FDA Game changer? - "Relax ... it's a ___ NJOY!" (NJOY to make a non-cigAlike/advanced system with a tank?)

[aikanae1]

duplicate .......

 

[aikanae1]

Oh yea - I forgot about that. The "free ecig" offers that automatically entered the person into a crazy expensive subscription that was near impossible to cancel (used PO Boxes to avoid certified, registered mail) and carried boarderline illegal interest and default charges - that were sent to collections on the 32nd day, which also usually was owned by the same parent company.

But I think my most important point is that "cigalikes" has become a generically used term that has a political connotation of the differences between tobacco corporations vs independent vaping industry. It is not meant to be taken personally about which devices someone uses to find success.

The eroll might be considered a cigalike but I wouldn't put it in with the tobacco companies. Instead it is a device that is higher quality and from what I've heard, very impressive.

I don't think anyone here wants to discount anyone who has had success quitting smoking.

 

[Kent C]

Oh yea - I forgot about that. The "free ecig" offers that automatically entered the person into a crazy expensive subscription that was near impossible to cancel (used PO Boxes to avoid certified, registered mail) and carried boarderline illegal interest and default charges - that were sent to collections on the 32nd day, which also usually was owned by the same parent company.

But I think my most important point is that "cigalikes" has become a generically used term that has a political connotation of the differences between tobacco corporations vs independent vaping industry. It is not meant to be taken personally about which devices someone uses to find success.

The eroll might be considered a cigalike but I wouldn't put it in with the tobacco companies. Instead it is a device that is higher quality and from what I've heard, very impressive.

I don't think anyone here wants to discount anyone who has had success quitting smoking.

1st para - Exactly - we have proof here. Most now wouldn't believe it.

Rest... I agree.

 

[Jman8]

I think my most important point is that "cigalikes" has become a generically used term that has a political connotation of the differences between tobacco corporations vs independent vaping industry. It is not meant to be taken personally about which devices someone uses to find success.

The eroll might be considered a cigalike but I wouldn't put it in with the tobacco companies. Instead it is a device that is higher quality and from what I've heard, very impressive.

I don't think anyone here wants to discount anyone who has had success quitting smoking.

What would you say about V2's product (devices)? Clearly not BT, but pretty clear that they are BV.

From what I understand, they are clearly cigalikes, but not the same as disposable kind, and with clearo on top, they are similar to bigger devices, only not as good (in many cases).

Even with those users who only know about eCigs as the disposable kind, I think of us all in one big (semi-happy) family, and that we are all vapers. Some just happen to be further along on the geek-scale than others, and enjoying all the benefits that come from being further along.

 

[aikanae1]

What would you say about V2's product (devices)? Clearly not BT, but pretty clear that they are BV.

From what I understand, they are clearly cigalikes, but not the same as disposable kind, and with clearo on top, they are similar to bigger devices, only not as good (in many cases).

Even with those users who only know about eCigs as the disposable kind, I think of us all in one big (semi-happy) family, and that we are all vapers. Some just happen to be further along on the geek-scale than others, and enjoying all the benefits that come from being further along.

I'm using the term cigalikes in a very generic way, and one that doesn't describe the actual product as much as it describes their role in the vaping industry.

From what I know about V2 is they seem allied with tobacco and TVECA so I tend to include them with the generic term of "cigalikes" whether they use a ce4 or not since that's unrelated to their intentions, motivation and interests for the future of vaping.

BV to my knowledge is a term coined by Herzog, a Wells Fargo Investment Advisor. What she means by BV isn't 100% clear to me and I think it's a little early to put words in her mouth or assume she recognizes the independent vaping community. She seems to be one of the first, however, to include sales from small vape shops - so that's hope. But based on other comments (including Godshall) she does not have the information to estimate the size of the vaping community (incl. imports from China, coops buys and alternative methods that vapors use to buy products). The vaping industry doesn't even have those figures.

I think Njoy's jump to a refillable (ce4) is a bit premature to call them BV or entittle them to lead the way / become a spokesperson for the rest of the vaping community (Provari, MBV, Vape Rev, Totally Wicked, 5 Pawns, Halo, MOV, MadVapes, DV, etc).

I tend to be a little resistant to allow naming rights to those that are not in the industry; ENDS, VTM, BV. I'd rather see "US" adopt our own terms, right or wrong (ecigs). I kinda like pv's.

