Harvard Eliquid Study Today

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DeAnna2112

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I agree that one is getting different amounts of diketones through various exposures, nonetheless, each still has some level of diketones in it and therefore you are still inhaling diketones...it's just a question of how much. Exposure to diketones through inhalation shows a decrease in lung function..how much exposure caused it is the question. Look at OP, vaped high diketone liquids for a year 10ml a day and now has problems such as catching his breath...reduced lung function.
I certainly do not want to continue inhaling that stuff on any level...but hey we all have different tolerances for risk.
 

VNeil

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@VNeil What do you make of this breakdown of comparative exposures? I have seen conflicting
figures from different sources.

Everybody is talking about vaping and "popcorn lung" again, so here's a graph
Regards
Mike
I already gave you my take on that, in my 50 Ton Elephant discussion. In order for me to believe that diacetyl is the causative agent of the pocorn worker's ailments, AND to believe it is relevant to vaping, I need a very clear explanation of why smokers were immune to this, or where my logic and reasoning is flawed- specifically why the timelines vary.

I believe the graph he currently displays is correct (within reason), and his estimate of diacetyl in the popcorn factories (assuming the 0.2ppm level the studies suggest) is very reasonable now that he is using ambient air densities in his calculation. And although I do not agree with the specific numbers he used to compute the volume of air respired by the workers, his final number (8L/minute) agrees precisely with at least one study I found so I won't quibble with how he got there :)

(My quibble is his 960 breaths per hour, which works out to 15 per minute, or once every 4 seconds, which is a rate that is near hypernentilating. But since he arrives at 8L/min I'm happy :toast:)

Other than that I'm not sure what you are asking for.

As an aside, I too would like to see you link to a study or other credible source that suggests the diacetyl used in the popcorn factories were in solid, powdered form. This is a question I had, when reading the studies and I think we need to stop this endless debate between you and @Rossum, one way or the other. If it was, in fact, in powdered form, or somehow "coated" on solid particles in the air, in some manner that is comparable to "powdered form", I think that is a critical point because as you suggest, that is very different than a liquid compound well mixed in our vapor, or perhaps within cig smoke (??? another area of research). I think your silicate example is very appropriate.
 

sparkky1

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@ DeAnna2112, that is simply not true. No tests have actually demonstrated actual lung damage from diacetyls. Some studies have suggested a correlation, specifically in industrial mixing environments, mainly those popcorn mixing stations. The studies have found correlation, nothing more. There is far more than correlation to science. Although correlation is more than good enough for propaganda purposes.

If you want to insist that all inhalation of diacetyl is the same then you have to explain this 50 Ton Elephant in the Diacetyl Room....

The average exposure of the affected popcorn workers was 0.2 ppm, which works out to about 2700 micrograms per day of exposure, and that is only 5 days a week (presumably), and maybe 50 weeks a year. Or 250/365 = 68% of a full time exposure.

The average amount of diacetyl released in a single cigarette is about 330 micrograms, which works out to around 6700 micrograms per day. That is around 2.5x the daily exposure that the popcorn workers received, and it is typically 7 days per week, 52 weeks a year (most don't take an annual week or two or three vacation from smoking). For a 2 PAD smoker, that is 5x the exposure. Factoring in true annual exposure would raise that by a third or so.

In the popcorn worker cases studied, full blown BO, requiring lung transplants for continued survival, occurred within 10 years. Significant lung impairment was found in workers after only 2 years.

If you want to insist that all diacetyl inhalation is the same, you have to explain why significant smoker related lung disease takes 30-40 years to develop, at 2-5x the diacetyl exposure or more, when popcorn workers got it in less than 10 years. How many cases of "advanced COPD" do you hear about in 10 year smokers? Where are the legions of 20-something year olds with advanced COPD?

Some like to argue that BO is some silent epidemic, that millions of smokers have died over the years with advanced COPD (with death often for other reasons like stroke or heart attack) ETA: that was really BO in disguise, but not one of these lungs was autopsied. How many pictures have you seen of "smoker's black lungs" taken from cadavers? Do you believe none of these lungs were cut open to determine the nature of the lung impairment?

