Heat Capacity and Juice Breakdown
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Coil setup and thickness of wire used don't matter too much in the real world. Studies love to talk about aldehyde but fail to mention the temperature at which those chemicals were produced. As long as the vapor still taste normal you're not inhaling the bad chemicals, if the temp gets too high you'll get the bad chemicals.
Now to answer the question about single vs dual or thick vs thin; who knows? vaping is moving 1,000 mph studies on vaping is going one mph, it's just theory at this point. I'm of the opinion that using less mass to get the same surface area is better simply because the coil will cool faster. Those fancy clapton coils take more power to get the same temperature compared to regular coils and take longer to cool down, that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as the coil never gets to the point where juices start to breakdown. Once again that's just my theory backed by nothing but speculation and my experience.
Now to answer the question about single vs dual or thick vs thin; who knows? vaping is moving 1,000 mph studies on vaping is going one mph, it's just theory at this point. I'm of the opinion that using less mass to get the same surface area is better simply because the coil will cool faster. Those fancy clapton coils take more power to get the same temperature compared to regular coils and take longer to cool down, that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as the coil never gets to the point where juices start to breakdown. Once again that's just my theory backed by nothing but speculation and my experience.
Ran into a bit of info on this earlier here. As @kbeam418 points out though, vaping technology moves vastly faster than even fake science which moves equally faster than real science. This is why the FDA wanted to slow down technology advancement so badly I think.
Anyway, someone, I forget who, pointed out that thicker wires in general will heat more air and less juice than equivalent thinner wires. This is made exponentially more true by exotic coils. They are effectively less efficient.
This would seem to imply, though in no way confirm, or even necessarily support, that the higher efficiency of thinner wire like the higher efficiency of dual coils might possibly avoid “above danger level temperatures “. Real science could probably answer this and likely eventually will. It’s likely going to be long after both the industry and fake science has moved on though.
Anyway, someone, I forget who, pointed out that thicker wires in general will heat more air and less juice than equivalent thinner wires. This is made exponentially more true by exotic coils. They are effectively less efficient.
This would seem to imply, though in no way confirm, or even necessarily support, that the higher efficiency of thinner wire like the higher efficiency of dual coils might possibly avoid “above danger level temperatures “. Real science could probably answer this and likely eventually will. It’s likely going to be long after both the industry and fake science has moved on though.
Don’t believe thicker wire equates to heating more air and less juice. If power is adjusted accordingly thinker wire can consume more juice. Mass of the wire equates to how long it retains heat but air flow also plays a major role. Believe with one of the studies conducted on aldehydes displayed how a MTL atty with a low mass coil was able to reach temperatures of concern. It’s much too early and way too little coffee for me to go searching for the article.
As for exotic coils – true many can employ a lot of mass, but the same brush cannot be used for all in terms of efficacy. Saying so is just a biased comment. An efficient exotic coil that employs a lowish mass can be implemented and if mass was matched with regular round wire both would display the same efficiency.
It's all about the temperature at which eliquids begin to break down into dangerous compounds; from everything I have read, the formaldehyde (and other aldehydes) begin to appear at ~420°F. More or less. Dual coils take only half of the power of single coils--but that's wattage. For example, if you have a 1.5Ω dual coil, if consists of two 3Ω coils. If you vape at 14 watts, for example, each coil only gets 7 watts of power (heat). So yes, they don't overheat as readily as the a single 1.5Ω coil would.
Neither is really better--again, we're talking about temperatures the coils reach. Thicker wires require more wattage, but they are also slower to heat up and cool down. Airflow, juice flow, coil mass and surface area also play critical role. If you want to be absolutely sure, use Temperature Control and stay at or below 420°F.
New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
Yeah, iirc you were the one in disagreement with the guy making the claim. The question I think, is one of how much additional juice an exotic coil can pull from a wick due to its high surface area compared to its high mass. This is a hard thing to test because even otherwise identical exotic coils are going to show differences when in operation. The other guy was of the opinion that it was less than one might think. I’ve been messing with large thin wire coils lately on the assumption that it was the other guy who was correct. My results have been mixed. I can get vapor production and density similar to those of the particular exotic coils I tried with a cooler vape using far fewer watts and somewhat less to similar total volts. The battery does seem last longer while juice usage remains similar. It’s not as big a difference as it should be though, and there was one guy who posted yesterday who was using a similar device to my test rig who reported results that were better than mine. Real science would be useful here. If any was done though it was done by a vape manufacturing company though and they’re not talking. It’s just dueling subjective opinions at this point. I will continue to mess with large low mass coils I think simply because I have no interest in learning to make exotic coils.
