Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?

[Mr.Mann]

Just been looking at "Grant's Vanilla Custard " the website Hello and welcome to | Grant's Vanilla Custard shows a certificate stating that there are no harmful chemicals.

Can this be true no......... Diketones.................what so ever ,I thought it was the custards that are particularly bad still trying to get my head around this.

Also i sent them a message on facebook, asking if it was free from diacetyl, acetyl propionyl and acetoin the response was (i am only grants web guy can i ask why are these particular chemicals of interest to you) .............this just goes to show what we are dealing with, he got back stating the test certificate prooves there its safe.

so any" one out there" can you enlighten me ?

If not specifically addressed, I would take it as nothing more than empty rhetoric. Honestly, if you really try the liquid you will be able to tell. HeadinClouds once stated that if you just familiarize yourself with DA/AP, you will be able to notice it. It is very true and my taster is proving to be on the money with noticing it now. I have not had GVC, so I can't say, but I wouldn't bet that it is free of diketones.

 

[scooters]

Thanks Mr Mann...so the test certificate means nowt, unless they are looking for specific chemicals ?

 

[Mr.Mann]

Thanks Mr Mann...so the test certificate means nowt, unless they are looking for specific chemicals ?

Specificity and documentation is the important thing here -- and limit of detection (some tests can give "false" positives if the LOD wasn't low enough). For years vendors/manufacturers have been saying their liquids/flavors have been "tested" and we are still here.

 

[scooters]

Just out of curiosity Mr Mann, what do you tend to vape these days ?

 

[Zelphie]

What always confuses me is that many claim to have removed diacetyl, but there is NO meantion of the absence or removal of (acetyl propionyl) 2,3-pentanedione, (acetyl butyryl) 2,3-hexanedione, (acetyl valeryl) 2,3-heptanedione, acetoin and diacetyl trimer. We all hear about acetyl propionyl and acetoin, as potentially dangerous substitutes,.. yet no one seems to be asking about those. And theres even more substitutes. With SOOO many chemicals making up any one flavor, I would expect nothing less than a Pandora's box. It doesn't have to be about BO either, if you look up the chemicals that creates any single flavor then research each chemical's toxicology,...it gets interesting, though proves nothing. Around here lack of proof seems to equal proof of the opposite with some,... but Some research into flavorings that I did back in 2010 made me concerned about possible neurological effects from various and unrelated chemicals.

This concerns me because diacetyl substitutes are being used and the "none of our flavors contain diacetyl" statement is working to placate.
"According to NIOSH, “2,3-pentanedione, 2,3-hexanedione and 2,3-heptanedione are less water soluble than diacetyl, which could mean that they penetrate deeper into the lungs and could have an even greater toxicity than diacetyl.”
Source: http://cms.iuf.org/sites/cms.iuf.org/files/Diacetyl alert.pdf

 

[Zelphie]

Just been looking at "Grant's Vanilla Custard " the website Hello and welcome to | Grant's Vanilla Custard shows a certificate stating that there are no harmful chemicals.

Can this be true no......... Diketones.................what so ever ,I thought it was the custards that are particularly bad still trying to get my head around this.

Also i sent them a message on facebook, asking if it was free from diacetyl, acetyl propionyl and acetoin the response was (i am only grants web guy can i ask why are these particular chemicals of interest to you) .............this just goes to show what we are dealing with, he got back stating the test certificate prooves there its safe.

so any" one out there" can you enlighten me ?

Nope,Im sure its BS. Nevermind, I just looked, ya, its a most generic form of BS.

As a side note, they don't test for what they don't know about, so that "free of things that cause known inhalations risk" is only as good as what is known to them, what things they think they should be concerned about (but aren't really), and what they think will shut us up.

 

[Kurt]

Specificity and documentation is the important thing here -- and limit of detection (some tests can give "false" positives if the LOD wasn't low enough). For years vendors/manufacturers have been saying their liquids/flavors have been "tested" and we are still here.

I think you mean false negatives. Some tests have very high Limits of Detection and Limits of Quantification, and so DA or AP might be present, but it is reported as not present because it was below LOD.

 

[Zelphie]

Are tobacco flavors safe? Or even they require harmful chemicals to make them taste the way they do?

Diketones can be used in tobaccos, and if they are NETs without any added flavor, (to the tobacco itself or in mixing) I have to wonder if diketones are naturally present in tobacco as it is with some things. And if so, was it removed? I don't know who can answer that.