What's in a name? Quite a bit actually. A number of the major players would like to see us disappear and one way to do that would be to rename us and say "were all in this together". BS!!!

For the last 2 years + all the focus has been little plastic cigalikes as if we didn't exist. Now they are beginning to admit "those tank systems exist and are more effective". So, rename and own us as if we are the same as them. That's wrong IMO when they (tobacco and TVECA) have done nothing to help develop the community and have done what they can to ignore us. I have quotes.

We need to be who we are. Many of these local bans are saying "we" are allied to tobacco as their primary justification for the ban. That's justification for high $ application fees to FDA and taxes and suspicion. I can't think of a single reason why the vaping community would want to be associated with tobacco companies that would do us any good. Sometimes our interests are the same, sometimes. That's not a reason to be co-opted and disappear by using their labels and brand names as if we don't exist.

"We", meaning the independent vapers, built this community, did the research and development with few goals other than assisting smokers to help quit as effectively as possible and did it without the help of capital financing, without payment processing, without help from major interests such as trade associations, tobacco industry, medical community and more often than not, did it IN SPITE of their obsticals, hurdles, short sightedness, ignorance, arrogance and blindness. We should be proud. I think that's proof that "they can't do it better" and more times than not, our interests are not the same. For the most part, we'd be sold down the river to the highest bidder in the name of "the investor".

That's not the case with the independent vaping community. There's been a number of people who could have sold ideas and designs for proffit, but instead released them to the community at large for others to expand on and develop so that everyone can benefit. The primary goal has been to assist people in their desires to be an ex-smoker and that's the glue that binds us. ECF is just one example.

I don't know about you, but most the vape shops in my/ area are highly motivated not by the paycheck they bring home (but that helps) but to help every customer get what they need for a successful experience enabling them to eliminate smoking to the extent they want to. That's a goal I don't think tobacco, TVECA, FDA, CDC have in common with the vaping community and until I see signs they do, then I'm not going to say "we are one big happy family" because I would see their primary motivations and interests at odds with ours, the idependent vaping community.

FDA's / CDC's convoluted "public health standard" is another example where they'd sell the smoker/ex-smoker down the river to keep the status quo and balance of power, "for the chiiilldreen". I'm not willing to disappear.

Ha-ha. That sounds almost like a little manifesto-rant. Sorry.

 

[Jman8]

I'm using the term cigalikes in a very generic way, and one that doesn't describe the actual product as much as it describes their role in the vaping industry.

From what I know about V2 is they seem allied with tobacco and TVECA so I tend to include them with the generic term of "cigalikes" whether they use a ce4 or not since that's unrelated to their intentions, motivation and interests for the future of vaping.

BV to my knowledge is a term coined by Herzog, a Wells Fargo Investment Advisor.

First, I don't see Herzog as coining that term. I was using it before I ever heard of her. She may be first big name to use it, but that would just be BN commenting on BV.

Second, if cigalike isn't a device but a 'role in the industry,' then BV absolutely exists, and will continue to exist. You could remove all cigalike makers and BV would exist.

Third, I've never heard anyone, until today say cigalike is a role and not so much a device in the industry. Not sure what to say in response to that sort of assertion, but seems to make bias against cigalikes and all the snootiness that comes with that a little bit more pertinent.

Sorry, just how I see that.

 

[tombaker]

So Herzog, does not have the skills or access to information to understand that the E-Cig industry is. Too funny.

E-Cigs=Vaping Cigalikes=E-Cigs AP+V=Vaping.....all the stuff about what old technology people used 3 years ago compared to what was used and bought last month at V2 or Blu or whoever.....its ALL VAPING. The differences you say between products are not huge.

Put on a mini clearomzer on top of a 4.2V 808D before you think what you used years back is just like today. And EGO twist with a IClear16 is not very different at all.....and when the battery runs out on a 808D, you reach into your pocket and put out the other one, and you Vape Onwards....they are not large.

And yes, Herzog has a direct access into the BLU, you can listen to the conference call. She has excellent information. Vaping is Vaping, and the regulations will reflect that.....its E-Liquid, that is the Tobacco Product.

I'm using the term cigalikes in a very generic way, and one that doesn't describe the actual product as much as it describes their role in the vaping industry.

From what I know about V2 is they seem allied with tobacco and TVECA so I tend to include them with the generic term of "cigalikes" whether they use a ce4 or not since that's unrelated to their intentions, motivation and interests for the future of vaping.

