation that the polyethylene material.

What causes flavor loss after a while? Is it oxidation from mixing too large of a bottle (30ml), or is it the wrong kind of plastic (PET, PVC, PS) the bottles are made of leaching into the e-juice?

For one thing, I know for sure it isn't me, because the 30ml juices taste great when they're new, and I always shake them b4 using, even just between drippings. The flavor just keeps fading until I have to add more.

What I've noticed so far is that the smaller 15ml bottles seem to hold their flavor. Another thing I've noticed when I inspect my bottles is that Tasty Vapor is the only juice co. I've done business with that uses the HDPE plastics to bottle his juices, and his are the ones that I don't have any problems with losing flavor -- but, OTOH, it's also a 15 ml bottle that comes w/his bottle w/the doubler that I mix them with.

This is really bugging me lately, does anyone know? Only guessing, I would say it is oxidation, but I would appreciate someone enlightening me if they know. Please and thank you.

 

[zoiDman]

I found this PDF chart at US Plastics which says that PET is actually better for protection against sunlight and oxidation that the polyethylene material.

From that PDF chart, Polyvinyl Chloride has a better resistence to oils and acids. Might be hard to squeze the bottle thou.

 

[Seabrook]

Pure, thanks for the chart link. I did actually see that at US Plastics, and that's how I decided on the HDPE for my own bottles. I think I'm going to go a totally different route, though, and buy glass amber bottles for my own personal storage now (like zoiDman mentioned)-- just making sure I fill them to the brim to reduce the oxygen damage.

Switched, I think I'll do what you do and use daily portion-sized bottles. Now, why didn't I think of that? If something happens, better it happens to 3ml instead of 30.

I'll see w/the glass bottles if it makes a diff in the flavor loss issue for me. Thanks for always being there for me, guys and gals.

 

[zoiDman]

... I think I'm going to go a totally different route, though, and buy glass amber bottles for my own personal storage now (like zoiDman mentioned)-- just making sure I fill them to the brim to reduce the oxygen damage.
...

It's hard to beat glass in my mind. I like these...

Cobalt Blue Boston Round Glass Bottle 1 oz w/ Dropper - 1oz DROPPER

Not sure where your get your supplies but this a cool site. They have all kinds of stuff. Check out there tin section.

BTW - 1oz = 30ml

 

[Sandybeach40]

I think E Liquid should all come in glass bottles. There is no doubt in my mind that the plastic is leached into the juice. E liquid eats the paint off everything it touches and i know that it is eating the plastic bottle. I have a glass bottle from JC from a month ago and the juice still tastes as fresh as it did the day I got it. That's proof enough that glass is the saving grace when it comes to e juice.

I have a 30 Ml 24 Mg juice from 1 week ago and the plastic bottle is now a little less than a quarter full. It has become runny as water and it taste and smells terrible now. I'm never going to order 30 Ml ever again.

 

[Nikhil]

I don't think that's true. I've had plastic bottles of liquid unaffected for months. A lot of high quality flavoring companies sell their volatile flavoring chemicals in a PG base in plastic bottles. Nicotine liquid often comes in plastic bottles as well.

None of the ingredients should 'eat' at plastic, it's not like they are acidic. If it were true that the plastic was getting into the liquid, the result would be a dead atty that couldn't vaporize the plastic, not the liquid getting watery. That's probably the VG/PG absorbing moisture from the air.

Maybe there's a correlation, but I'm skeptical about cause and effect.

 

[sjohnson]

Polyethylene degrades fairly rapidly on exposure to ultraviolet (years), oxygen (tens of years) and a recently discovered rare bacteria (months).

It's highly inert and non-reactive due to its crystalline structure, though. It's often used for chemical containers for that reason.

My current (temporary) job is with a company that produces polyethylene products. They conduct a LOT of research on polyethylene aging and failure modes inasmuch as some of their products are warrantied for 20 years and are used in industrial containment - where any leak can lead to environmental disaster and heavy fines.

 

[Seabrook]

I'm switching to glass bottles for storage and using the 3ml HDPE or a safer plastic for transferring a 3ml amount into for a daily vape like Switched recommended.

The two links below are a couple of articles showing the scientific proof which can now eliminate our guessing and opinions. The get these links, I googled "plastics leaching chemicals."

