Flavoring Concern
- Thread starter SikVapor
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
i believe that "vanillin" is another commonly listed ingredient.
i thought that "ethol maltol" is commonly used as a sweetener in eliquid.
i thought surgar(in whatever form) is what causes cavities? i dont think artificial sweeteners do.
hey lynn, if im wrong with any of these statements, please correct me. (no, really)
'Lynn, you're my hero!
DITTO....she's MY hero too! Wow Lynn!! That was impressive!
You've taken this very simple question into a whole other level of wacky. ... I said repeatedly that I'm talking about asking the juice supplier for confirmation or denial of use as an active ingredient, not 2 molecules out of 50 thousand gallons.
Leaford had no problem chiming in on the matter in February. It didn't shake any foundations then, why should it now (especially after it has since been proven that a new substitute chemical produces the same damage)?
Bottom line, its a very simple question. One that has been asked and addressed before, without issue. No clue why you're turning it into a huge deal. You can object to the asking, but I still pose the simple question to V4L. No offense to you personally, Lynn
Last edited:
'Lynn, you're my hero!
Don't know about that
- but thanks for the kind words. And you as well, bpaulette - we can certainly disagree. (and :smooch:, Sally)I thought the "active ingredient" was Nicotine? I am not trying to pick on you here. There are a lot of inactive ingredients, and since there's no pharmacological value (that I'm aware of) in diacetyl ...
I do have to wonder about humanity drinking diacetyl-enriched beverages by the bazillions of gallons for thousands of years - perhaps as long as humanity has existed, and suddenly we're talking about minuscule amounts like it's the end of the world? I know it's divergent to the topic, but some of the flip-flopping in product statements just make me shake my head. My point in inventing imaginary toxins lies in this. "Antioxidents prevent cancer! Eat a blue meal every day!" "Errr - it makes no difference" "Errr - well, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't." "The tannins in wine will kill you!" "The tannins in wine prevent heart disease!" "The tannins in wine will kill you, but you'll have a great heart to donate!" [...] I privately suspect that the number of public scares that one creates dictates their eventual retirement benefits.
I really don't care what V4L thinks, or how they choose to reply (or not) in this case. I'm simply stating my take on the topic, you have your concerns, and I have my concerns related to your concerns in some inverted sorta fashion.
I am sorry that I'm failing to convey my concerns and viewpoint. It's the responsibility of the person attempting to communicate their point to succeed at it. I'm at a loss for how to do that any better, so I apologize to you that I've, so far, failed to accomplish that.
This was copied from a different supplier's, not V4L, Website.
"Our liquids do NOT contain Diacetyl, a substance that is highly toxic when inhaled.
Our liquids do NOT contain Diethylene Glycol"
Seems to work. I think something like this is all that bpaulette is looking for.
Whether or not the toxicity statement is true, I would prefer that part was left off, it does answer the question.
Not looking for trouble, just sayin'
BTW Lynn, you are one of the reasons I look at this sub forum. You make me smile and keep me thinking...or at least scratching my bald head..
"Our liquids do NOT contain Diacetyl, a substance that is highly toxic when inhaled.
Our liquids do NOT contain Diethylene Glycol"
Seems to work. I think something like this is all that bpaulette is looking for.
Whether or not the toxicity statement is true, I would prefer that part was left off, it does answer the question.
Not looking for trouble, just sayin'
BTW Lynn, you are one of the reasons I look at this sub forum. You make me smile and keep me thinking...or at least scratching my bald head..
Thank you as well, Magilla.
It's clear that I need to research, for my own edification, diacetyl inhalation with more depth. It's likely that, with a high toxicity rating, I'm already dead from a decade and a half of brewing (I tend to favor the rich ales that are enriched with naturally occuring diacetyl). And if I'm dead, then I'm obviously in hell - and that's a mean trick not to tell me.
Seriously, BPaulette, I think I'm diluting my own argument repeatedly in an attempt not to appear to be attacking you. You don't deserve my ire, and I'm not all that good at not being blunt, so that's probably where I'm falling down. So it's not my intent to step on your proverbial throat - just so you know.
It's clear that I need to research, for my own edification, diacetyl inhalation with more depth. It's likely that, with a high toxicity rating, I'm already dead from a decade and a half of brewing (I tend to favor the rich ales that are enriched with naturally occuring diacetyl). And if I'm dead, then I'm obviously in hell - and that's a mean trick not to tell me.
Seriously, BPaulette, I think I'm diluting my own argument repeatedly in an attempt not to appear to be attacking you. You don't deserve my ire, and I'm not all that good at not being blunt, so that's probably where I'm falling down. So it's not my intent to step on your proverbial throat - just so you know.
