Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?

[Dunder Mifflin]

Butterscotch flavor e liquid pulled from shelf in the UK.
It begins..... https://uk.news.yahoo.com/e-cig-liquid-linked-lung-disease-134609578.html#U5bdL9k
and this...BBC News - E-cigarette liquid bought on Tyneside 'potentially harmful'

 

[JimmyDB]

Oh my gosh... I'm only seven pages in, and I can see already that reading the next 40 pages is going to take a long time.

Any one have a suggested site/page/post that just lists recipes?

Does ECF have a wiki of sorts somewhere that I just haven't found yet, something less linear than the forum?

 

[RonJS]

Any one have a suggested site/page/post that just lists recipes?

E-Liquid Recipes

 

[Hawaiian Nate]

Had to end sometime. Back to smoking ciggs I guess lol. Sometimes ignorance is bliss... Just kidding!!! Gonna mix up some vanilla custard now (capellas V2)

 

[PuffTheMagicKanthal]

A new study verifies the lower risk-potential of e-cigarettes but identifies an avoidable risk

This looks extremely promising, after read the first few pages of alarm and caution it is saying the chemicals are at much higher levels in regular smoking and the chance of getting popcorn lung is rare.

As an ex smoker of 25 years I have been vaping consistently over the past 18 months and am in no way considering stopping. I have over (tried) over 50 flavors and obviously was concerned when hearing of the dangers of vaping. I guess I should stop telling everyone now that taking is just nicotine minus the 4000+ chemicals found in cigarettes.

 

[ST Dog]

it is saying the chemicals are at much higher levels in regular smoking and the chance of getting popcorn lung is rare.

Won't matter to the political types. They don't believe in harm reduction at all.
They will use any possible hint that's more dangerous than distilled water as grounds to severely limit availability and options.

 

[12Cats3Dogs]

Up to Post 397 on this thread.

Reactions: up till about the March/April postings I was scared to death, not wanting to inflict further harm on my already comprised (after 40 yrs of smoking) lungs. Further into the postings, I am relieved to find those of you who have provided us with your due diligence. I will investigate on my own as well. For sure getting rid of juices with the harmful components and hoping to not have to go flavorless. I truly want to stay on vaping, so aiming for the most fruitful, least damaging method. The discussion here has really armed me with some good information.

Racehorse, I really appreciate your comments.

Now to carry on to post 394...

 

[Racehorse]

The study creates more questions than it answered. Which is what a good study does.

That's a great point.

Butterscotch flavor e liquid pulled from shelf in the UK.
It begins..... https://uk.news.yahoo.com/e-cig-liquid-linked-lung-disease-134609578.html#U5bdL9k
and this...BBC News - E-cigarette liquid bought on Tyneside 'potentially harmful'

Not reallly "beginning." Because there are already many vendors like Mountain Oaks Vapor who pulled their own stuff off the shelf and reformulated eliquid so as not to have the major "questionables" in their product. As a vaper, I appreciate that. If something is questionable, I tend to move in the direction of using "less questionable" alternatives. For me, that is easy, because there are so many alternatives.

I was addicted to cigs, and they took from me, they took from my mom who is dying from smoking. I choose to be *extra careful* now, just because of what I've witnessed. And due to the severe damage I already have done to my wonderful lungs which serve me every day so faithfully.

We don't know what safe exposure limit is. Until we know, I just feel like there is more than enough (hundreds as a matter of fact) combinations of flavorings that I can vape that I don't HAVE to vape the ones that *may* pose inhalation risks. Because I honestly think most don't pose risks, so I can easily avoid the ones that might?

I found it rather easy to be cavelier about smoking. That was until I saw someone I love, suffering greatly, gasping for every breath, barely able to make it across the room. I can't describe how much this hurts me, just visualizing it hurts, witnessing it in real life is beyond painful.

To me, there is nothing, and I mean no PLEASURE or HABIT, worth being "in that place". I can't even imagine exchanging life's breath for anything else ......so that is why I'm very risk adverse now.

Not saying anyone else feels that way, or should, just explaining why I do.

And for anyone that says: welll then give up vaping....that won't work because I think vaping, for the most part, is ENTIRELY safe, but I do think that certain flavorings are not, and I'm just not willing to accept any kind of known avoidable risks at this point.

 

[Racehorse]

it is saying the chemicals are at much higher levels in regular smoking and the chance of getting popcorn lung is rare.

