Hello Vapers! Natural vs Synthetic Flavours: Which are Preferred?

[Lannie]

Diketones! That was the word for the "bad stuff" in the flavorings I was looking for up there...

 

[daviedog]

In my life, i always ate the ascorbic acid, not Rose Hips..

 

[suprtrkr]

Interesting point, Rossum. Agreed that natural flavourings cannot compete with synthetics in terms of reproducibility. However, I'm not convinced that toxicological studies give an entirely accurate description of the toxicity of these chemicals over longer time scales (not to mention the fact that there is a MASSIVE variation in individual tolerence to these compounds).

Whilst I am not under the illusion that because something is natural, it might be intrinsically safer, there is something reassuring about the idea that humans have been breathing in essential oils and other plant components (allbeit in much lower concentrations) for thousands of years. The flavour chemicals cooked up in the flavourist's lab have never encountered human lung tissue.

Like you, I tend to find synthetic flavours overpowering - and often not very authentic (i.e. I know that I am tasting something designed to taste like strawberry rather than a strawberry itself). I think it is a very sensible idea to minimise the amounts of flavour components in e-liquids.

In summary, I am leaning just toward the other direction: I want to try to find (or develop my own) e-liquids that don't disappoint in terms of flavour and doesn't rely too much on synthetic flavour chemicals.

Not to hijack here, but I once heard a chemist say there was no such thing as a toxic chemical, only levels of toxicity, which vary per person. That is to say, ingesting a few grams of PU239 can cause serious issues, but a few nanograms would not. Heck, even distilled water can kill you if you drink enough of it, by flushing the electrolytes out of your system. Thus, it seems to me, while general rules can be-- and maybe even should be-- established as guidelines, I think we're not ever going to have solid answers on this predictive of individual behavior. Or am I wrong about that?

 

[Rossum]

The flavour chemicals cooked up in the flavourist's lab have never encountered human lung tissue.

So you're saying those compounds are somehow different than the ones found in natural flavorings?

 

[djsvapour]

Wow.. a thread I don't care about.

Fantastic. Back to James Bond and some IPA.

(and some RY4).

 

[YoursTruli]

This is a good thread in which Kurt, our resident chemist, addresses natural vs synthetic
Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

some highlights

You cannot make this conclusion. Natural extract flavors are often full of diacetyl, which is a naturally occurring compound in diary and some fruits. Plus they can contain a lot of other things I personally would not want to inhale (lipids, proteins, polysaccharides, etc). They cost more because they are more expensive to make than mixing synthetic flavor compounds...or they charge what their market will tolerate, or both.

Plus, the term "natural flavor" does not have the definition most people think. It only means it is a compound that is also found in the food. Isoamyl acetate is a natural banana flavor, but it is synthesized in a lab.

I am a co-author on the Farsalinos DA/AP publication (Kistler). I am also deeply involved with all things chemistry in the e-liquid industry, mostly as a consultant for AEMSA. I can assure you that I know of several companies that do test for DA and AP, and that they have either removed or are in the process of removing these chemicals from their recipes. Some have even developed pure-flavor lines that are verified free of them, as in working with the flavor industry to formulate these flavors.

DA and AP are NOT considered flavor ingredients by the FDA. They are considered adulterants, since they carry a known risk of serious injury or death.

The mechanism of lung damage from DA or AP is not known. We don't know if it is purely a chemical interaction, or, what is being thought now, it triggers an autoimmune response where the body essentially rejects the lung. In many cases of BO followed by lung transplant, the new lung also gets BO and dies, even without further exposure to DA or AP. So it may be a particular biochemistry in a person's body that works with DA to create the disease.

The rat inhalation studies show that not just the lungs are affected, but also mucosa/nasal passages. This is true with AP as well.

Bad news: these are not the only vicinal diketones used in flavorings. There are also hexanediones and heptanediones with vicinal carbonyls, and which also show lung damage in rats.

