Harvard Eliquid Study Today

[herb]

Facts:

Every known cause of BO is a powdered compound in a dusty environment. Coal dust in coal mines, cotton dust in textile mills, and powdered diacetyl in popcorn factories.

As a result, the medical world considers BO a "dust born disease". Thanks to Skoony for providing a number of links to that.

There are NO KNOWN CASES of BO outside of dusty industrial situations.

ETA: There are no known cases of BO among vapers either. Although vaping has been around "only" 7 years or so, it is a FACT that BO showed up in popcorn workers in two years or less.

The fact that there are one billion smokers, with NOT ONE CASE of BO found, and MILLIONS OF AUTOPSIED lungs showing no evidence of BO supports the idea that the science and the medical community were right- diaceytl, like other agents of BO, are only dangerous in powdered/dust form. And of course, the medical community finds no link between smoking and BO because that community knows about all the millions of autopsied lungs showing no evidence of BO.

There is no reason to think vaping will be any different. It may turn out that way, but it would be surprising if it does.

Everyone is free to choose what to vape or to go back to cigs if they can't deal with the ugly propaganda here and elsewhere. That is a totally different thing than a review of the FACTS without speculation and propaganda. I never try to predict the future to find some ultimate truth. I merely point out that the FACTS IU outlined above suggest diacytl is safe, at least in roughly the quantities in cig smoke (equivalent to about 300 micrograms/ml of juice)

This is not relevant data , c, mon man , you posted old news , i asked for specific data , you failed to come up with it . Why did you fail ? Because like i said IT'S NOT AVAILABLE .

Where is the data on sub ohming Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin , diacetyl is just one diketone which permanently scars lung tissue .

Remember , we are talking about levels that exceed that of real cigs , what you posted doesn't even consider sub ohm vaping and higher than real cigarette diketone levels which was found in some e juices .

Don't waste your time though , as i said countless times before it's not available now .

 

[herb]

Mike

You rock Mike

 

[VNeil]

Waiting for what possibly might happen 20 year's down the road is
a dodge. Current science tells us their will be no there,there.
Every one seems to forget that vaping cold be so safe as not
to warrant any serious health concerns at all. Shall we regulate it
out of business until this just as likely outcome happens?
Regards
Mike

My prediction:

FDA enacts deeming
BT takes complete control over what is left in the industry
With competition, BT is free to add whatever additives they want. If it's possible to make nic highly addictive in eJuice, they will. They might add another 100 compounds, just like they do with cigs.
FDA looks the other way, just like they do with cigs
End result: Twenty years from now, eCigs will be proved dangerous, due to all the additives, and people will have no choice because the barriers to entry into the industry is so high (which is exactly what FDA wants)
The ultimate irony.

And all the endless repeating of propaganda here, such as Herb's "it's just a matter of time before serious health consequences reveal themselves" will convince vapers and public alike to accept all that. The diketones are not nearly as dangerous as the propaganda around here. But with few here apparently capable of critical thinking, the end result is inevitable.

 

[VNeil]

This is not relevant data , c, mon man , you posted old news , i asked for specific data , you failed to come up with it . Why did you fail ? Because like i said IT'S NOT AVAILABLE .

Where is the data on sub ohming Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin , diacetyl is just one diketone which permanently scars lung tissue .

Remember , we are talking about levels that exceed that of real cigs , what you posted doesn't even consider sub ohm vaping and higher than real cigarette diketone levels which was found in some e juices .

Don't waste your time though , as i said countless times before it's not available now .

So now you throw out the worst case excess usage card. Those that want to subohm high diketone juice will pave that road. But there is no evidence whatsoever the result will be any different than cigs. You can increase the eJuice dosage and I can find people that smoked more packs a day, with no BO in evidence. It's a specious argument but it's all you are left with. And my news is very relevant. It is not old news, it is THE TRUTH.

 

[VNeil]

I'm out of this discussion, for the night at least. I have a life and people can believe what they want. They can believe the truth or the propagandists. No one disputed a single fact I raised. No one. They can try to ignore the 50 Ton Elephant but it won't go away.