I just ran into this thread - i have not been following this controversy at all (and don't want to) - but I have been reading DIy treads and websites and talking to other DIY's lately as I am starting get into that. One thing I have learned is that Perfumers Apprentice - a major DIY flavoring source does not use diacetyl in any of it's flavorings - I have also read post from DIY'ers who have talked to the owner, named Linda, and said she has always been open and upfront about her ingredients. I have been to Perfumers Apprentice website and saw that one of her flavorings is called simply butter. So, what I am getting at, is if your really want to know what some people are using instead of diacetyl - she would probably be a good person to ask - she is based in CA and I just went to her website and the numbers on the bottom of the homepage.
Thank you as well, Magilla.
It's clear that I need to research, for my own edification, diacetyl inhalation with more depth. It's likely that, with a high toxicity rating, I'm already dead from a decade and a half of brewing (I tend to favor the rich ales that are enriched with naturally occuring diacetyl). And if I'm dead, then I'm obviously in hell - and that's a mean trick not to tell me.
Seriously, BPaulette, I think I'm diluting my own argument repeatedly in an attempt not to appear to be attacking you. You don't deserve my ire, and I'm not all that good at not being blunt, so that's probably where I'm falling down. So it's not my intent to step on your proverbial throat - just so you know.
Butter, interesting. What does butter contain? Among other things, flavoring, colorings and preservatives, (look it up). Not to mention salt. So how far does one go to figure out what is in a product?
Butter may be an ingredient but it has its own set.
Butter may be an ingredient but it has its own set.
here's a c/p from flavor arts website,My be of some help.
About Diacetyl
As example, butter flavor dosed at 0,3% in E juice. The amount of diacetyl in 100 ml of E.juice is 0,0045 grams. Assuming that a typical E cigarette contains an average of 2 ml of E juice, the amount of diacetyl assumed in a smoking session is...... 0,00009 grams or 0,09 ppm (part per million).
Always consider the dosage in use !
Apple pie 0,4
Beer 0,001
Butter 1,5
Buterscotch 0,012
Beef boiled 0,00005
Bell pepper 0,01
Chestnut 0,03
Champagne 0,0016
Coconut 0,5
Croissant 0,074
Cheese Erdammer 0,09
Cheese Emmenthal 0,018
Cheese Parmigiano 0,29
Coffee 0,27
Caramel and butterscotch 0,07
Corn 0,2
Cream 0,078
Egg yolk 0,015
Fried 0,01
Golden syrup 0,09
Hazelnut 0,01
Maple 0,012
Milk condensed 0,5
Malt 0,01
Melon 0,01
Nut wild mix 0,9
Olive 0,01
Potato 0,00012
Pistacchio 0,0015
Rum 0,022
Soy sauce 0,35
Salmon 0,02
Truffle black 0,1
Tiramisu 0,05
Vanlla Madagascar 0,04
Vanilla Tahiti 0,08
Yogurt 1,6
About Diacetyl
As example, butter flavor dosed at 0,3% in E juice. The amount of diacetyl in 100 ml of E.juice is 0,0045 grams. Assuming that a typical E cigarette contains an average of 2 ml of E juice, the amount of diacetyl assumed in a smoking session is...... 0,00009 grams or 0,09 ppm (part per million).
Always consider the dosage in use !
Apple pie 0,4
Beer 0,001
Butter 1,5
Buterscotch 0,012
Beef boiled 0,00005
Bell pepper 0,01
Chestnut 0,03
Champagne 0,0016
Coconut 0,5
Croissant 0,074
Cheese Erdammer 0,09
Cheese Emmenthal 0,018
Cheese Parmigiano 0,29
Coffee 0,27
Caramel and butterscotch 0,07
Corn 0,2
Cream 0,078
Egg yolk 0,015
Fried 0,01
Golden syrup 0,09
Hazelnut 0,01
Maple 0,012
Milk condensed 0,5
Malt 0,01
Melon 0,01
Nut wild mix 0,9
Olive 0,01
Potato 0,00012
Pistacchio 0,0015
Rum 0,022
Soy sauce 0,35
Salmon 0,02
Truffle black 0,1
Tiramisu 0,05
Vanlla Madagascar 0,04
Vanilla Tahiti 0,08
Yogurt 1,6
Just going to throw something out there and this is very generic. I just hope it's understandable!
Say the FDA, or any other body supposedly responsible for determinining safe levels of a substance, declares that x substance is safe at y levels but toxic at z levels.
I assume some would want to know what brands were close to the line of being not safe. Reason being is that they might be consuming multiple things that contain the substance and, collectively, that might pose some threat of toxicity.
Now, I know that one might say that because you're not consuming those things all at once, you're not at risk, but what if you were vaping, drinking, and eating in the same space of say, an hour. Would that pose a higher risk?