Even if you want to believe that fiction, you have to explain the timeline discrepancy.

There is so much more to the diacetyl story. Unfortunately it is unlikely that gov't will take much interest in studying that 50 ton elephant. After all, gov't has bought and paid for "research" it can use to declare vaping "extremely hazardous to your health", justifying any and all controls, bans, and most importantly, taxation. No need to look any further when the goal is taxation and control, not a search for the truth.

But that does not mean we need to buy that line. Please apply some critical thinking to your argument.
I agree that one is getting different amounts of diketones through various exposures, nonetheless, each still has some level of diketones in it and therefore you are still inhaling diketones...it's just a question of how much. Exposure to diketones through inhalation shows a decrease in lung function..how much exposure caused it is the question. Look at OP, vaped high diketone liquids for a year 10ml a day and now has problems such as catching his breath...reduced lung function.
I certainly do not want to continue inhaling that stuff on any level...but hey we all have different tolerances for risk.

The "op" has reduced lung function ?
 

VNeil

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Is an exposure of xxxx micrograms per day the same no matter whether it comes from smoking, vaping, or ambient air? I don't think so.

Put someone in a room with a certain concentration of stuff in the ambient air. After a while, the concentration of stuff in the deepest recesses of their lungs will have equalized with the ambient air, and the exposure to that concentration in the deepest recesses of their lungs is then continuous for however long they remain in that room.

Most smokers do not draw smoke very deeply into their lungs. I certainly didn't (at least not since college and that smoke wasn't tobacco). They expel most of the smoke they inhale, whereupon it becomes diluted in ambient air. The same is true for MTL vapers. The DL cloud-chasing vapers are a different breed. They do draw vapor down into the deepest recesses of their lungs..

Then then there's the question of form/state the stuff is in. It it in gaseous form? Is it attached to small solid particulates? Is it suspended in an aerosol composed of liquid droplets? How does that affect the effects? We simply don't know.

But that doesn't change the fact that this study and the headlines it generated are obvious hyperbole and clearly part of a propaganda campaign. It's like studying drinking water, finding some detectable level of arsenic in much of it, and then generating all sort of headlines implying that drinking water is unsafe.

What I don't understand is vapers who make excuses for those vendors in the industry who continue to sell products with high levels of diketones in them, without disclosing that fact, or who've gone as far as hiding that fact and outright lying to their customers.
@Rossum, I'm not sure if you are disputing me or @DeAnna2112. I merely pointed out that her assertion cannot be correct. It is impossible. I agree with you that not all diacetyl exposure may be the same, but in order for me to be convinced it is an evil in vaping, someone has to explain my 50 Ton Elephant problem. I find it impossible to assume that diacetyl is somehow different than smoking, in a more malignant way, but somehow identical to diacetyl in the popcorn factory. It just simply does not compute. Without some serious science explaining that magical needle that would have been threaded.

Personally I think the 50 Ton Elephant argument suggests that the popcorn factory studies picked the wrong causative agent. I always go with Occam's Razor, without a specific reason otherwise, and here Occam says Diacetyl is the wrong villain. There is simply too much diacetyl in cig smoke and that is one of the few Ultimate Truths we might have here.

"Most smokers do not draw smoke very deeply into their lungs"

Once more, you confuse your beliefs or, in this case, your personal practice, with the rest of the world, and what they believe or practice. I deeply inhaled my cigs to the greatest extent I could. I do the same vaping, by the way. Once more, you are free to voice your own practices, experiences and beliefs for what they are- personal, but when you try to suggest yours represent the world at large you will be called out on it. And we cannot have an intelligent conversation until you are willing to do so.

Aside from how you frame things, in the above you are merely speculating. The fact is that there are no FACTS to resolve my 50 Ton Elephant problem, only speculation (such as yours) to lead to a desired conclusion. This is no different than ANTZ propaganda that replaces facts with speculation of what might happen, what we don't (and will never) know for sure, and etc. Regardless of your personal views on all this, I won't engage in wars of speculation. I will only point out facts and interpret them as best I can.
 
