Harvard Eliquid Study Today

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ReigntheGamer

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I don't understand how people can not care about smokers yet care about all vapers :(

I don't get it either but have seen it a lot when people quit something for a more healthy option, they tend to look down on those who have not made the same step yet.
 

ReigntheGamer

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and wait some of you are the same people that keep defending diketones knowing there has been a link to others in other industries who have inhaled them having severe respiratory problems....wow talk about caring about people...wow!!

Defending a position based on personal belief and objectively evaluating the evidence provided has nothing to do with caring.
 

skoony

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and what exactly would that change? we don't know what risk diketones may pose to vapers, all we know is that inhaled diketones have been linked in other industries to severe respiratory problems. None of us know how this translates to vaping diketones and the risk it may pose.
Yes we do know the risks. I would say zero. Read my post 19 in this thread.
Safer liquids?
:2c:
Regards
Mike
 

Douggro

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gotta say, this is legit. ...I guess I have to find the vendors that says "no diacetyl." Popcorn lungs, huh..
To avoid conclusions being drawn from lack of context, expand on what you mean here please. I see this could have been said with intended sarcasm..
And for the record, the vendor that I get the majority of my juice from - MT Baker - claims there is no diacetyl used in their products. So those vendors do exist.
 
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VNeil

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If people wish to smoke that is there choice as is the health effects that come along with it. I worry about what i do and the choices i make as a vaper..not others choices for smoking and the health consequences of it. Everybody has a right to make their own choices and decisions...they have made them like i have made mine. Smoking is no longer relevant for me as a vaper..how that got twisted into not caring about others is beyond me.
The world's one billion smokers provide important clues as to the effect of inhaled diketones. This has been discussed at length in this thread and I won't repeat it unless you ask. Except to suggest it is a 50 Ton Elephant in the room. Ignoring smokers is ignoring a 50 Ton Elephant.

If, however, the facts do not matter then I guess the experience of smokers can be safely ignored.

It was suggested here and in other threads that it might take 40-50 years for diketones to prove deadly. That logic can be applied to every compound in vaping. And in every other aspect of life. There is nothing wrong with dealing with the unknown by abstaining. But then you would have to abstain from cell phone use, wireless network use, GMO foods, and how many other aspects of modern life?

A couple diketone/popcorn factory facts that have been misstated and otherwise ignored: The workers thought to be most at risk (both mixers and quality control workers who popped 100 bags of popcorn each day) showed up to around an 83% incident rate of BO. For ALL the factory floor workers, mostly exposed to far lower levels, the MEDIAN employment time before the 20% or so affected showed significant loss of lung function, per spirometry tests, was 1.5 years. That is not the outliers or exceptions, that means half the affected workers were affected in 1.5 years or less, and the most rapid cases were 5 months. Within 10 years some were so badly affected they were candidates for lung transplants. The onset of lung disease was so fast that NIOSH, over a period of 5 or 6 years, was able to track that onset (in newly employed workers) in the course of multiple rounds of attempts to mitigate the damage. They only needed a year or two before they saw new employees affected.

In the meantime, smokers do not routinely come up as candidates for lung transplants after 1.5 to 10 years of smoking. If they did, you would see large scale reports of smokers in their 20s with significant lung damage, many needing lung transplants. Yet smokers inhale 334 µg of diacetyl with each cigarette. The factory floor production line workers (at least risk) were exposed to about 2700 µg per day, or about 8-9 cigarettes, less than a half PAD, yet many had serious lung damage.

This Harvard report neglects to mention that most of the juice they studied, that they included in their headline blaring 74% containing hazardous diketones, neglects to mention that only 1 or 2 of over 50 samples had more than 10 µg/ml or so. Most were trace amounts, near the limits of detection. THAT is what I have the most problem with in the report.

The facts matter. Even the smoker's facts matter. A lot.

Source- see page 4-5 of this NIOSH report: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2000-0401-2991.pdf

Good science almost always simplifies seemingly contradictory observations and accounts for all the facts. For thousands of years, people looked up and observed that the stars appeared to revolve around the Earth. They did have to ignore the occasional but periodic retrograde motion of the planets and some came up with increasingly preposterous speculations to explain how the planets could do loops as they traveled around the supposedly Earth-centric center of the universe. That was "bad science". It took a couple of very brave guys to move the center of the universe at least to the sun, thus explaining that retrograde motion (as well as other anomalies) in a very simple way. That was good science in action.
 

crxess

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and wait some of you are the same people that keep defending diketones knowing there has been a link to others in other industries who have inhaled them having severe respiratory problems....wow talk about caring about people...wow!!
You really do not get the overall of most conversations, do you. :blink:

As long as your point is satisfied..........:oops:

Diketones may or may not prove to be significant to vaping safety. ETA unknown, but until then it is ALL DEBATE.

MEANWHILE - these Bogus controlled test are Fuel for the latest E-CIGS ARE A DANGER campaigns.