I think that if someone wants to know what they're consuming, they should be able to find out. If you are not given access, then you have two choices: go to another vendor who will disclose or go the DIY route using only those vendors who list complete ingredients.
I have chosen the DIY route for myself because I want to know that nothing I make has any nicotine in it at all; purposely or non-purposely. There was the recent news about nic being found in non-nic carts in Japan. Whether it was intended or not, I choose not to consume nic. The only way I can assure myself (or mostly assure) is to DIY.
BPaulette, I hope you get enough information to either answer your question, or put to rest your fears... or better yet, both!
Say the FDA, or any other body supposedly responsible for determinining safe levels of a substance, declares that x substance is safe at y levels but toxic at z levels.
I assume some would want to know what brands were close to the line of being not safe. Reason being is that they might be consuming multiple things that contain the substance and, collectively, that might pose some threat of toxicity.
Now, I know that one might say that because you're not consuming those things all at once, you're not at risk, but what if you were vaping, drinking, and eating in the same space of say, an hour. Would that pose a higher risk?
I think that if someone wants to know what they're consuming, they should be able to find out. If you are not given access, then you have two choices: go to another vendor who will disclose or go the DIY route using only those vendors who list complete ingredients.
I have chosen the DIY route for myself because I want to know that nothing I make has any nicotine in it at all; purposely or non-purposely. There was the recent news about nic being found in non-nic carts in Japan. Whether it was intended or not, I choose not to consume nic. The only way I can assure myself (or mostly assure) is to DIY.
BPaulette, I hope you get enough information to either answer your question, or put to rest your fears... or better yet, both!
Well, to be clear.... from what I've read, diacetyl (and apparently similar compounds now used as a substitute) is harmless when ingested. Its only harmful when inhaled, and only then when inhaled in large amounts. ...and they didn't figure this out until quite recently (the link between "popcorn lung" and the chemical wasn't made until 2000?). This hasn't affected a lot of people either - thus far, only workers in a popcorn factories, a couple of longtime popcorn freaks (who habitually ate at least 2 bags of popcorn a day for like 15 years), as well as a Blockbuster video employee who prepared 30 bags at a time, in a small room, twice per week.
Once they realized this, they immediately started using substitute chemicals. But the FDA is a bunch of dumbasses, as we know, and just within the last year, they've found that the substitute chemical does the same thing
...now, I'm no authority on this stuff, just been reading a lot - Google is your friend - and the link posted above by Volunteer Vapor is good general info as well
I would imagine that its like most things in life, if you inhale a small amount of this, you're fine. As Lynn pointed out, its a trace element in the air you breathe... it fills your kitchen when you make popcorn or reduce a wine sauce on the stove. But heavy vaping... where exactly does that fall in comparison to the amount inhaled nightly by a Blockbuster employee who makes 30 bags at a time, twice per week? I don't have a clue, because I have no data on volumes of either - no basis for comparison - and possibly nobody does
Last edited:
Yup. That's why I said my equation was generic because you would have to vape that particular stuff to get to toxic levels.
I think my question falls to any active ingredient that is in what we use and I didn't mean to bust into your thread with my query.
I just think that we have a right to know.
This is an excellent post! And thank you for writing it. But let's translate that for the capacity of the Cartomizers in question.
Assume: The mixture you list is correct, at 0.3%
Assume: The amount of diacetyl in 100ml of e-juice is correct at 0.0045 grams.
[Note: neither of these two assumptions have been verified by or to me for any product from anyone. I'm simply taking them at face value.]
A cartomizer typically holds about 1ml of liquid mixture. (give or take 0.1ml)
0.0045 grams / 100 ml (we're looking for 1ml, our concentration is 0.0045 gr PER 100ml)
0.0045 / 100 = 0.000045
0.000045 gr/ml aka 0.000045 gr per cartomizer.
Not very many of us are going to vape an entire cartomizer in a single sitting (aka "session") ! Some time back we loosely established around 2.5ml/day as the "average" here for V4L users. 0.000045 * 2.5 = 0.0001125gr/day = 0.003375 gr/month = 0.0405 gr/year And that's assuming the body doesn't dispose of _any_ of it.
With the assumptions above, that's the exposure levels for that particular vendor's juice (ie. NO RELATION TO V4L ESTABLISHED OR CLAIMED OR EVEN CONSIDERED)
(this is why I love that Lynn is around)
Given those measurements, one would also need to know how much and how concentrated a substance would need to be in order to cause damage.