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beckdg

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...it's just a question of how much.

Again

Wrong

This is exposure to a biological entity

We only BEGIN to make INEPT, INCOMPLETE understanding by answering AT MINIMUM...

How
How much
How often

This goes for EVERY EXPOSURE and MUST be considered in COMPLETE detail

Water
Oxygen
Pathogens
Industrial chemicals
Medicine
Household cleaners
Radiation
Nuclear fallout

Doesn't matter

Same rules apply

Tapatyped
 

VNeil

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I agree that one is getting different amounts of diketones through various exposures, nonetheless, each still has some level of diketones in it and therefore you are still inhaling diketones...it's just a question of how much. Exposure to diketones through inhalation shows a decrease in lung function..how much exposure caused it is the question. Look at OP, vaped high diketone liquids for a year 10ml a day and now has problems such as catching his breath...reduced lung function.
I certainly do not want to continue inhaling that stuff on any level...but hey we all have different tolerances for risk.
You are speculating to reinforce a personal belief. Unless you can prove, with facts, that all diketones do result in decreased lung function. If you can prove that you have some evidence no one else has seen. You are also totally confusing your threads since the OP here has given us no indication of reduced lung function, he merely linked to a study. ibid Sparkky1 :)
 

sparkky1

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You are speculating to reinforce a personal belief. Unless you can prove, with facts, that all diketones do result in decreased lung function. If you can prove that you have some evidence no one else has seen. You are also totally confusing your threads since the OP here has given us no indication of reduced lung function, he merely linked to a study. ibid Sparkky1 :)

I think she's talking about the Metropolitan level 1 trauma team fictional findings ...............
 

skoony

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You keep saying that. One problem with that: Diacetyl is a liquid.
You keep saying its liquid. The stuff we get for juice is suspended in either PG or an alcohol. It blends
better that way as we are not cooking juice. The diacetly the workers used was in powdered form.
"In the 1990’s, factory workers in a microwave popcorn plant contracted bronchiolitis, also known as ‘popcorn lung’. It was generally believed that this was the result of inhaling a powdered form of diacetyl, in very high concentrations, which is used in the butter flavoring for the popcorn." - See more at: The Truth About Diacetyl - Mt Baker Vapor
Depending on costs its generally cheaper to use dry goods as they are cheaper to package and transport.
Any dry fine particulate matter is hazardous when used in large quantities is large industrial/commercial
settings. Its not what it is, it's what it does under when certain environmental conditions are present.
I worked for three years mixing premixed ceiling and wall textures and paint. I am well aware of the
hazards the residual dust when using dry materials.
:2c:
Regards
Mike
Edit: i don't know the ingredients of this but,here ya go.
Organic Sugar Free Flavor Powder - Organic Sugar Free Flavor Powder made from the finest Organic and Natural ingredients. Order online today. - - Organic Butter Flavor Powder (Sugar Free, Calorie Free) - NF-4979/ORG | Natures Flavors | the finest Organic and Natural ingredients. Order online today.
 
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DeAnna2112

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You are speculating to reinforce a personal belief. Unless you can prove, with facts, that all diketones do result in decreased lung function. If you can prove that you have some evidence no one else has seen. You are also totally confusing your threads since the OP here has given us no indication of reduced lung function, he merely linked to a study. ibid Sparkky1 :)

OMG...Dr F sited a study that shows that reduced lung function has been demonstrated by those who inhale diketones. There you go, a test study sited by Dr. F in his research paper... what more proof do you need that reduced lung function has been demonstrated. Yes, i said OP but i meant a poster who later posted in this thread about having problems after vaping high diketones...i am sure everyone can figure out who i was referencing since that discussion made up a chunk of this thread discussion...clearly you missed that discussion apparently. I think it's also note worthy to take into account that all respiratory diseases have advancing stages so when we start seeing early symptoms, such as ones a poster stated they were experiencing earlier in this thread, that should be a red flag. Diketones can cause lung problems on various levels not just popcorn lung disease.
Geesh!!
 