BV to my knowledge is a term coined by Herzog, a Wells Fargo Investment Advisor. What she means by BV isn't 100% clear to me and I think it's a little early to put words in her mouth or assume she recognizes the independent vaping community. She seems to be one of the first, however, to include sales from small vape shops - so that's hope. But based on other comments (including Godshall) she does not have the information to estimate the size of the vaping community (incl. imports from China, coops buys and alternative methods that vapors use to buy products). The vaping industry doesn't even have those figures.

I think Njoy's jump to a refillable (ce4) is a bit premature to call them BV or entittle them to lead the way / become a spokesperson for the rest of the vaping community (Provari, MBV, Vape Rev, Totally Wicked, 5 Pawns, Halo, MOV, MadVapes, DV, etc).

I tend to be a little resistant to allow naming rights to those that are not in the industry; ENDS, VTM, BV. I'd rather see "US" adopt our own terms, right or wrong (ecigs). I kinda like pv's.

What's in a name? Quite a bit actually. A number of the major players would like to see us disappear and one way to do that would be to rename us and say "were all in this together". BS!!!

For the last 2 years + all the focus has been little plastic cigalikes as if we didn't exist. Now they are beginning to admit "those tank systems exist and are more effective". So, rename and own us as if we are the same as them. That's wrong IMO when they (tobacco and TVECA) have done nothing to help develop the community and have done what they can to ignore us. I have quotes.

We need to be who we are. Many of these local bans are saying "we" are allied to tobacco as their primary justification for the ban. That's justification for high $ application fees to FDA and taxes and suspicion. I can't think of a single reason why the vaping community would want to be associated with tobacco companies that would do us any good. Sometimes our interests are the same, sometimes. That's not a reason to be co-opted and disappear by using their labels and brand names as if we don't exist.

"We", meaning the independent vapers, built this community, did the research and development with few goals other than assisting smokers to help quit as effectively as possible and did it without the help of capital financing, without payment processing, without help from major interests such as trade associations, tobacco industry, medical community and more often than not, did it IN SPITE of their obsticals, hurdles, short sightedness, ignorance, arrogance and blindness. We should be proud. I think that's proof that "they can't do it better" and more times than not, our interests are not the same. For the most part, we'd be sold down the river to the highest bidder in the name of "the investor".

That's not the case with the independent vaping community. There's been a number of people who could have sold ideas and designs for proffit, but instead released them to the community at large for others to expand on and develop so that everyone can benefit. The primary goal has been to assist people in their desires to be an ex-smoker and that's the glue that binds us. ECF is just one example.

I don't know about you, but most the vape shops in my/ area are highly motivated not by the paycheck they bring home (but that helps) but to help every customer get what they need for a successful experience enabling them to eliminate smoking to the extent they want to. That's a goal I don't think tobacco, TVECA, FDA, CDC have in common with the vaping community and until I see signs they do, then I'm not going to say "we are one big happy family" because I would see their primary motivations and interests at odds with ours, the idependent vaping community.

FDA's / CDC's convoluted "public health standard" is another example where they'd sell the smoker/ex-smoker down the river to keep the status quo and balance of power, "for the chiiilldreen". I'm not willing to disappear.

Ha-ha. That sounds almost like a little manifesto-rant. Sorry.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

BV has come to ECF. (In the sense of being a recognized acronym.)

 

[Bob Chill]

I'm not sure why the disco between cigalike and tanks is getting so heated. Cigalikes work indefinitely for some but not all. Cigalikes were the birth of the industry but sticks and tanks and mods are responsible for the rapid growth. The industry clearly needs both to be successful and to continue growing at the pace it is now.

However, the tank side is under perceived threat and this is a big problem if the threat is realized. I'm not sure the comparison to over clocked computers and such works here. A simple stick and tank is simple to operate and solves 2 problems: Battery life and capacity. Anyone who can charge a battery and squeeze juice into a tank can operate one with ease.

IMO- if the industry was forced to choose one or the other then tanks get the nod for growth and success of the industry until cigalikes improve for the masses.

I'm not knocking cigalikes because they play a huge role. Heck, i still break out my SI volt from time to time. But there is a distinct difference and shortcomings compared to even a simple twist/evod. This is my opinion only and I'm not speaking for everyone.

I commend Njoy for recognizing the need to add a higher capacity delivery system that is refillable to their lineup. They are now officially a big name ally to something many of us hold dear.