You, and many others here see a chemical debate, while I Clearly see an AGENDA. Would you like me to start posting the Junk articles already springing up headlining E-cigarettes are laced with Diacetyl?
Are they?
When did all e-cigarettes become Diacetyl portals?
Why are all smokers suddenly going to get Popcorn Lung if they switch to E-cigs.

EVERYONE NEEDS TO STEP BACK AND LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE
:facepalm:

Yes, I Vape...........so Screw the Smoker? How about we do our damndest to Keep Vaping around just in case another Smokers wants a viable way out? :glare:
Yes, I care about the Smoker, just as I once was a Smoker and ECF cared about me.:blush:

Gotta go..........getting ticked......
 

DeAnna2112

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You really do not get the overall of most conversations, do you. :blink:

As long as your point is satisfied..........:oops:

Diketones may or may not prove to be significant to vaping safety. ETA unknown, but until then it is ALL DEBATE.

MEANWHILE - these Bogus controlled test are Fuel for the latest E-CIGS ARE A DANGER campaigns.

You, and many others here see a chemical debate, while I Clearly see an AGENDA. Would you like me to start posting the Junk articles already springing up headlining E-cigarettes are laced with Diacetyl?
Are they?
When did all e-cigarettes become Diacetyl portals?
Why are all smokers suddenly going to get Popcorn Lung if they switch to E-cigs.

EVERYONE NEEDS TO STEP BACK AND LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE
:facepalm:

Yes, I Vape...........so Screw the Smoker? How about we do our damndest to Keep Vaping around just in case another Smokers wants a viable way out? :glare:
Yes, I care about the Smoker, just as I once was a Smoker and ECF cared about me.:blush:

Gotta go..........getting ticked......


Yes it's quite clear you and some others are overly consumed with agenda conspiracies. Get ticked off i don't care..you'll get over it just like i did for being accused of not caring about smokers. I try to convert every smoker i know that crosses my path but i don't care about smokers because smoking statistics compared to vaping are no longer relevant for me as a vaper and the choices i make as a vaper.
 

DeAnna2112

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The world's one billion smokers provide important clues as to the effect of inhaled diketones. This has been discussed at length in this thread and I won't repeat it unless you ask. Except to suggest it is a 50 Ton Elephant in the room. Ignoring smokers is ignoring a 50 Ton Elephant.

If, however, the facts do not matter then I guess the experience of smokers can be safely ignored.

It was suggested here and in other threads that it might take 40-50 years for diketones to prove deadly. That logic can be applied to every compound in vaping. And in every other aspect of life. There is nothing wrong with dealing with the unknown by abstaining. But then you would have to abstain from cell phone use, wireless network use, GMO foods, and how many other aspects of modern life?

A couple diketone/popcorn factory facts that have been misstated and otherwise ignored: The workers thought to be most at risk (both mixers and quality control workers who popped 100 bags of popcorn each day) showed up to around an 83% incident rate of BO. For ALL the factory floor workers, mostly exposed to far lower levels, the MEDIAN employment time before the 20% or so affected showed significant loss of lung function, per spirometry tests, was 1.5 years. That is not the outliers or exceptions, that means half the affected workers were affected in 1.5 years or less, and the most rapid cases were 5 months. Within 10 years some were so badly affected they were candidates for lung transplants. The onset of lung disease was so fast that NIOSH, over a period of 5 or 6 years, was able to track that onset (in newly employed workers) in the course of multiple rounds of attempts to mitigate the damage. They only needed a year or two before they saw new employees affected.

In the meantime, smokers do not routinely come up as candidates for lung transplants after 1.5 to 10 years of smoking. If they did, you would see large scale reports of smokers in their 20s with significant lung damage, many needing lung transplants. Yet smokers inhale 334 µg of diacetyl with each cigarette. The factory floor production line workers (at least risk) were exposed to about 2700 µg per day, or about 8-9 cigarettes, less than a half PAD, yet many had serious lung damage.

This Harvard report neglects to mention that most of the juice they studied, that they included in their headline blaring 74% containing hazardous diketones, neglects to mention that only 1 or 2 of over 50 samples had more than 10 µg/ml or so. Most were trace amounts, near the limits of detection. THAT is what I have the most problem with in the report.

The facts matter. Even the smoker's facts matter. A lot.

Source- see page 4-5 of this NIOSH report: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2000-0401-2991.pdf

Good science almost always simplifies seemingly contradictory observations and accounts for all the facts. For thousands of years, people looked up and observed that the stars appeared to revolve around the Earth. They did have to ignore the occasional but periodic retrograde motion of the planets and some came up with increasingly preposterous speculations to explain how the planets could do loops as they traveled around the supposedly Earth-centric center of the universe. That was "bad science". It took a couple of very brave guys to move the center of the universe at least to the sun, thus explaining that retrograde motion (as well as other anomalies) in a very simple way. That was good science in action.