 

[Kurt]

What always confuses me is that many claim to have removed diacetyl, but there is NO meantion of the absence or removal of (acetyl propionyl) 2,3-pentanedione, (acetyl butyryl) 2,3-hexanedione, (acetyl valeryl) 2,3-heptanedione, acetoin and diacetyl trimer. We all hear about acetyl propionyl and acetoin, as potentially dangerous substitutes,.. yet no one seems to be asking about those. And theres even more substitutes. With SOOO many chemicals making up any one flavor, I would expect nothing less than a Pandora's box. It doesn't have to be about BO either, if you look up the chemicals that creates any single flavor then research each chemical's toxicology,...it gets interesting, though proves nothing. Around here lack of proof seems to equal proof of the opposite with some,... but Some research into flavorings that I did back in 2010 made me concerned about possible neurological effects from various and unrelated chemicals.

This concerns me because diacetyl substitutes are being used and the "none of our flavors contain diacetyl" statement is working to placate.
"According to NIOSH, “2,3-pentanedione, 2,3-hexanedione and 2,3-heptanedione are less water soluble than diacetyl, which could mean that they penetrate deeper into the lungs and could have an even greater toxicity than diacetyl.”
Source: http://cms.iuf.org/sites/cms.iuf.org/files/Diacetyl alert.pdf

Correct. We did not test for these other two longer diketones, but they are almost certainly as risky as DA and AP. I know of at least one verified use of 2,3-hexanedione, but AP is also present. I am not aware of inhalation risks from acetoin, per se, but it is very hard to acquire acetoin that is not contaminated with DA (it seems to be a natural by-product of the purification steps of acetoin).

In our study, we also assumed that AP would be used instead of DA in order to get the right taste while claiming DA-free. This was the case with some samples, but in many AP-positive samples we also saw DA! So I think that while this marketing tactic was being used to claim DA-free (while using AP which less people know about), DA was also present, hopefully without the compounder's or vendor's knowledge. I prefer to assume they were ignorant of the presence of DA, rather than simply being deceitful.

 

[Kurt]

Diketones can be used in tobaccos, and if they are NETs without any added flavor, (to the tobacco itself or in mixing) I have to wonder if diketones are naturally present in tobacco as it is with some things. And if so, was it removed? I don't know who can answer that.

We only saw these compounds in tobaccos that were vanilla or caramel flavored, not straight tobaccos. We did not test to see if any or all of the components of tobacco flavors were from NETs, but we concluded that simple tobacco flavors, without vanilla or caramel added, were probably free of DA or AP. That said, we did not test a great number of tobaccos, so this may not be a generally valid statement, just the ones we looked at.

 

[Kurt]

2,3-hexanedione is in TPA Coconut Candy. But it also has AP. This is openly stated on TPA's website. This is a good page to bookmark:

https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx

Find a flavor and click "List" and you will get the components of the flavor in relative %s. In that list, if you click on, for example, Acetyl Propionyl, you will get a list of their flavors that contain AP. There are many.

The other flavor that TPA sells that has hexanedione is Mocha.

I applaud Linda for her hard work in getting this important information to the consumer. And her hard work in creating flavors that mimic creamy custards without these compounds.

 

[scooters]

As this goes on and the more I investigate this, the more it makes me want to detox. Ride the 72hrs (bed and tv) then get through the next 18 days doing yoga and swimming,(then the body is 99% free) and make sure i never put another bit of nicotine in my body.

My intuition is usually very good and its telling me this cant be right...................

 

[LoveVanilla]

As this goes on and the more I investigate this, the more it makes me want to detox. Ride the 72hrs (bed and tv) then get through the next 18 days doing yoga and swimming,(then the body is 99% free) and make sure i never put another bit of nicotine in my body.

My intuition is usually very good and its telling me this cant be right...................

This may be useful for you, My TFA's Choice List. TFA has added 4-5 new flavors but those listed without specified diketones remains accurate.

 

[rurwin]

Just been looking at "Grant's Vanilla Custard " the website Hello and welcome to | Grant's Vanilla Custard shows a certificate stating that there are no harmful chemicals.

Can this be true no......... Diketones.................what so ever ,I thought it was the custards that are particularly bad still trying to get my head around this.