That is because while there are no known cases of popcorn lung from vaping or smoking, the researchers also mentioned that it is possible that diagnoses of COPD may be the outcome.....not popcorn lung. It was in the Q & A area of the interview.

And to me, that ain't better.

Avoidable Risk is pretty easy to understand phrase, just like Harm Reduction. To me, harm reduction would tend to "include" avoiding avoidable risks.

 

[stevegmu]

I currently work in thermoplastics. I smoked for 20 years. The last thing I need is to dodge the bullet from smoking or breathing in what I do at work, only to get sick from vaping known dangerous substances...

 

[ddkl7780]

If I buy from one of my local shops I get a 30ml 18 mg nic.I then cut one bottle into 4 with vg. Ive talked with the owner about diacetyl he assures there is none in their juices. Theres always the fact he is told by his supplier there isnt any and there could be. I dont need a lot of flavor taking it I reduce it anyway and is ok for me. Even unflavored doesnt bother me. I figure whatever they have in the juice Im reducing it to 25% each bottle so maybe thats helpful to reduce risks...maybe its not who knows. Ive come to like the light flavor though.

 

[ST Dog]

known dangerous substances...

Given all the dangers in life, interesting that some compound in liquid that "may" be dangerous bothers so many.

Water is a "known dangerous substance." So is oxygen.
Both are required for life too.

These compounds have unknown exposure limits. The current numbers are just guesses. We don't know the needed exposure and the time required for it to be an issue.

If it was as bad as being made out by some, then every worker in microwave popcorn factories would have the disease.
They don't, even among that group it's rare. (I'm not convinced, that Mr. Watson's disease was caused buy the popcorn. They just convinced a jury that it was. Jury verdicts are not science)

I've yet to see studies on exposure level over specific periods that give any indication of how dangerous it is.

Then follow that with info on the exposure from e-liquids with specific concentrations.

Maybe if you vape 10mL a day it's an issue, but is 2-3mL/day?
And if you change flavors, is 3mL a day, twice a week as bad as 1mL per day every day?


Just a lot of questions that are unanswered. While caution may be prudent, I see a lot of over reacting.
And once the scare tactics get used, it's nearly impossible to reverse the effects.

So in 5 years when they have better numbers and find that the quantity used in e-liquids if "safe" for at 3mL/day, is anyone going to use it again? Or will the stigma given now last forever?

History tells me that it'll last forever. (see DDT and CFC)

 

[Racehorse]

Given all the dangers in life, interesting that some compound in liquid that "may" be dangerous bothers so many.

I believe that its all cumulative.

Sun damage to skin is perfect example ...... it shows up 20+ years later. I know. I've dropped a load getting little things cut out.

Water is a "known dangerous substance." So is oxygen.
Both are required for life too.

No offense but that is such "bad science".

Why not drink water with higher than normal levels of arsenic in it, or load up on fish containing high levels of mercury on a daily basis?

We are vaping every day. Not 2x a week.

Not knocking you for choosing to do as you feel and want, just pointing out the holes in argument.......and I"m sure there are some in mine as well.

Just a lot of questions that are unanswered. While caution may be prudent, I see a lot of over reacting.
And once the scare tactics get used, it's nearly impossible to reverse the effects.

Funny you should mention this. Yet, I see quite a lot of scare tactics being used which is causing people to stockpile vape related stuff, and spend a lot of $$........despite that many questions about the future of vaping is also a lot of unanswered questions.

At certain times when there are a lot of posts about it, here and on other forums, I can't even buy supplies because there's been a *run* on them. (I seem to remember how banks failed in the olden days, panic....)

 

[stevegmu]

Given all the dangers in life, interesting that some compound in liquid that "may" be dangerous bothers so many.

Water is a "known dangerous substance." So is oxygen.
Both are required for life too.

These compounds have unknown exposure limits. The current numbers are just guesses. We don't know the needed exposure and the time required for it to be an issue.

If it was as bad as being made out by some, then every worker in microwave popcorn factories would have the disease.
They don't, even among that group it's rare. (I'm not convinced, that Mr. Watson's disease was caused buy the popcorn. They just convinced a jury that it was. Jury verdicts are not science)

I've yet to see studies on exposure level over specific periods that give any indication of how dangerous it is.

Then follow that with info on the exposure from e-liquids with specific concentrations.

