Harvard Eliquid Study Today

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crxess

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Since you are the one making the claim that dust is causing B.O., the burden of proof is on you to show documentation stating this. I am not making the distinction, you are ! I showed you an article that clearly stated "liquid" is used, and you came back with some nonsense about coffee grinding ! Now show me one study that implicated "dust" as a cause for B.O or that makes a distinction between different forms of diacetyl ( powder or liquid ) as far as potential causes of lung disease.

Okay

CDC
In general, flavoring chemicals are very volatile, so they can evaporate into the air from their liquid or solid form and can be easily inhaled. They can also be inhaled in the form of a powder if airborne dust is created in the production process.

CDC - Flavorings-Related Lung Disease: Exposures to Flavoring Chemicals - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic

J Occup Environ Hyg.
Air sampling was conducted for diacetyl and for total and respirable dust during the mixing of powder, liquid, or paste flavorings

Diacetyl emissions and airborne dust from butter flavorings used in microwave popcorn production. - PubMed - NCBI

Diacetyl Emissions and Airborne Dust from Butter
Flavorings Used in Microwave Popcorn Production
http://defendingscience.org/sites/default/files/upload/Boylstein_2006.pdf

CDC Safe Limit Recommendations for Factories.
working with diacetyl and pentanedione, which is another butter flavoring used as a diacetyl substitute. Hazard guidance for diacetyl, however, is only advisory and does not create legal obligations
I.E. Suggestive, assumptive

Tons of documentation Flowing from one end of the argument to the opposite end. So Far all are Assuming or suggesting.
Vapor aside - Inhalation is inhalation - there has been quite a bit of Time since first concerns over Diacetyl DUE TO CDC recommendations.
Since August 2000,
We are 9 days from 2016

Dry Powder - FDA - 2 cases
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/06p0379/06p-0379-cp00001-18-Harrison-vol1.pdf
 

Rossum

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Just reporting in from a few of the various high end bottom feeder forums, here on ECF. Everybody is in a good mood and we're all getting along very nicely. So far, the word "Diacetyl" has not been mentioned. Nobody is complaining of chest pains or shortness of breath. Nobody has died yet. Seems like Squonkers may reverse the harmful effects of these additives. Just a thought. Either way, the overall mood over there seems to be cheerful and happy.
That's because those threads don't have people vehemently denying that flavorings which are widely considered cytotoxic to lung tissue might entail a modicum of additional risk. :)
 

Asbestos4004

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That's because those threads don't have people vehemently denying that flavorings which are widely considered cytotoxic to lung tissue might entail a modicum of additional risk. :)
Nope...we basically stick to doing what we do best....trying to rid ourselves of all that hard earned cash that seems to be burning collective holes in all of our collective pockets!
 

crxess

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crxess,

I don't doubt this article. I just finished eating dinner at a christmas party with a 91 year old woman who has never had an ache, pain, or health problem in her entire life. She doesn't even live what would be considered a "healthy life".

She loves what she does and even at 91 you can't slow her down. But she also got "luck of the draw"....the right genetic code. She is frail and looks like she would break in half, but she is like a "little general" in personality. :lol:

But she has also never been in a car accident, or had any major injuries, organ diseases, organs removed, major surgeries, autoimmune diseases, etc.

I have another friend who lives on coca cola and pop tarts ......and she's never had a health problem, and even more amazing, never even had a cavity and she's in her mid-60s.

I have always "flossed" and brushed.....even worked 2-3 jobs a few times in my life to afford the best dental maintenance and care.....and yet I keep needing root canals, gum surgery, etc.

Just as there are people who lay out in the sun and don't get any of those suspicious moles and/or skin-cancer precursors.

I think there is only a certain amount of things you can CONTROL.

I think the KEY is living a lifestyle that makes you feel good, vibrant and healthy. I personally could not do that smoking cigarettes.....it was taking a toll in very obvious ways.

But, IF smoking made me feel great, with no negative effect, I'd probably still be smoking. :)

:)

Just posted that to show these kids there are 3...2 sides to every story/claim. :D

I'm just old enough to solidly believe much of what has been done in the name of good health has caused an internal(Body) Revolt against all that is natural in our world today.
We seem to have introduced severe and very negative changes to the Human immune system. This alone threatens every major organ in the human body destroying our natural ability for resist any foreign invasion.

Peanuts? Seriously, can they Explain how 1/3 of Americans(guesstimate) have become allergic to a Natural Root?