Also i sent them a message on facebook, asking if it was free from diacetyl, acetyl propionyl and acetoin the response was (i am only grants web guy can i ask why are these particular chemicals of interest to you) .............this just goes to show what we are dealing with, he got back stating the test certificate prooves there its safe.

so any" one out there" can you enlighten me ?

It was GVC that I asked ECITA about. The test certificate is valid, but the testing that was carried out included DA but not AP, and at a detection limit far higher than Dr. Farselinos recommends. On 30th July I exchanged emails with GVC. I said

...
Maybe you are aware of Dr. Farsalinos's study into diacetyl and acetyl propionyl in eliquids. He found the 74% of "sweet" eliquids have these two components in them, even if they were declared to have none. It seems that the flavour suppliers are not as honest or knowledgeable as we might hope.

I see that you have a certificate from ECITA, and you are to be commended for going that extra mile. However, having asked ECITA what was tested for, I find it does not agree with the latest (ie Dr Farsalinos's) recommendations.

ECITA says "At the time when GVC was tested, our testing was a general screen for composition, with specific checks for diacetyl, de-ethylene glycol and ethylene glycol. 2,3 pentanedione (acetyl propionyl) has now also been added to the list. The exact level of detection varies, with EG being harder to detect. Since the analytes of interest aren't quantified (unlike nicotine) the levels detected in real samples (rather than standards) is a little uncertain, but is certainly below 0.05%." They later stated that they expected the sensitivity was around 0.005% to 0.01%.

0.05% is about 495μg/ml. However the safe level of diacetyl appears to be around 20μg/ml. Even if the test is as sensitive as they might hope, it appears to be still twice the safe level.

The devil is in the details of course. The EU safe level is four times that used by the Farsalinos study, and until the full report is published we don't know how this safe level was derived, since the official limit it appears to be based on is 5ppb in room air.

However, the fact remains that GVC appears not to have been tested for acetyl propionyl, and it may not have been tested for diacetyl with sufficient sensitivity. Do you have any plans to submit GVC to a more sensitive test for these two components? I believe this should not be prohibitively expensive for a single liquid.

and they said

Thank you for your email, very interesting I might add, I have been suggesting for a long time that all liquids should be tested including all Flavours(not just Custard flavours).

I am always happy to carry out any new test’s that come out and yes I shall contact ECITA now and hopefully be able to take action on having the latest technology of testing applied to our liquids.

I hope that the answer you got from the website guy is not indicative of them forgetting to follow up. I suggest you try emailing Grant himself. Feel free to refer him to my email of 30th July. With only a single flavour liquid and the amount of it he sells, it wouldn't be onerous for him to get the testing done himself.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I think you mean false negatives. Some tests have very high Limits of Detection and Limits of Quantification, and so DA or AP might be present, but it is reported as not present because it was below LOD.

Yeah. I did make a goof on the phrasing.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Just out of curiosity Mr Mann, what do you tend to vape these days ?

Honestly, though I DIY a lot, it's mainly just for being creative. I vape more unflavored than anything. It's about 10:1 unflavored vaping to flavored (a somewhat recent development).

 

[clnire]

Honestly, though I DIY a lot, it's mainly just for being creative. I vape more unflavored than anything. It's about 10:1 unflavored vaping to flavored (a somewhat recent development).

No wonder I don't see you around some of the juice threads anymore...

 

[Mr.Mann]

No wonder I don't see you around some of the juice threads anymore...

Yeah. I am vaping my DIY right at this moment, but I recently only do that after about 9pm or so (for the most part). I honestly just like unflavored more right now, so it's not about any fear of ingredients/chemicals. Just kinda burnt out on the razzle dazzle! I am not saying I won't vape premade (considering I have so much), it's just kinda part of my evolution as a vaper to move on to something else -- though I don't think this love affair with unflavored is going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[ST Dog]

0.05% is about 495μg/ml. However the safe level of diacetyl appears to be around 20μg/ml. Even if the test is as sensitive as they might hope, it appears to be still twice the safe level.

I would suggest he have the individual flavors tested instead of the final mix.
Or maybe all the flavors together to save some money, but not as diluted as in the final product.


Then that 0.01% or 0.005% level would be helpful.

250ug/mL in a flavoring that's only 10% of the final mix, equals 25ug/mL in the final mix even though it's well below the detection level.

 

[scooters]

Thanks for the replies i will try unflavoured see what i think and yes rurwin i will follow this up.