This is the closest I could find, to supplying info of that type -
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/flavorings/pdfs/Hubbs-FlavoringsAbstract-Toxicologist2010.pdf
This was a study done on the most common SUBSTITUTE for diacetyl, 2,3-Pentanedione (not diacetyl itself, which has already been stated as not being used in V4L juices). Granted, I have no idea if 2,3-Pantanedione is being used - just sharing for reference
Although this study does show that the substitute can cause the same damage as diacetyl - in general - it certainly doesn't help at all in establishing an understanding of what's a "safe" concentration... They went straight from zero to a ginormous concentration.
118 to 318 ppm is a FAR greater concentration than any sub-ingredient of a flavor in any vapor would produce... we're talking about a possible 0,09 ppm (or 0,045 ppm in Lynn's breakdown above) per carto vaping scenario. So... HUGE difference...
...IN OTHER NEWS, people who take zero tablets of ibuprofen exhibit no symptoms, while subjects swallowing more than 5000 50mg tablets within a 6 hour period experienced severe side effects.... .... awesome to know. thanks.
Wish I woulda taken some chem classes in college. Or stats. This stuff is fascinating to me, but half the time I'm not totally confident that the way in which I'm interpreting data is correct.... So thanks for your help in deciphering some of this Lynn
Given those measurements, one would also need to know how much and how concentrated a substance would need to be in order to cause damage.
This is the closest I could find, to supplying info of that type -
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/flavorings/pdfs/Hubbs-FlavoringsAbstract-Toxicologist2010.pdf
This was a study done on the most common SUBSTITUTE for diacetyl, 2,3-Pentanedione (not diacetyl itself, which has already been stated as not being used in V4L juices). Granted, I have no idea if 2,3-Pantanedione is being used - just sharing for reference
Although this study does show that the substitute can cause the same damage as diacetyl - in general - it certainly doesn't help at all in establishing an understanding of what's a "safe" concentration... They went straight from zero to a ginormous concentration.
118 to 318 ppm is a FAR greater concentration than any sub-ingredient of a flavor in any vapor would produce... we're talking about a possible 0,09 ppm (or 0,045 ppm in Lynn's breakdown above) per carto vaping scenario. So... HUGE difference...
...IN OTHER NEWS, people who take zero tablets of ibuprofen exhibit no symptoms, while subjects swallowing more than 5000 50mg tablets within a 6 hour period experienced severe side effects.... .... awesome to know. thanks.
Wish I woulda taken some chem classes in college. Or stats. This stuff is fascinating to me, but half the time I'm not totally confident that the way in which I'm interpreting data is correct.... So thanks for your help in deciphering some of this Lynn
Last edited:
I'm thinking that Lynn's scenario indicates "trace" amounts? I'm not exactly certain what a trace of that would be as a trace of plutonium can't be good.
If that is correct we don't even want to know what trace amounts of some chemicals we may be ingesting daily that may be perfectly acceptable to most people and to the FDA, (as if they knew what they were doing)..
The FDA (or anyone else for that matter) doesn't require listing of traces of some pretty dangerous stuff. Take nicotine. Pure nicotine is something you don't want to get close to or even handle without special chemical resistant gloves. If there is anything dangerous in the E-Cigs we vape that would be #1 on the list.
BTW: Such an interesting discussion!!!!
.
If that is correct we don't even want to know what trace amounts of some chemicals we may be ingesting daily that may be perfectly acceptable to most people and to the FDA, (as if they knew what they were doing)..
The FDA (or anyone else for that matter) doesn't require listing of traces of some pretty dangerous stuff. Take nicotine. Pure nicotine is something you don't want to get close to or even handle without special chemical resistant gloves. If there is anything dangerous in the E-Cigs we vape that would be #1 on the list.
BTW: Such an interesting discussion!!!!
.
The other issue I see is scaling. Rats are good analogs in that if a problem exists with them it may exist in humans. But their mass is a lot lower, and metabolism a lot higher. So those numbers would probably be terribly low for humans too.
Even in rats - they're sucking down 2622 cartomizers nearly instantaneously to experience the results on the lowest end. (118/0.045)
This is one of the reasons that I was concerned about "impression" versus "reality". PG is toxic in slightly more realistic concentrations - as is VG.
Even in rats - they're sucking down 2622 cartomizers nearly instantaneously to experience the results on the lowest end. (118/0.045)
This is one of the reasons that I was concerned about "impression" versus "reality". PG is toxic in slightly more realistic concentrations - as is VG.
Last edited:
Perhaps what they should try is conceal a Rodent in a dutch oven of Vapor (Wowboy for example) for an hour and study the effects.
Everything is toxic at high doses (even water), so they need to mimic a hardcore vape session.
Everything is toxic at high doses (even water), so they need to mimic a hardcore vape session.
There's a few forum members I'd like to toss in an oven and observe the effects on after an hour...
- Status
Similar threads