I truly believe We did it, are doing it and will continue to do it.
It may be best to look Back for answers, at times, not forward.;)
 

Mazinny

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Okay

CDC


CDC - Flavorings-Related Lung Disease: Exposures to Flavoring Chemicals - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic

J Occup Environ Hyg.


Diacetyl emissions and airborne dust from butter flavorings used in microwave popcorn production. - PubMed - NCBI

Diacetyl Emissions and Airborne Dust from Butter
Flavorings Used in Microwave Popcorn Production
http://defendingscience.org/sites/default/files/upload/Boylstein_2006.pdf

CDC Safe Limit Recommendations for Factories.
I.E. Suggestive, assumptive

Tons of documentation Flowing from one end of the argument to the opposite end. So Far all are Assuming or suggesting.
Vapor aside - Inhalation is inhalation - there has been quite a bit of Time since first concerns over Diacetyl DUE TO CDC recommendations. We are 9 days from 2016

Dry Powder - FDA - 2 cases
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/06p0379/06p-0379-cp00001-18-Harrison-vol1.pdf
I'm not sure what your point is tbh. These links actually negate the "powder and powder only " hypothesis. As we can clearly see by these links diacetyl was present in powder, paste and liquid in factory settings. Now where is the conclusion that diacetyl only in powder form is the culprit.
 

Racehorse

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:)

We seem to have introduced severe and very negative changes to the Human immune system. This alone threatens every major organ in the human body destroying our natural ability for resist any foreign invasion.

Peanuts? Seriously, can they Explain how 1/3 of Americans(guesstimate) have become allergic to a Natural Root?

I truly believe We did it, are doing it and will continue to do it.
It may be best to look Back for answers, at times, not forward.;)

No garden of eden here on the planet, that's for sure.

My grandmother cooked simple food from scratch, EVERY day, but it wasn't out of a bag, box, or can. She also didn't have Chem-lawn spraying her entire yard down every month, and when you opened the medicine cabinet there was only a bottle of Bayer aspirin, a bottle of witch hazel, and a bottle of corn huskers lotion. (no lie!). Her water wasn't flouridated, Chernobyl hadn't happened yet, and she never had numerous CAT scans or took wide-spectrum anti-biotics.

Who knows what contributing factors lead to so much disease and unhealth? She lived to 100 and died of natural causes. It could have just been healthy czechoslovakian genes. :) Her husband, my grandfather, lived to 94. He worked hard, and smoked a pipe 15 minutes or so every evening before bedtime (that was it.) They both had a shot of Canadian Club a few times a month when they couldn't sleep. I don't think they knew what junk food was....we never saw a soda, a bag of chips or anything like that at their house. (he got the flu at age 94, didn't realize it til he went to the hospital because he was so weak and couldn't breathe, and never came back out and was dead in 3 days.).

They were brought up on soup bones and potatoes, and eggs once in a while from their chickens......poor rural families in Czech. (i.e. they really didn't eat a lot (there wasn't much food) and there was no "affluenza" going on where they grew up. They moved here in their 20s, came thru Ellis Island, but like most people back then, pretty much stuck to their previous "habits". My grandmother and grandfather NEVER went to the doctor, and had ZERO known health problems, even in old age!!!

(either did Helen and Scott Nearing).

Take your pick about what has changed.
 
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crxess

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I'm not sure what your point is tbh. These links actually negate the "powder and powder only " hypothesis. As we can clearly see by these links diacetyl was present in powder, paste and liquid in factory settings. Now where is the conclusion that diacetyl only in powder form is the culprit.

Point I believe is to dispel your NO powder claim ;)

It's all just a game at this point anyway.

Would you like a load of ANTZ Science links? :D
 
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Mazinny

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Point I believe is to dispel your NO powder claim ;)

It's all just a game at this point anyway.

Would you like a load of ANTZ Science links? :D
So you are saying that you have no point, since i never said anything about powder one way or another. All i said i haven't seen any study that distinguishes potential risk, based on the form factor.

As to your last sentence, again no idea what you're on about, other than to throw around the acronym ANTZ again, whenever you have no point. BTW "ANTZ' has become so stale with overuse, that its rendered almost meaningless imo. Once upon a time, ANTZ meant ANTZ, not " anyone who has a different opinion "
 
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Rossum

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Who knows what contributing factors lead to so much disease and unhealth?
I suspect one of the factors is that 100+ years ago, sickly people mostly just died, many of them in childhood, so if their ill health was due to a short straw in the genetic lottery, they weren't able to pass it on to a future generation.