When asked what the safe amount of DA or AP could be in an e-liquid, all toxicologists that we contacted answered ZERO AMOUNT. NIOSH is for workers that have no choice with exposure if they want to keep their jobs. Defending what is essentially just a luxury flavor in vaping is not the same thing at all. They don't need to be there, there is a known risk, and so they should not be there. I concur with this professional opinion.

The risk of a highly publicized law suit is not worth taking, regardless of its merit or the lack thereof. And companies that I work with simply do not want to sell e-liquids with these compounds, period, end of story. We were blind-sided and horrified when we found out that the term DA-free did not mean that at all in many instances. AT BEST, this meant that consumers were robbed of informed consent. Ideally it should be the flavor companies that do the tests, I agree, but I know of many e-liquid vendors that are doing this themselves so they KNOW the results.

And DA and AP are actually not that easy to test for. The limit of detection and/or quantification should be ideally about 1 ug/mL, but this is hard to create the assay for. Just squirting a bit onto a GC-MS without standard solutions to compare to will tell you they are present, but not accurately how much is present. Accurately measuring relevant levels in e-liquids is VERY hard, since there are a LOT of flavor compounds of similar size to these, and peaks overlap in the flavor matrix. I have seen commercial labs claim they will test these for cheap, but when pushed on their limits of detection do not respond. I have also seen tests from labs stating the compounds are not present, but their LOD is 100 ug/mL or more!

But these compounds are not illegal, and people are free to vape what they like. I mean that. If you want them, have at it. If you don't, you should be able to have the opportunity to buy flavors verified to be free of them. Not just words on a website, which are clearly meaningless, but lab results on finished products. This IS happening right now, and it will continue to increase, I expect. And I would support companies that are doing this. They have spent a LOT of money making sure you are getting products that are as safe as our current understanding allows.

I DIY all of my e-liquids, and I'm a big fan of many of TPA's flavors (that don't use AP) and NicVape's E-Flavors. I'm sure there are other companies out there that are trying to do the right thing, but I tend to find what I like and stick with it. I am also a fan of unflavored or very low flavoring (5% or less, sometimes a lot less). I rarely go above 15W because VG juices tend to not wick as well, and I don't do PG. Or I am not as good as some with my Kayfun coil builds. But that is plenty of wattage for me...and I'm not a fan of thermal decomposition.

As for synthetic flavors, yes, even though I try to eat organic, I think simple synthetic flavors are in general safer for inhalation than a soup of biomolecules extracted from a food. Of course there may still be compounds out there that are not good to inhale, but taking care of the DA and AP problem will go a very long way for us. Now if we can solve the decomposition problem, this will be huge for us. That's a tougher issue, with the huge variety of attys and wattages available now.

[QUOTE="Kurt, post: 16259905, member: 17976"]Each flavor compound used in synthetic flavorings is a known entity with known inhalation safety standards. The vast majority are most likely fine for e-liquids. There are some however that have a bad track record, custard note diketones are just one type, but they seem to be the most dangerous. Meat flavorings can also cause problems, but those are not so popular in vaping.

Whole food extracted flavors, as I said, can have a whole host of biomolecules that the lungs are not good at expelling, and that can be very prone to thermal decomposition.

And decomposition of ANY organic compound, flavors, PG, VG, will create toxic aldehydes and possibly acrolein. And free radicals, which are also toxic. Partial combustion products, generally detected as dry-puff when their concentrations are high enough. If the coil gets too hot, stuff breaks down, and generally into things you don't want to inhale.

BTW, butyric acid is a carboxylic acid, not an ester. "Esters" is a term often used in brewing (incorrectly from a strict chemistry standpoint) to describe certain flavor compounds, including diacetyl, which is also not an ester. Some of these compounds are esters, but many strictly speaking are not, but its an old term in brewing and not likely to change soon.[/QUOTE]

 

[curiouschemist82]

So you're saying those compounds are somehow different than the ones found in natural flavorings?