I understand and have no issue with what works for you..but nothing you have said changes the fact that we do not fully understand the link that has been made and associated with these workers..and what that means for us vapers. Now if your rebuttal works for you and is enough to cause you to feel vaping diketones is safe then by all means it's your lungs..your choice. I hope that choice remains for each vaper to make on their own. But until more studies are conducted and we have a better understanding about diketones i will not be vaping them.
 

sparkky1

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I don't understand how people can not care about smokers yet care about all vapers :(

EXACTLY ! if given the scientific modeling (not through the FDA or Harvard) of how much the amounts of toxic chemicals differ and how many less toxic chemicals in ejuice VS stinkys we will, turn the table on BT once and for all.
I for one have had enough of the lies (MAOIs), manipulation, corruption, killing, monetary bribes to be forced to live in the early 20th century mentality, what i'm saying is, 100 + years is too long for BT to keep running the table. https://iom.nationalacademies.org/~/media/Files/Activity Files/PublicHealth/Modified-Risk-Tobacco/MRTP_rb.pdf
 
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VNeil

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Yes it's quite clear you and some others are overly consumed with agenda conspiracies. ...
It is difficult to read Harvard's press release, linked in the first post here, and not see a clear agenda. Otherwise there would have been some acknowledgement that the vast majority of their tests were trace amounts. I wish you could understand that...
 

Douggro

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I try to convert every smoker i know that crosses my path but i don't care about smokers because smoking statistics compared to vaping are no longer relevant for me as a vaper and the choices i make as a vaper.
Yet you manage to contradict yourself in a single sentence. :facepalm:

You care enough about smokers to try to convert them to vaping. (To what end?)
But you don't care about them because you're only concerned about your choices as a (now) vaper.

Perhaps some critical self-analysis of you position is in order.
 
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crxess

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I try to convert every smoker i know that crosses my path but i don't care about smokers because smoking statistics compared to vaping are no longer relevant for me as a vaper and the choices i make as a vaper

Clearly I do not understand your logic, or communication there of. :blink:

Conspiracy Theories?
As Allen and his co-authors point out, there are more than 7,000 e-cigarette flavors currently marketed. Diacetyl, 2,3-pentanedione and acetoin are among the best-known chemicals used in these flavors.
7000 E-liquids, most untested, linked through Junk publication implications

http://XXwww.truth-out.org/news/ite...-workers-making-and-users-vaping-e-cigarettes

http://XXwww.motherjones.com/blue-m...-e-cigarettes-popcorn-lung-vape-pens-nicotine
http://XXwww.independent.co.uk/news...popcorn-lung-diacetyl-dangerous-a6767841.html
http://XXwww.telegraph.co.uk/news/s...g-chemical-linked-to-deadly-popcorn-lung.html
http://XXwww.statnews.com/2015/12/08/e-cigarette-flavorings-dangerous-chemicals/
Remove XX to view

Should I continue?
Weak minded Reporting, using canned press releases for sensationalist Headlines.
Playing right into the hands of Anti - Smoking, Anti-Vaping Activist.
Rebutal?:glare:
 
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VNeil

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I understand and have no issue with what works for you..but nothing you have said changes the fact that we do not fully understand the link that has been made and associated with these workers..and what that means for us vapers. Now if your rebuttal works for you and is enough to cause you to feel vaping diketones is safe then by all means it's your lungs..your choice. I hope that choice remains for each vaper to make on their own. But until more studies are conducted and we have a better understanding about diketones i will not be vaping them.
Even NIOSH readily acknowledges that they do not nearly understand the relationship between diacetyl and the popcorn worker problems. They are not even "fully sure" they picked the right compound. I think most people do not understand the uncertainties at every level of this debate. NIOSH seems to be more concerned with generally cleaning up the air in the factory, and trying to minimize the problem. This is all apparent near the end of the report I linked.
 

skoony

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I try to convert every smoker i know that crosses my path but i don't care about smokers because smoking statistics compared to vaping are no longer relevant for me as a vaper and the choices i make as a vaper.
What @Douggro said and in addition if you once smoked its totally relevant IMHO.
Regards
Mike
 
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Douggro

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Even NIOSH readily acknowledges that they do not nearly understand the relationship between diacetyl and the popcorn worker problems. They are not even "fully sure" they picked the right compound. I think most people do not understand the uncertainties at every level of this debate. NIOSH seems to be more concerned with generally cleaning up the air in the factory, and trying to minimize the problem. This is all apparent near the end of the report I linked.
^^^^Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!^^^^
Diacetyl and its cousins were implicated as the probable causative agents, but the exact exposure mechanism of what caused the BO in the workers remains unclear. There remains the possibility that it was diacetyl in conjunction with other compounds used the flavoring processing that were the causative mechanism.
 

DC2

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There remains the possibility that it was diacetyl in conjunction with other compounds used the flavoring processing that were the causative mechanism.
Don't forget the dust theory.
It's currently gaining popularity, at least in my head.
 
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