 

[skoony]

This is not relevant data , c, mon man , you posted old news , i asked for specific data , you failed to come up with it . Why did you fail ? Because like i said IT'S NOT AVAILABLE .

Where is the data on sub ohming Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin , diacetyl is just one diketone which permanently scars lung tissue .

Remember , we are talking about levels that exceed that of real cigs , what you posted doesn't even consider sub ohm vaping and higher than real cigarette diketone levels which was found in some e juices .

Don't waste your time though , as i said countless times before it's not available now .

Sub ohmer' s as a general rule prefer straight VG for the clouds.
Flavors tend to be over powering and are used sparingly if at
all.
Regards
Mike

 

[crxess]

It appears that since updated data is not available at this time because again, it's way too early in the game , some folks prefer to throw caution into the wind instead of taking the more "common sense approach" of playing it safe until reliable data becomes available.

If any person her seriously Believed 100% in this, not only would hey Not be members, they would not be Vaping and would likely be campaigning against the risk.
Hmmmm.............

Actually Common sense makes sense. Also recognizing people have different definitions of Common sense makes sense. Arguing that point makes NO sense.

Some people Never Ever drink Tap water due to their definition of common sense.

To me, Occasionally Vaping a flavor which may contain 2% Vanilla Bean Ice Cream while having next to no(but a slight bit) of Diacetyl in the formula, is not a significant Risk.

Still, according to some in this thread - That is to much and a BIG DANGER. So I ask, Prove it.

When is using common sense smart, when someone else disagrees?

 

[herb]

If any person her seriously Believed 100% in this, not only would hey Not be members, they would not be Vaping and would likely be campaigning against the risk.
Hmmmm.............

Actually Common sense makes sense. Also recognizing people have different definitions of Common sense makes sense. Arguing that point makes NO sense.

Some people Never Ever drink Tap water due to their definition of common sense.

To me, Occasionally Vaping a flavor which may contain 2% Vanilla Bean Ice Cream while having next to no(but a slight bit) of Diacetyl in the formula, is not a significant Risk.

Still, according to some in this thread - That is to much and a BIG DANGER. So I ask, Prove it.

When is using common sense smart, when someone else disagrees?

Your first comment makes no sense to me (not be members , for what , believing that vaping diketones is dangerous ) you fail to remember that most do not vape diketone filled juices who believe in being cautious but anyway .

So now you change the argument to "Occasionally vaping VBIC " , that is not even remotely close to what we are discussing . The topic is what health risks are we likely to see 10 -15 years down the road when sub ohm ing large quantities of diketone filled juices (juice consumption has gone through the roof ) with many actually exceeding that of real cigarette levels , not occasionally vaping 2% of VBIC LOL , c, mon.

We haven't even discussed what Acetyl Propionyl and Acetion can possibly lead to , this isn't just about diacetyl . Lets discuss what this is really about , it's certainly not occasionally vaping 2% of VBIC .

 

[beckdg]

Vaping should not be taken away , what should be eliminated imo is all diketones that are so prevalent in todays E juices or at the very least make vendors reveal truthfully about what their juices really contain.

It's not that only diketone filled e juices are a vapors only choice in todays market.

Pffft...

I enjoy my diketone juice.

Methinks you meant eliminated from YOUR juice.

I'm fine with that.

Tapatyped

 

[crxess]

Where is the data on sub ohming Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin , diacetyl is just one diketone which permanently scars lung tissue .

Please Link this study

 

[crxess]

The topic is what health risks are we likely to see 10 -15 years down the road when sub ohm ing large quantities of diketone filled juices (juice consumption has gone through the roof ) with many actually exceeding that of real cigarette levels , not occasionally vaping 2% of VBIC LOL , c, mon.

When did the Thread Title, Op post change?

 

[WillyZee]

Sub ohmer' s as a general rule prefer straight VG for the clouds.
Flavors tend to be over powering and are used sparingly if at
all.
Regards
Mike

not sure where this general rule is posted ... every sub ohmer I've met, uses the same juice everyone else uses, usually lower nic, however, same flavours.