Of course they are! Flavour chemicals are man-made! Often based on the chemical structure

Not to hijack here, but I once heard a chemist say there was no such thing as a toxic chemical, only levels of toxicity, which vary per person. That is to say, ingesting a few grams of PU239 can cause serious issues, but a few nanograms would not. Heck, even distilled water can kill you if you drink enough of it, by flushing the electrolytes out of your system. Thus, it seems to me, while general rules can be-- and maybe even should be-- established as guidelines, I think we're not ever going to have solid answers on this predictive of individual behavior. Or am I wrong about that?

Wise words Suprtrkr. Anything can be toxic, it's all about the concentration.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Many of the artificial flavorings I cannot tolerate. either due to chemical taste or adverse reactions. Reactions include inflammation and swelling of mouth and totally killing my taste buds for days.
I also cannot tolerate artificial sweetners.
I prefer the natural flavorings but use some chemical ones I can tolerate. I try em and throw em out if I cannot tolerate them. I have learned the early warning signs of non-toleration. Tingly lips is one of the first symptoms.

One thing about artificial flavorings vs natural is that with artificial flavoring if you use too much the flavor can go all wonky. If you use too much natural flavoring it is usually just too strong.

Just an fyi I also have a strong dose of the bitter gene. And typically I use flavorings at about a level reduced by 75% over what other vapers use and like.

 

[curiouschemist82]

So you're saying those compounds are somehow different than the ones found in natural flavorings?

Of course they are! Flavour chemicals are man-made! Often based on the chemical structure of known natural products, but chemists are always inventing new ones; an extra methyl group here, a new ester group there... Most of these modern flavour chemicals have never existed in nature... Until we invented them.

 

[curiouschemist82]

Well, my opinion is that whatever tastes BEST is what I want to use. And that's saying something, because in the rest of my life I'm all about natural. I have cows so I can have fresh milk every day (and cheese and butter and all the rest). We raise our own grass fed beef (because who can afford to BUY that stuff?), I have chickens for eggs (and meat, yes, we eat our chickens sometimes) and none of our animals consume corn (please don't ask - just look up aflatoxin - it's a very long story). I myself have cut MANY things out of my diet in the last 10 years or so. I would have been considered a "health nut," I'm sure, except that I burned through two packs of cigarettes a day. Pretty ironic, huh? Now that's gone, too, and I'm cutting myself a little slack on the flavors, because it's the FLAVORS that are keeping me from smoking. I try to avoid the "bad stuff" (diacetyl and stuff) in the flavors, but you know what? Some of them have it, and in the amounts I'm consuming it, I'm willing to give those flavors a pass. It's still way less than what I was inhaling when I smoked. In a perfect world, I wouldn't include any flavor that contained anything "iffy," but I don't live in a perfect world.

So, really, what I'm saying I guess is that maybe someone who never smoked and who wanted to take up vaping because "it looks cool" (I don't understand that, but whatEVER), they might be concerned about natural v.s. synthetic. Me, not so much. I'm prolly gonna be NO help to you at all, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

~Lannie

Lannie, I am very jealous of your wholesome, natural lifestyle! Sounds great and I'm quite sure that ingesting these flavours (in recommended amounts of course) will do no serious harm. I really do appreciate your honesty and thank you for your contributions. I am with you 100% - for me it is all about taste! I'm just more interested trying to bottle the beautiful, breath-taking fragrances that already exist in nature.

 

[curiouschemist82]

Many of the artificial flavorings I cannot tolerate. either due to chemical taste or adverse reactions. Reactions include inflammation and swelling of mouth and totally killing my taste buds for days.
I also cannot tolerate artificial sweetners.
I prefer the natural flavorings but use some chemical ones I can tolerate. I try em and throw em out if I cannot tolerate them. I have learned the early warning signs of non-toleration. Tingly lips is one of the first symptoms.