Step 5: Be Wise With Plastics | The 5 Easy Steps | Healthy Child Healthy World


http://trusted.md/blog/vreni_gurd/2007/03/29/plastic_water_bottles#axzz0xGUd7nNt

Thanks everyone for your input. I think I'd rather be safe than sorry. It takes only a few cents more.

 

[Elf]

I had an interesting experience few months ago. I was using up the rest of an Atomic Cinnacide doubler bottle, mixing it with some unflavored nic liquid and some extra cinnamon flavor in some plastic bottles. After a few days, I noticed the cinnamon flavor fading and it was starting to taste "soapy", as if i was vaping soap bubbles. The taste got worse with time. I wondered if it was the bottles, so i threw out the bottles (and the liquid inside) and tried again. this time, I used one plastic bottle, and one glass bottle. After a bit, I noticed the same thing with both bottles again. I tossed the plastic one and rinsed out the glass. Then I decided I should directly sample from the double bottle.. it couldn't possibly be the culprit..
but sure enough, it was, and out it went..
I still don't know if it was something in the plastic bottle of the doubler itself (would seem unlikely? I use his smaller 30ml ones to mix in - they are always fine, and the doubler bottle seems to be made of the same stuff), or if the problem was in the doubler mix I got itself. All this though makes me wonder if there are other things that can adversely affect the liquid, besides perhaps the wrong plastic..

 

[zoiDman]

I had an interesting experience few months ago. I was using up the rest of an Atomic Cinnacide doubler bottle, mixing it with some unflavored nic liquid and some extra cinnamon flavor in some plastic bottles. After a few days, I noticed the cinnamon flavor fading and it was starting to taste "soapy", as if i was vaping soap bubbles. ...

You beat me to it...

Yes, I had the Exact same thing happen to me.

I am in the habbit of allways shaking my bottles before refilling a carto. The other day I whent to refill a E2 carto with A/C from a 15ml mixing bottle. When I went to shake the mixing bottle, I noticed that the A/C had not seperated. It was ALL clear, Darkish Yellow.

I thought maybe I had shaken it earlier so I gave it a quick shake and refilled. The tatse was funny. It tatsed metalic. I figured that the E2 carto was going bad.

But when I tried the A/C from the mixing bottle in a New carto it tatse the same. I then tried A/C straight from the bottles that they came in and it tatsed fine.

I don't like when people say that plastic bottle can't do this or can do that because there are many different types of plastic bottles out there. And it was clear that something happened to the A/C in my mixing bottle that made it change.

I also know that A/C will eat the plastic on a some of the hard mouth pieces that come on carto. Notice that I didn't same All mouth pieces. It does seem to react with the solft mouth pieces, silicone?, that come on Boge Blank 510 cartos.

So yes, I firmly believe that certain e-juices can react with certain plastic bottle. I also think that Oil-Based flavors would be the most reactive verses water base flavors.

Needless to say I'm keeping my A/C in glass from here on out and will move to glass for everything soon.

 

[Nobodyatall]

There are another pair of factors that may be coming into play in the fading taste scenario.

1. Loss of aromatic elements.

2. Oxidation of the flavoring substance.

I seem to be able to manipulate the flavor of a given bottle of juice by simply squeezing the air/vapor out and letting air in. The general effect is to "soften" the flavor. The change is easily discernible by simply smelling the air discharged each time (on different days) and noting the change.

I'm currently vaping on a bottle of watermelon that came in tasting a little too much like candy, but has been reduced to a nice mellow watermelon sweetness. Had some coffee that was the same way. A little rough and harsh on the bitter notes, but became a nice chocolatey coffee flavor with little of the earlier harshness.

Which effect is doing what is a question for a chemist with a gas chromatograph and too much time on his hands.

And I just have to say... those are some really nifty blue bottles! Gotta get some.

 

[Seabrook]

Elf, good job on the perserverance of narrowing down the soapy problem!

HOWEVER, you're freakin me out, here! As a newb vaper (only 5 mos.). I've got a LOT of juice in storage -- some doublers, some AC, but not all of it is TV's brand. It's in a dark closet. So if I go check it out right now, do you think its possible that all my "secret stash" might be soapy tasting? Like totally fubar? Like I might have to throw it out like you had to throw yours out?

Do you mind if I pry a little? Like, how did you store your doubler? In the fridge, in your closet, in your basement? Did you order your doubler in all PG or all VG or a blend of both? Do you have other juices in storage? If so, did you check them? Or was that prob just specific to the doubler?