A lot of B+Ms now only carry low nic juice because of the sub ohmers ... the juice still has the flavouring in it though.

I have not met even one sub ohm vaper who only vapes VG ... then again, I do not know any non-smokers who started vaping.

 

[skoony]

not sure where this general rule is posted ... every sub ohmer I've met, uses the same juice everyone else uses, usually lower nic, however, same flavours.

A lot of B+Ms now only carry low nic juice because of the sub ohmers ... the juice still has the flavouring in it though.

I have not met even one sub ohm vaper who only vapes VG ... then again, I do not know any non-smokers who started vaping.

I have been reading this forum everyday for two and a half years. To consume
20 -30 ml of juice a day as @Lessifer says one would have to be a serious
low ohm sub-ohmer. They generally prefer low nic and flavor if any is very low.
That's the way it works.
Regards
Mike

 

[Mazinny]

Facts:

Every known cause of BO is a powdered compound in a dusty environment. Coal dust in coal mines, cotton dust in textile mills, and powdered diacetyl in popcorn factories.

As a result, the medical world considers BO a "dust born disease". Thanks to Skoony for providing a number of links to that.

There was a reason i repeatedly asked you ( and you repeatedly refused to answer ) if you have personally read the NIOSH studies, or relied on Skoonys interpretation. NIOSH has different sampling and analytical methods for DI/AP vapor and air borne powder, because both were present in the factories with sick workers. Here is just one example of sick workers exposed to vapor from heated liquid :

Lung-destroying diacetyl still harming workers, allowed in e-cigs

The yellow liquid used to flavor candy, chips, coffee and e-cigarettes smells and tastes like butter. It's hard to tell from looking at it that it can obliterate your lungs if you breathe it in.

Emanuel Diaz de Leon didn't know it as he poured jugs of the concentration into giant vats at a coffee roasting plant in Tyler, Texas.

Neither did his co-workers, who spent 12-hour days roasting and grinding the coated beans that would later be sold in grocery stores and restaurants nationwide as hazelnut flavored coffee.

The workers never guessed it even when they noticed they were short of breath, when what they thought were colds and allergies worsened, then never went away.

Doctors assumed they had asthma and bronchitis .....

 

[skoony]

There was a reason i repeatedly asked you ( and you repeatedly refused to answer ) if you have personally read the NIOSH studies, or relied on Skoonys interpretation. NIOSH has different sampling and analytical methods for DI/AP vapor and air borne powder, because both were present in the factories with sick workers. Here is just one example of sick workers exposed to vapor from heated liquid :

Lung-destroying diacetyl still harming workers, allowed in e-cigs

The yellow liquid used to flavor candy, chips, coffee and e-cigarettes smells and tastes like butter. It's hard to tell from looking at it that it can obliterate your lungs if you breathe it in.

Emanuel Diaz de Leon didn't know it as he poured jugs of the concentration into giant vats at a coffee roasting plant in Tyler, Texas.

Neither did his co-workers, who spent 12-hour days roasting and grinding the coated beans that would later be sold in grocery stores and restaurants nationwide as hazelnut flavored coffee.

The workers never guessed it even when they noticed they were short of breath, when what they thought were colds and allergies worsened, then never went away.

Doctors assumed they had asthma and bronchitis .....

Of course we are to assume grinding of said coated beans produced
no fine dry particulate matter.
Regards
Mike

 

[Mazinny]

Of course we are to assume grinding of said coated beans produced
no fine dry particulate matter.
Regards
Mike

 

[crxess]

Is he wrong?
even the CDC commented on Grinding Dust

 

[DeAnna2112]

There was a reason i repeatedly asked you ( and you repeatedly refused to answer ) if you have personally read the NIOSH studies, or relied on Skoonys interpretation. NIOSH has different sampling and analytical methods for DI/AP vapor and air borne powder, because both were present in the factories with sick workers. Here is just one example of sick workers exposed to vapor from heated liquid :

Lung-destroying diacetyl still harming workers, allowed in e-cigs

The yellow liquid used to flavor candy, chips, coffee and e-cigarettes smells and tastes like butter. It's hard to tell from looking at it that it can obliterate your lungs if you breathe it in.