 

[sonicdsl]

I'm not sure why the disco between cigalike and tanks is getting so heated. Cigalikes work indefinitely for some but not all. Cigalikes were the birth of the industry but sticks and tanks and mods are responsible for the rapid growth. The industry clearly needs both to be successful and to continue growing at the pace it is now.

However, the tank side is under perceived threat and this is a big problem if the threat is realized. I'm not sure the comparison to over clocked computers and such works here. A simple stick and tank is simple to operate and solves 2 problems: Battery life and capacity. Anyone who can charge a battery and squeeze juice into a tank can operate one with ease.

IMO- if the industry was forced to choose one or the other then tanks get the nod for growth and success of the industry until cigalikes improve for the masses.

I'm not knocking cigalikes because they play a huge role. Heck, i still break out my SI volt from time to time. But there is a distinct difference and shortcomings compared to even a simple twist/evod. This is my opinion only and I'm not speaking for everyone.

I commend Njoy for recognizing the need to add a higher capacity delivery system that is refillable to their lineup. They are now officially a big name ally to something many of us hold dear.

Options/choices are always a good thing, IMO.

 

[Bob Chill]

Options/choices are always a good thing, IMO.

Without question. And taking options and choices away is always a bad thing. Like most on here I own everything from a cigalike to a twist/evod to some vv/vw mods to mech and some rba's. It pains me to think there is a potential target on some of the things I own and love.

 

[aikanae1]

First, I don't see Herzog as coining that term. I was using it before I ever heard of her. She may be first big name to use it, but that would just be BN commenting on BV.

Second, if cigalike isn't a device but a 'role in the industry,' then BV absolutely exists, and will continue to exist. You could remove all cigalike makers and BV would exist.

Third, I've never heard anyone, until today say cigalike is a role and not so much a device in the industry. Not sure what to say in response to that sort of assertion, but seems to make bias against cigalikes and all the snootiness that comes with that a little bit more pertinent.

Sorry, just how I see that.

I never said I was an expert. This started because I have OBSERVED myself (and others) using the term "cigalikes" symbolically to identify specfic actors and not as identifying the device. They do have an association with BT/TVECA. I pointed out this dual use of the term as a way to NOT discount cigalike devices.

As far as "naming" rights? Yes I've seen this done across many spectrums in business. When something comes along that upsets the status quo - the legacy companies (corporations) will take the term and morph it into something else or rebrand the 'rebel' which has the effect of making them disappear.

So I guess this is a crossroads for vaping. Are we going to become one with big tobacco and all their plans and deeds or stand independent? I, personally, don't like being associated with BT and one of the reasons why I love vaping is that it's symbolized my freedom from THEM. There's a good chance if vaping is morphed into BT, then a lot of my passion for being independent will be lost too. Yes, I view BT as an evil like the FDA and have a hard time distinguishing between the two.

Herzog tends to speak for industry.

Obviously, you have a different perception.

 

[aikanae1]

Without question. And taking options and choices away is always a bad thing. Like most on here I own everything from a cigalike to a twist/evod to some vv/vw mods to mech and some rba's. It pains me to think there is a potential target on some of the things I own and love.

This is what I was trying to clarify. There seems to be a dual use of the term cigalikes and for the most part, it is not always trying to identify a specific device.

 

[aikanae1]

BV has come to ECF. (In the sense of being a recognized acronym.)

I think the term is vague.

 

[sonicdsl]

I think the term is vague.

Hover your mouse over BV, and you'll get a full description.

 

[Kent C]

Hover your mouse over BV, and you'll get a full description.

That's rather vague too and false imo. Their praise of regulation could be Stockholm Syndrome. If it's truly "strict", they'd be against it. IOW BV=BT - it's a distinction without a distinction.

B is also a liberal idea that attempts to avoid the B that is truly in charge - BG - the one they love

 

[Bobbilly]

That's rather vague too and false imo. Their praise of regulation could be Stockholm Syndrome. If it's truly "strict", they'd be against it. IOW BV=BT - it's a distinction without a distinction.

B is also a liberal idea that attempts to avoid the B that is truly in charge - BG - the one they love

I see BV as only a large vaper company. NJoy is vape only no?

BT includes their e cig business as it is an extension of their tobacco market.

 

[tombaker]

I think the term is vague.

Totally agree RE: BV as vague.
Vaping is Vaping, its the same E-Liquid, which is all that the FDA can control. Without nicotine (from Tobacco) E-Liquid, there is no standing for the FDA.