DeAnna2112

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To the poster who posted about his health problems..... i am glad you did some research and found the link to your respiratory problems and stopped the use of diketones before it further deteriorated you lungs. Hopefully you and others who come on here sharing your story will bring awareness to others who are not aware of the potential risk and concerns raised regarding vaping diketones. I hope it's not too late to reverse the damage and wish you well moving forward as you heal. Hopefully your efforts will help to advance vaping in a positive direction where safety comes first before politics, and that vaping as a safer alternative continues to evolve and improve for all vapers, and not be hindered as it always does due to blinding agendas and politics on both sides.

 
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Douggro

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You keep saying its liquid. The stuff we get for juice is suspended in either PG or an alcohol. It blends better that way as we are not cooking juice. The diacetly the workers used was in powdered form.
Yes, I remember reading that they were dumping powdered diacetyl into mixing/cooking tanks along with the other ingredients for the butter flavoring. Seems that there's been an assumption that it was the vaporized diacetyl from heating the flavoring mix that caused their problems.
 

VNeil

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OMG...Dr F sited a study that shows that reduced lung function has been demonstrated by those who inhale diketones. There you go, a test study sited by Dr. F in his research paper... what more proof do you need that reduced lung function has been demonstrated. Yes, i said OP but i meant a poster who later posted in this thread about having problems after vaping high diketones...i am sure everyone can figure out who i was referencing since that discussion made up a chunk of this thread discussion...clearly you missed that discussion apparently. I think it's also note worthy to take into account that all respiratory diseases have advancing stages so when we start seeing early symptoms, such as ones a poster stated they were experiencing earlier in this thread, that should be a red flag. Diketones can cause lung problems on various levels not just popcorn lung disease.
Geesh!!
Dr F has never made the assertions you make, with the certainty you have. He calls it "an avoidable risk" without opining on the level of risk or any certainty the risk exists. That deals neatly with the unknowns and questions here. And as such his recommendation isn't "science" but more a philosophy of how to deal with the uncertainties. If I am misrepresenting what he said please provide specific links and quotes.
 
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Rossum

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You keep saying its liquid.
Melting point: −2 to −4 °C
Boiling point: 88 °C

The diacetly the workers used was in powdered form.
At temperatures in typical human work environments, it's a liquid, not a solid that can be made into a powder.

"In the 1990’s, factory workers in a microwave popcorn plant contracted bronchiolitis, also known as ‘popcorn lung’. It was generally believed that this was the result of inhaling a powdered form of diacetyl, in very high concentrations, which is used in the butter flavoring for the popcorn." - See more at: The Truth About Diacetyl - Mt Baker Vapor
Workers were handling powdered flavorings which included diacetyl as one of their components. That's not the same as handling "powdered diacetyl". The room they were working in would have had to be at deep freeze temperatures for that to be possible.

The reason I take issue with this is that your repeated use of the phrase "powdered diacetyl" implies certain things about the nature of the stuff they were exposed to that simply isn't true.
 
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skoony

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OMG...Dr F sited a study that shows that reduced lung function has been demonstrated by those who inhale diketones. There you go, a test study sited by Dr. F in his research paper..
The good Dr. F never conducted studies on the harm diketones did. He just noted he found them present
in the juice he tested. He was testing juice to find out what was in it not,what was harming anything.
Melting point: −2 to −4 °C
Boiling point: 88 °C


At temperatures in typical human work environments, it's a liquid, not a solid that can be made into a powder.

Please note,bolding not mine. ...?

Workers were handling powdered flavorings which included diacetyl as one of their components. That's not the same as handling "powdered diacetyl". The room they were working in would have had to be at deep freeze temperatures for that to be possible.

The reason I take issue with this is that your repeated use of the phrase "powdered diacetyl" implies certain things about the nature of the stuff they were exposed to that simply isn't true.
It was powdered diacetyl. I provided my link. Yours?
Yours? - Google Search
Lots of liquid flavorings in Kool-Aid you know.
Regards
mike
edit:
Emission of diacetyl (2,3 butanedione) from natural butter, microwave popcorn butter flavor powder, paste, and liquid products.
Emission of diacetyl (2,3 butanedione) from natural butter, microwave popcorn butter flavor powder, paste, and liquid products. - PubMed - NCBI
Edit: However, simulated handling of powder flavorings showed that a substantial amount of the airborne dust generated was of respirable size and could thus pose its own respiratory hazard.
Diacetyl emissions and airborne dust from butter flavorings used in microwave popcorn production. - PubMed - NCBI

please note,bolding not mine. ...?
 