I see you live in Calif, same as me, so it can't be the heat unless you live in Bakersfield or some other blazing hot hellhole like that, LOL. I live on the beach, so mine just stays on a shelf in my closet.

SunVapor, an ECF moderator, lost over $400 worth of juice. He attributed its demise to refrigeration storage.

Wouldn't that be awful to store 2 yrs of juice away and open it up and find it ALL spoiled. Pure nicotine is supposed to have a shelf life of about 2 years, but I wonder if the nic mixed w/PG or VG would nullify that or possibly divert that figure to a different [lesser?] value. Maybe we're supposed to be storing each item separate and then mix the appropriate blend as we use it?

I don't know ----- do you know?

 

[sjohnson]

The more complicated you make any system, the more likely it can be that unintended consequences can occur.

I DIY for all our e-liquids. I keep basic components (6 months or so quantities, in bulk) separate, what we'll vape in a month (100-250 ml) as an unflavored mix of nicotine, VG, PG, PGA and/or water, and mix flavors one to several days before using.

The intermediate step of mixing unflavored nicotine a month at a time is one of convenience. I really dislike making the unflavored base, so do it infrequently and in quantity. Else, I think it'd be better to mix it as needed from the original components.

 

[Elf]

Elf, good job on the perserverance of narrowing down the soapy problem!

HOWEVER, you're freakin me out, here! As a newb vaper (only 5 mos.). I've got a LOT of juice in storage -- some doublers, some AC, but not all of it is TV's brand. It's in a dark closet. So if I go check it out right now, do you think its possible that all my "secret stash" might be soapy tasting? Like totally fubar? Like I might have to throw it out like you had to throw yours out?

Do you mind if I pry a little? Like, how did you store your doubler? In the fridge, in your closet, in your basement? Did you order your doubler in all PG or all VG or a blend of both? Do you have other juices in storage? If so, did you check them? Or was that prob just specific to the doubler?

I see you live in Calif, same as me, so it can't be the heat unless you live in Bakersfield or some other blazing hot hellhole like that, LOL. I live on the beach, so mine just stays on a shelf in my closet.
...

Well, I never did find out what the culprit was that made it taste like soap bubbles. The doubler bottle was perhaps a month and a half old, maybe half full or so. It was sitting on the kitchen counter, and the kitchen itself receives no direct sunlight. I would venture to guess the temperature range at a low of 68 and a high of 79. I think it was 40% or 45% VG. I am puzzled by your comment that someone had liquid go bad in the fridge? I thought that was the best place for long term storage?

Anyway I had never had the problem of any liquid changing/losing its flavor or tasting soapy before. When I say "soapy", i really mean it.. one puff and i swear i felt like i was going to be blowing soap bubbles on the exhale, and it left a nasty soapy taste in my mouth. It tasted okay when I got it, so my only thought is something had to have changed inside in the month or month and a half it was on my counter. Curiously, my previous AC doubler never showed those symptoms and was "good to the last drop". I can't think of anything I did differently with them though. They both sat on the counter, in the same place.

You'd think I'd have been mad or at least annoyed having to throw it out, but honestly I've almost completely switched (99%) to mixing my own liquids anyway . (Completely aside, I also came up with my own recipe for something even better (in my opinion) than AC. I call it Elf's Sweet Cinnamon, and I posted that recently in the Recipe section if you are interested.) So now I pretty much just make my own liquids, and keep my house (and the neighbors too, in fact) supplied all the time. I am still using Platinum Ice mixing liquid I bought a year ago, along with PG I bought at the same time, but in this house we seem to go through 30ml every 3 days or so it seems, so the main flavors always get vaped up pretty quick and I am constantly mixing more.

Still, over the past year or so I've gathered quite a collection of different bottles (3-30ml) of various flavors - and the ones I have had a drop or 2 of recently still don't seem to really have changed any. The only problem of any kind I had with a liquid before like this was well... this. The rest seems perfectly fine to me. I simply don't often use them however as I seem to enjoy my own flavors much better than I ever enjoyed any of the ones I bought. In fact most may end up thrown out some day because we just don't use them. I do have a 30ml and a doubler of Geoff's blend in the fridge. It's been there maybe a month and a half I am guessing, but I have not tried it recently (uh-oh. month and a half.. hmmm. I do really like Geoffs blend; I think its a pretty amazing flavor, but its just not getting used lately because everyone seems to like my Sweet Cinnamon better!)