We are in the E-Cig forum....E-Cigs are Cig-alikes, and there is a varient called MOD, which some people think is APV, but APV seeming includes things like a bigger battery and a bigger clearomizer than an E-Cig, which all exist on Cig-A-likes such as an 808D with a Phoenix (CE3)bottom coil tank cartomizer. The Phoenix are also used on top of EGOs the 510 side.

So BV is concerned about size of the Battery, because small batteries are E-Cigs.

So yeah its very clear that some people thing big batteries makes all the difference, small batteries are BV, large are are SV. Oh and of course the political opinion trump size in the definition of BV.

Vague is too generous.

 

[Jman8]

So I guess this is a crossroads for vaping. Are we going to become one with big tobacco and all their plans and deeds or stand independent? I, personally, don't like being associated with BT and one of the reasons why I love vaping is that it's symbolized my freedom from THEM. There's a good chance if vaping is morphed into BT, then a lot of my passion for being independent will be lost too. Yes, I view BT as an evil like the FDA and have a hard time distinguishing between the two.

I don't see vaping ever becoming one (and the same) as BT, though possibly could if BT changes to BN. For now, they make a product that many (millions) of vapers despise. Even if all other vaping gear was magically regulated out of existence (in some fairytale world), these same people would not suddenly like BT and BT's vaping gear. Some might, most would not. In that hypothetical world, I believe all despisers would quit vaping cold turkey and live happily ever after.

But BT is a very large industry within American economy and because they 'know nicotine,' they have reason to be in the vaping industry. Good reason. I can somewhat understand that if you are in place of 'hating BT and everything they stand for' that you'd carry that over to hating all their BV products, just cause of how prejudice works. Or I can (more) understand how after trying really nice independent vaping gear and then trying/comparing that to BT vaping gear, you'd conclude that BT deserves no respect in terms of quality with their available resources.

But challenging to understand how BT is inherently evil as if that is not strictly biased opinion. Challenging to understand how you don't think 'big money' will be beneficial to all the businesses that, collectively, are growing into tens of millions of users. It is fascinating to me that BT is hated more for their role in the industry than the thieves who steal and distribute clones. Clones aren't 'independent do-gooders.' I realize that's debatable, but I bring it up, cause there are a bunch of things in the unregulated market that exists to date whereby lots of players of all sorts of sizes and creeds can be involved and really is up to the buyer, and not anything else.

I truly believe having BT in vaping industry offers them a sense of redemption, especially with where vaping could go / is predicted to go. For sure, it offers them another opportunity to manipulate product, deceive customers and bribe politicians/scientists to agree that there way is good for everyone, but I truly think BT learned that lesson, and is still getting beaten up daily (in an over zealous way) by so many resources, that it would literally be suicidal to think it might just work the next time if they try it again.

I think any business sitting down with regulators for more than 2 minutes, is going to present regulators with their version of 'reasonable regulations.' Both BT and BV have done this, and thus far based on proposed regulations, it appears to screw the little guy. At same time, if it was little guy (with legitimate shop) and me making product in my bathtub, and we were both at a local town hall meeting deciding on the future of distribution in the community, I'm thinking this 'little guy' would screw me left and right based on my methods which don't match their fancy schmancy ways of doing business. Even while I am outselling them before regulations go into place. Even while my service is actually better. Nature of the game when money and politics is involved. Why do we have a thread about "where is the outcry from vendors" and another thread with CASAA member taking time to squarely address all vendors, if these independent vendors are soooo wonderful for the vaping community? Fact is, we have some vendors that are dedicated to long term distribution, some that provide excellent customer service, and many others that realize this industry is selling a hot commodity and with a little business sense, a profit can surely be made.

To think all of little V is wonderful and helpful, while all of big V is evil and greedy, I find is out of touch with reality. Said it before and will say it again, you could remove all of current players that are Big V from the industry, and new players would quickly emerge as BV. All that is disdainful about BT/BV would be found in those same companies. Many of which are squarely little V right now, and are arguably being of enormous help to the cause.

Nature of the beast.

 

[Kent C]

I see BV as only a large vaper company. NJoy is vape only no?

BT includes their e cig business as it is an extension of their tobacco market.

Njoy is currently vape only but it has been a takeover target for a few years now. Still you're point only confirms the vagueness. Include BT's ecig departments? or just NJoy - if only NJoy, why not say "NJoy".