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Rossum

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@Rossum, I'm not sure if you are disputing me or @DeAnna2112.
I'm not really disputing either of you, I'm raising points to think about, specifically variables that people seem to omit from consideration.

Personally I think the 50 Ton Elephant argument suggests that the popcorn factory studies picked the wrong causative agent.
Then maybe you could suggest a different one?

In order to test the theory that diacetyl was the causative agent, animal studies were done that confirmed that exposure to high levels diacetyl does rather ugly things to lung tissue. Yes, of course those studies used substantially higher concentrations, but there's little choice than to increase the concentration if you're not in a position to wait years for results. Is it possible that still led to false conclusions? Yes, it is. But right now, the best evidence is that there's some level of exposure to diacetyl that is hazardous to lung tissue. Do we know what that level is, or how often and for how long tissue must be exposed in order to manifest damage? No we don't. It probably also varies from individual to individual, just like the damage from smoking does.

"Most smokers do not draw smoke very deeply into their lungs"

Once more, you confuse your beliefs or, in this case, your personal practice, with the rest of the world, and what they believe or practice. I deeply inhaled my cigs to the greatest extent I could. I do the same vaping, by the way. Once more, you are free to voice your own practices, experiences and beliefs for what they are- personal, but when you try to suggest yours represent the world at large you will be called out on it. And we cannot have an intelligent conversation until you are willing to do so.
And you're doing exactly the same thing; confuse your beliefs or, in this case, your personal practice with that of "most people". Please go find some smokers and see how many of them do deep direct lung hits off their cigarettes in the manner than many "sub ohm" vape now. Smokers don't do that because it's essentially impossible; the draw on a cigarette is simply too tight to allow for it.

Aside from how you frame things, in the above you are merely speculating.
Yep, I'll admit there is a degree of speculation involved in all of this. I speculate that diketones are harmful in high concentrations, particularly to people who do deep lung hits, and you speculate the opposite. Now consider the consequences if either of us is wrong. If I'm wrong, I miss out on a few specific flavors and a certain mouth feel in my vape (which I never really cared for to begin with). If you're wrong, you may die as a result, and that would sully the reputation of vaping for the rest of us, especially the smokers who haven't switched yet.

Now at the risk of repeating myself, but bringing this back on topic: Despite our differences, I believe we all agree that the study that this thread is about and the headlines that study generated are bunk and part of an anti-vape propaganda campaign. It's bunk because it doesn't point out that the diketone levels in most of the products tested are so low they aren't a concern to anyone (not even to me!) and that even the worst of them (which I personally wouldn't touch) are still lower than that found in cigarettes.
 
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classwife

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( ohmagosh...I actually had this stand up ! I wonder if it's still in my box of "kid stuff" )
 

herb

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Dr. Siegel didn't say every ejuice was safer, nor did I. He addressed the juices in the Harvard study and compared Diacetyl levels to smoking cigarettes. If you want to demonstrate that some juices outside the study are higher in Diacetyl than cigarettes then do so. Post a link or cite your references. Show me the money, claiming "BS" ain't the money. Lol


Like i said in the bottom of my post i am not a article fetcher and don't care if people do not believe the info or not , i am a person who spends immense abouts of time reading and researching this stuff (the overwhelming majority of people do not ) thats fine but i have never had any interest in saving and archiving everything i have read over the years .

Thats not my job . I just comment on what i know and whats obvious or use what many call " basic common sense " and BCS would tell anybody that those articles are laughable and are not even applicable to how we vape these days .

I don't care what people believe , believe what ever you want , whats as obvious as day to some is completely missed by others and thats fine.

Fact is , it will take many years to know the effects of vaping these chemicals but anything that permanently scars lung tissue is a no go for me.
 
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