I believe another factor is diet, in part due to the mass production of highly processed foods, but also due to some serious misinformation regarding what's healthy to eat and what isn't.
 

crxess

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So you are saying that you have no point, since i never said anything about powder one way or another. All i said i haven't seen any study that distinguishes potential risk, based on the form factor.

As to your last sentence, again no idea what you're on about, other than to throw around the acronym ANTZ again, whenever you have no point. BTW "ANTZ' has become so stale with overuse, that its rendered almost meaningless imo. Once upon a time, ANTZ meant ANTZ, not " anyone who has a different opinion "

Okay - in clear language - Maybe
I'd be glad to post Science in either direction should you need. It is all there, the good, the not so good and the bad.
You performers are making the circus, I'm just here for the :pop: at this point :D
 

Douggro

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I believe another factor is diet, in part due to the mass production of highly processed foods, but also due to some serious misinformation regarding what's healthy to eat and what isn't.
And factor in the genetics. We still are genetically programmed to build the fat stores for times when food is scarce. Reliable and plentiful food sources is an invention of the Industrial Age. Highly processed foods are only compounding the issue.
 

Mazinny

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Okay - in clear language - Maybe
I'd be glad to post Science in either direction should you need. It is all there, the good, the not so good and the bad.
You performers are making the circus, I'm just here for the :pop: at this point :D
Sorry, i have no idea what you are trying to say. Maybe what ? I never asked you to post " Science " whether it's good, not so good, or bad " whatever that's supposed to mean. To me your last two posts ( supposedly responding to my posts ), are just a bunch words that don't cohere at any point. Heck, if i knew what you are trying to say, i might even agree :)

Merry Christmas !
 

Jman8

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/Thread
/Issue
/Inflated Concern

But wait....

Anticipated feeble rebuttal #1: But Jman, it MIGHT be

AFR #2: But Jman, it COULD be

AFR #3: See Jman, you deny that the potential of it being linked to some lung issues. AFR #3a: You think it is perfectly safe.

AFR #4: But Jman, 28.4 years from now it WILL be. That's just common sense. Perhaps even factual.

AFR #5: But Jman, we don't know what we don't know. You know what I'm saying?

AFR #6: Geez Jman, just cause there's no link doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed. It absolutely should be. But in no way do I favor the FDA regulations.

AFR #7: Jman, stop calling me ANTZ just cause I see a link that isn't there and am engaging in fear mongering. Maybe, you're the ANTZ Jman. You ever consider that?

AFR #8: There is no number 8. (That number is reserved for Jman)

AFR #9: Link: To connect in some way two items that thus far science hasn't linked, but FUD has firmly established a definitive potential for a link

AFR #10: Disclosure! Or it's all lies and completely unethical. Disagreement with this assertion is futile.
 
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Mazinny

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But wait....

Anticipated feeble rebuttal #1: But Jman, it MIGHT be

AFR #2: But Jman, it COULD be

AFR #3: See Jman, you deny that the potential of it being linked to some lung issues. AFR #3a: You think it is perfectly safe.

AFR #4: But Jman, 28.4 years from now it WILL be. That's just common sense. Perhaps even factual.

AFR #5: But Jman, we don't know what we don't know. You know what I'm saying?

AFR #6: Geez Jman, just cause there's no link doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed. It absolutely should be. But in no way do I favor the FDA regulations.

AFR #7: Jman, stop calling me ANTZ just cause I see a link that isn't there and am engaging in fear mongering. Maybe, you're the ANTZ Jman. You ever consider that?

AFR #8: There is no number 8. (That number is reserved for Jman)

AFR #9: Link: To connect in some way two items that thus far science hasn't linked, but FUD has firmly established a definitive potential for a link

AFR #10: Disclosure! Or it's all lies and completely unethical. Disagreement with this assertion is futile.
Swear to god, i am ROFL ! You even reply to your own post to make a faux hypothetical argument !! How about taking a few days vacation from sarcasm and "debating" and coming back fresh in 2016.

Merry Christmas !

Btw : commenting on AFR ( i am chuckling even as i type AFR ! ) #7, it has been suggested more than once that you are an ANTZ plant ! Swear to god it is true !
 