It’s not that I disagreed – I questioned the point of diminishing returns and requested objective data for the lack of it just means we are of subjective thought. And ones preference trumps all so how much of it really matters? It is difficult to compare one coil to another for matching one perimeter will always make another different - then the question becomes how much of that difference plays into the performance and what value does it have with the end user.
I do not have the eyesight nor the patience to make the wire used for exotic coils so I purchase pre made Clapton (type) wire and just wind my own coils. But when shopping for wire I take into account both the core and the wrap and by using Steam Engine as a guide I try to determine what works best in terms of maximizing surface area while keeping mass to a minimum. I also look to see if the coil would work best in a single or dual coil application or even both. I have come across many high mass coils that in a dual coil config I felt they were useless but performed very well in a single coil config.....depending on atomizer.
I did find that thread educational for I was unaware of a Radiator style coil up until then which led me to perform my own test and draw my own conclusions. BUT… I feel that an elongated coil like the Radiator, even one of low mass must capitalize on airflow otherwise it may not be serving much of a purpose. It’s not a one size fits all.
Yup. Too many variables not a big enough sample size simultaneously. And while doing the science may be possible to do, the results are likely to remain secret, and used occasionally as the private book in what is effectively a book cooking scheme to create misleading “studies”.
We’re reduced to spitting bits of anecdotal information at each other and hoping.
I’m beginning to see why people are buying their attys in sets of 3: subject A, subject B, and control.
Katya pretty much Nailed It in the 1st Sentence of this Post...
Since it is All About what Temperature the e-Liquid reaches, doing a Captain Obvious, it's All About what Temperature the Coil(s) Wire reach because it is the Coil(s) that Heat the e-Liquid.
So if I Rephrase your Question, it becomes... "Which Coil gets Hotter? A Coil made from a Large or a Smaller Gauge Wire."
But if I asked this Question, people would Quickly Point out that I haven't provided enough Information.
At what Wattage?
At what Air Flow?
At what RDA, RTA, Tank, etc
Am I trying to compare a Single Coil Atomizer to a Dual Coil Atomizer that is a Different make/model?
Are your Coils or Coil reaching 420F or More in the 1st Place?
See where this is Going? It Isn't always/usually a Single Issue.
So its Kinda Hard to Say what would be "Better"? Because I have found that when Most People change Anything related to their Coil, they Many times also change other things like Wattage and or Airflow to fine tune the hit to what they want.
I can answer the what temperature question for any coil of any wire thickness: the answer is exactly the same in every case: the boiling point of your ejuice. This is why boiling food is so handy. Boil your parsnips on a big fire or a little fire and they’re always going to take around the same time to cook, because boiling water is around 100c
But that Doesn't shed much light onto How a Coil Wire gets to a given Temperature?
Or Why it does either?
Do you have any suggestions how to do this if you can only use wattage mode? I am allergic to nickel and stainless steel, so I must use kanthal coils.
Do you have any suggestions how to do this if you can only use wattage mode? I am allergic to nickel and stainless steel, so I must use kanthal coils.
Unfortunately there is no temperature control with Kanthal. Only Stainless Steel, Nickel and Titanium if the latter is an option.
There is titanium. It’s got its own issues. It can ONLY be used in TC, and it cannot be dry burned at all. One wick per coil only.Do you have any suggestions how to do this if you can only use wattage mode? I am allergic to nickel and stainless steel, so I must use kanthal coils.
One thing to do with the kanthal is NEVER let your vape run dry. The vape juice acts as a coolant for the coil.
I suppose I could be wrong about that bit. My information was that the reason titanium had issues was that it coated itself with weird fragile oxides that weren’t a problem as long as they were undisturbed. I don’t think they’re even safely cleanable via cold methods (which usually aren’t very good in the first place, though I’ve never owned a pro level ultrasonic cleaner so I guess there could be exceptions). I suppose in theory you could rewick a crusted up coil and keep going, but who really does that? Easier and less nasty to just toss the whole thing.
It does not gunk up as much as regular wire. And you can drop it in alcohol, mix yourself a cocktail while you wait for it to clean.
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