One thing about artificial flavorings vs natural is that with artificial flavoring if you use too much the flavor can go all wonky. If you use too much natural flavoring it is usually just too strong.

Just an fyi I also have a strong dose of the bitter gene. And typically I use flavorings at about a level reduced by 75% over what other vapers use and like.

Hi there! Thanks for your reply, man! So... have you ever had any of the intolerance symptoms with the "natural" e liquids? Also, do you have similar problems with food and drinks? (i.e. intolerence to certain flavours or ingredients)

 

[Lannie]

Lannie, I am very jealous of your wholesome, natural lifestyle! Sounds great and I'm quite sure that ingesting these flavours (in recommended amounts of course) will do no serious harm. I really do appreciate your honesty and thank you for your contributions. I am with you 100% - for me it is all about taste! I'm just more interested trying to bottle the beautiful, breath-taking fragrances that already exist in nature.

And to that, I say, "YOU GO!" Right now, I'm still in the beginning stages (only 6 months off cigs), but at some point, I might think that a more "natural" flavor would be better. Who knows? Let us know how your journey progresses. I can remember a time when I wouldn't buy ANYTHING that said "artificial flavors" or colors, because I heard somewhere that all artificial flavors were derived from coal tar (if that's true, please keep that information to yourself! LOL!). So I eschewed them completely, but I find as I get older, some of the things I felt so strongly about in my youth just don't seem to matter so much anymore. I grew up in the 50s and 60s, and if I could survive THAT, I can survive just about anything.

~Lannie

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Hi there! Thanks for your reply, man! So... have you ever had any of the intolerance symptoms with the "natural" e liquids? Also, do you have similar problems with food and drinks? (i.e. intolerence to certain flavours or ingredients)

I have the same issues with all artificial sweetners.
Many foods taste bitter to me that just taste sour to others.
With natural flavorings never an adverse reaction in ejuice.
I was only able to tolerate 2 of about 25 commercial ejuice I tried when I first started vaping. I immediately went to DIY with all natural flavorings and Stevia sweetener.
I have since tried several mainstream mostly artificial flavorings. I wind up throwing out over 50% for compatibility issues.
For example Inawera Shisha Strawberry which most like is just chemical and weak strawberry to me. And I tried concentrations from 1-15%.
I have found NO artificial melon flavorings that taste anything but chemical to me.
However Watermelon from flavorconcentrates.com is nice.
I can tolerate and really like some of the most diketone and A/P infested flavorings.
Capella Vanilla Custard V1 is heavenly at 4-5% combined with 1-2% CAP Vanilla Whipped Cream.

 

[curiouschemist82]

That's interesting! I honestly thought you would have suffered as much with natural juices as with synthetic ones...

Hope you find some good flavours in the future!

 

[curiouschemist82]

This is a good thread in which Kurt, our resident chemist, addresses natural vs synthetic
Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

some highlights





[QUOTE="Kurt, post: 16259905, member: 17976"]Each flavor compound used in synthetic flavorings is a known entity with known inhalation safety standards. The vast majority are most likely fine for e-liquids. There are some however that have a bad track record, custard note diketones are just one type, but they seem to be the most dangerous. Meat flavorings can also cause problems, but those are not so popular in vaping.

Whole food extracted flavors, as I said, can have a whole host of biomolecules that the lungs are not good at expelling, and that can be very prone to thermal decomposition.

And decomposition of ANY organic compound, flavors, PG, VG, will create toxic aldehydes and possibly acrolein. And free radicals, which are also toxic. Partial combustion products, generally detected as dry-puff when their concentrations are high enough. If the coil gets too hot, stuff breaks down, and generally into things you don't want to inhale.

BTW, butyric acid is a carboxylic acid, not an ester. "Esters" is a term often used in brewing (incorrectly from a strict chemistry standpoint) to describe certain flavor compounds, including diacetyl, which is also not an ester. Some of these compounds are esters, but many strictly speaking are not, but its an old term in brewing and not likely to change soon.