Maybe if you vape 10mL a day it's an issue, but is 2-3mL/day?
And if you change flavors, is 3mL a day, twice a week as bad as 1mL per day every day?


Just a lot of questions that are unanswered. While caution may be prudent, I see a lot of over reacting.
And once the scare tactics get used, it's nearly impossible to reverse the effects.

So in 5 years when they have better numbers and find that the quantity used in e-liquids if "safe" for at 3mL/day, is anyone going to use it again? Or will the stigma given now last forever?

History tells me that it'll last forever. (see DDT and CFC)

I really don't understand the rationale for exposing one's self to unnecessary risk, but to each their own...

 

[ST Dog]

I believe that its all cumulative.

Sun damage to skin is perfect example ...... it shows up 20+ years later. I know. I've dropped a load getting little things cut out.

Certainly, and we really have little info on just what it takes to be a problem or when it'll show up.

Just like with the sun, we need some to be healthy. And full body tanning all summer long isn't good.
But that doesn't mean you have to coat your self with chemical screens constantly, or stay indoors as much as possible.

No offense but that is such "bad science".

Why not drink water with higher than normal levels of arsenic in it, or load up on fish containing high levels of mercury on a daily basis?

We are vaping every day. Not 2x a week.

Define "normal levels" though. Do we even know anymore? Were the natural levels altered before we started measuring?
I know that the water humans survived on for centuries has many toxins in it, but not high enough levels to be a concern.
But these days, an mention of a toxin is cause for overreaction.
But what I mean was consuming too much water is dangerous. Then there's the drowning issue.

Funny you should mention this. Yet, I see quite a lot of scare tactics being used which is causing people to stockpile vape related stuff, and spend a lot of $$........despite that many questions about the future of vaping is also a lot of unanswered questions.

I think they are wrong there too.


I see the same sort of stuff every time a tornado is forecast. Even well away from the coast, hurricanes cause it too.
Stores run out of stuff because every one is worried. So now I can't get the normal stuff I want.

 

[ST Dog]

I really don't understand the rationale for exposing one's self to unnecessary risk, but to each their own...

I like repelling too. It's fun. Certainly a unnecessary risk though.

 

[Racehorse]

I'm with you except on tornadoes, of course there isn't much warning on those. Google "mena arkansas tornado" -- "On April 9, 2009, a large and violent tornado devastated the town, killing three and injuring 30. The Arkansas National Guard was deployed to the affected area.The tornado was rated as a high-end EF3, with winds near 165 mph and damages estimated at $25 million."

My small town was wiped out by this tornado, and there is no way to describe how *different* it is than seeing stuff on TV or in photos. You are totally dis-oriented, standing in places you can't even recognize anymore.

I am still scared and traumatized 5 years later.

 

[rurwin]

Since this is still on-going, you might like to see this spreadsheet I wrote. There was some discussion in a previous thread about how the NIOSH safety levels were applied to e-cigs. I've spent my $38 on the report and I now know how this is done. The spreadsheet should explain it.

One factor that we didn't understand is that conversion between ppm and ug/ml requires a conversion factor that depends on the substance.

It also makes clear just how ineffective the 0.05% sensitivity tests are, and that includes the ECITA tests.

The PDF gives the figures if you don't want to expose yourself to unknown xls files but, of course, you won't be able to see the formulea. If anyone knows of a macro-free file format for spreadsheets that Office can open, let me know; gnumeric would probably work but nobody could open it.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96640124/diacetyl.xls
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96640124/diacetyl.pdf

There is no list of eliquid manufacturers in the paper.

 

[ST Dog]

I'm with you except on tornadoes, of course there isn't much warning on those.

I am still scared and traumatized 5 years later.

But do you run to the store and stock up on staple goods every time they forecast tornadoes?
Fill up all the gas cans you can find for the generator?

A few here do, though not as many as in 2012. April 2011 an F5 knocked out power for several days in a lot of this area.
The rest of that year and a lot of 2012, any forecast of possible tornadoes meant the grocery store shelves were out of bread.

 

[ST Dog]

One factor that we didn't understand is that conversion between ppm and ug/ml requires a conversion factor that depends on the substance.

Cool. More reading now.

As for a spreadsheet format, maybe OpenOffice? There's a plugin to add support to Microsoft products.
Or Google docs (though other issues with that, like corporate blocks)