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Mazinny

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True and not true. For a tiny tiny minority of vapers ( those who are convinced that it will be proven harmful in vaping ), perhaps it is an inflated concern, but for the vast majority ( over 90 % ) of vapers for whom diacetyl may just as well be a type of cheese, it clearly is not an inflated concern. So overall, not an inflated concern imo, when the vast majority haven't even heard of it.
 

crxess

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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays
Da/Ap Concerns
santa-smiley-emoticon.gif


;)
 
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Jman8

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it has been suggested more than once that you are an ANTZ plant ! Swear to god it is true !

Wouldn't that be interesting?

At our last monthly meeting, I was telling my guys how I enjoy making fun of us and undermining everything we are up to. I was also suggesting we drink diacetyl laced kool-aid and make a suicide pact. That didn't go over very well, but then we vaped, had a smoke and called up the Pubs to offer our full support. As an aside, we sooooo know that the diketone thing is completely without merit, but love watching you all do our dirty work. It gives us great pleasure. Oh btw, Dr. F. (or Kman as I like to call him) was there, as usual, but I'm probably not suppose to mention that. :cool:
 
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skoony

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Since you are the one making the claim that dust is causing B.O., the burden of proof is on you to show documentation stating this. I am not making the distinction, you are ! I showed you an article that clearly stated "liquid" is used, and you came back with some nonsense about coffee grinding ! Now show me one study that implicated "dust" as the cause for B.O or that makes a distinction between different forms of diacetyl ( powder or liquid ) as far as potential causes of lung disease.
Thanks @crxess for the info.
I have read most if not all the government literature concerning their studies about what happened
in the plants. Nowhere do they specifically state what form of diacetyl was used nor when any
specific form was used more than any other. Many of the studies just referred to diacetyl leaving
the reader to speculate what form was used. From personal experience I know dry bulk raw material
is cheaper to package and ship and a likely first choice unless other factors come into play.
Further the studies are none to clear about the processes going on and when they are occurring.
Generally and oil (primarily soy bean) is heated in a vat where the flavorings and all other necessary
ingredients are mixed together. When ready this is added to the kernels.
When the government did simulated testing of all three forms they placed them in sealed test tubes
and heated them quickly to 50C (122F). They found the highest ppm of diacetyl in air from the liquid form,
then the paste,the powdered being the lowest. This makes sense in a test tube. However they fail to
explain which process occurring at the plants these where simulating and or what plants these had occurred.
The only hint one can find is the reference about the powder becoming a dust born contaminant during
the mixing process. Note the government never tested the three forms of diacetyl after already being
blended into the final product. So where was the exposure coming from? Liquids in ambient air disperse and
dissipate very quickly generally. Dust not so much. Dust also will collect. It gets tracked all over the production
area.
Considering the links from two Universities with distinguished medical facilities I posted consider popcorn lung
an airborne dust related disease I will consider it dust related until proven otherwise. Dust will stick to your
lungs. Liquids unless causing an immediate chemical reaction that is causing harm should in most cases flush
out of your system. The dust makes sense.



There are ZERO studies that say with certainty that vaping is 100% safe , is vaping better than smoking i don't think anyone can deny that but completely safe , don't think so .

As to your second comment , you know very well that cannot be proven , so your saying it's a fact that diketones (without question) have absolutely nothing to do and are not a contributor in any way to any disease where smoking is to blame , OK man , hopeless, truly hopeless.
There are studies that say vaping is 100% safe. These primarily are for the PG and nicotine.
There are many other studies indicating that overall vaping is anywhere from 95% to 99.9 %
safer than smoking. When the studies are averaged out it comes to around 98.7% safer.
What you fail to realize is in the real world where nothing can be said to be 100% safe
there comes a point where the chances for harm are so low that no harm may occur at all
and if in fact it did it would be impossible to prove what actually caused the harm.
The sample rate would be to low. So for real world scenario's one could say,yes its safe
as anything could be. You can use the word safe! You do not have to allude to the possibility
of harm when that possibility has no quantifiable meaning.
:2c:
Regards
Mike
 
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mattiem

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I don't think anyone anywhere is claiming that vaping is 100% safe. Nothing in the world we live in is 100% safe and if someone claims that they have found a 100% safe product then they need to be called out on it but I don't think one would find a single thing that is 100% safe or a single post on this vast forum that claims that vaping is 100% safe.

I hope this post is politically correct enough and even those that claim that someone has claimed that vaping is 100% safe will understand that no one is claiming that vaping (or anything) is 100% safe. Saying safer is not saying 100% safe. The ones that need to hear this will know who they are and I hope they will understand exactly what safer means. It DOES NOT mean 100% safe.

Now I am going to go get busy making pies for our feast tomorrow. :D
 
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