Emanuel Diaz de Leon didn't know it as he poured jugs of the concentration into giant vats at a coffee roasting plant in Tyler, Texas.

Neither did his co-workers, who spent 12-hour days roasting and grinding the coated beans that would later be sold in grocery stores and restaurants nationwide as hazelnut flavored coffee.

The workers never guessed it even when they noticed they were short of breath, when what they thought were colds and allergies worsened, then never went away.

Doctors assumed they had asthma and bronchitis .....

Thank you for sharing this link Mazinny...it was a long read but well worth it!!!!

 

[skoony]

Thank you for sharing this link Mazinny...it was a long read but well worth it!!!!

LOL,from the article.

"Rats exposed to diacetyl at levels similar to those in popcorn factories suffered major lung injuries, according to a 2001 study by federal scientists. Half died within six hours. Numerous additional animal studies between 2004 and 2012 documented significant damage caused by the chemical."
Never seen that study. The studies from 2004 to 2012 cited some damage but, none were
categorized as significant or permanent. Don't believe me? how long were the rats allowed to
live after the exposure was over?
Regards
Mike

 

[crxess]

{Subsequent studies have helped to clarify the role of diacetyl. Toxicology studies have shown that vapors from heated butter flavorings can cause damage to airways in animals (Hubbs et al, 2002). Studies in both rats and mice demonstrate that the cells lining the airways can be damaged by inhaling diacetyl vapors as a single agent exposure in both acute and subchronic studies (Hubbs et al. 2008; Morgan et al. 2008). In mice, aspiration of diacetyl alone caused a pattern of injury that replicates some of the features of human obliterative bronchiolitis (Morgan et al. 2008). These findings support the hypothesis that diacetyl vapors are an inhalation hazard in the workplace. Also, a study from the Netherlands shows that chemical workers in a plant that manufactured diacetyl developed the same type of lung disease as microwave popcorn workers (van Rooy et al. 2007 and 2009). These chemical workers had less complicated exposures than microwave popcorn workers. Overall, current evidence points to diacetyl as one agent that can cause flavorings-related lung disease. Other flavoring ingredients may also play a role.}

CDC - Flavorings-Related Lung Disease: Exposures to Flavoring Chemicals - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic

While Most Vapers Breath 24 hrs. Per day
Most Vapers do no inhale Vaper with every breath over any given reasonable period of time, say 8 hrs. Admittedly a few may(chain vapers)
Of these Vapers a low percentage likely Vape e-liquids with the Highest inclusion of Flavors with Diketones and many of those may not include Diacetyl(topic of convo)

If Safe Exposure limits are reasonable, and most Vapers that actually use e-liquids containing safe limits of these chemicals(no different than Nicotine limits) then the issue would seem to be with Abusive Manufacturers, flavorings.

This All or Nothing Debate is Ridiculous.

It likely is NOT 100% Safe - as much of what we experience in life.
It seems to be Safe to use at Proper levels according to CDC/NIOCH recommendations on limitation of inhalation in Factory settings.

hmmmmmmmm

Flavorings are still being produced and Workers are still exposed with limiting controls in place. (moderation?)

Disclosure
Responsible manufacturing
Educated choice

Not trying to give anyone a hard time. People keep saying Vaping has not had enough time. Not sure what they are basing this on or if they even realize how long people have been vaping. Not sure they even realize how long the Popcorn Lung claims have been around. The years are Flipping by.

Dr. Percy Spencer Actually holds the Patent for Microwave Popcorn - Discovered in 1946 perhaps a significant discovery that helped lead to the actual Microwave.
Microwave Popcorn was Popularized in the early 1980's
CDC investigation and action started 2000-2002
Fixed Obstructive Lung Disease in Workers at a Microwave Popcorn Factory --- Missouri, 2000--2002

Diacetyl inhalation risk has had roughly 14 years available for Study to date.

Still waiting on some study results

* If Nicotine was tested and Judged at Insecticide rates - the rats would likely have died.