[/QUOTE]

Hi YoursTruli! Thanks for the link. Kurt really does seem to know his stuff. I don't work in the flavour industry at all, so his professional opinion will be of great value to me. Cheers!

 

[pluviose]

I am just of the opinion that natural flavours are much more enjoyable than synthetic ones, but I am not convinced that they have TRULY made their way into the vaping market. I know there are hundreds of companies claiming 100% natural ingredients - but they certainly have NOT managed to get 100% of the true flavour in there! This is probably due to technical limitations, but I'd like to see more in the way of 'authentic' flavours (whether natural or synthetic).

Cheers

Sláinte! Glad to see another Irish.

I'm very new to it, 10 weeks roughly (stopped cold turkey on the 16th of Oct.) - so still figuring things out, but it's definitely the topic i'm most interested in.
Guess it'd be somewhat similar to perfumery? It's no comparison between synthetics and the real deal, if you smell something by, say, Duchaufour or Brosius or Andy Tauer and then compare to the rest... (unfortunately the prices are leagues apart too).
I've been reading up here / elsewhere on extracting flavour from tobacco leaves (been growing a few tobacco plants 3 years ago in the polytunnel, so in theory it's doable), but it's been a long time ago that i did anything remotely chemistrical, i'm sure i would screw it up.
I would be absolutely into the naturally extracted thing, esp. if there was an affordable offering.

Black Note is said to be the absolute best - haven't tried them yet, still saving up for an order (they ship from the USA). i think there are a few more natural extracters but quite elusive.

I'm still stuck in the cheapo (€ 3 - 5-ish) range as of now, most of the more 'upmarket' stuff i tasted so far haven't made much impression - maybe just didn't find the right ones yet, mind you there's not a lot of choice in these rural quarters. I don't like the fruity flavours (i love fruit, just not in a vape), and can't stand any of the dessert-y types (esp. those with a buttery / creamy note), and most juices here are like that so it's quite limiting. All the non-tobacco flavours i need to cut with at least ⅔ "natural tobacco" (it's actually a synthetic one by a certain brand, but very nice), or else they are way too overpowering. That way i mixed up a pretty convincing Earl Grey.

If you set out to cook your own, please let us know - i would totally buy into it. Will volunteer as a most willing guinea pig!

 

[curiouschemist82]

Sláinte! Glad to see another Irish.

I'm very new to it, 10 weeks roughly (stopped cold turkey on the 16th of Oct.) - so still figuring things out, but it's definitely the topic i'm most interested in.
Guess it'd be somewhat similar to perfumery? It's no comparison between synthetics and the real deal, if you smell something by, say, Duchaufour or Brosius or Andy Tauer and then compare to the rest... (unfortunately the prices are leagues apart too).
I've been reading up here / elsewhere on extracting flavour from tobacco leaves (been growing a few tobacco plants 3 years ago in the polytunnel, so in theory it's doable), but it's been a long time ago that i did anything remotely chemistrical, i'm sure i would screw it up.
I would be absolutely into the naturally extracted thing, esp. if there was an affordable offering.

Black Note is said to be the absolute best - haven't tried them yet, still saving up for an order (they ship from the USA). i think there are a few more natural extracters but quite elusive.

I'm still stuck in the cheapo (€ 3 - 5-ish) range as of now, most of the more 'upmarket' stuff i tasted so far haven't made much impression - maybe just didn't find the right ones yet, mind you there's not a lot of choice in these rural quarters. I don't like the fruity flavours (i love fruit, just not in a vape), and can't stand any of the dessert-y types (esp. those with a buttery / creamy note), and most juices here are like that so it's quite limiting. All the non-tobacco flavours i need to cut with at least ⅔ "natural tobacco" (it's actually a synthetic one by a certain brand, but very nice), or else they are way too overpowering. That way i mixed up a pretty convincing Earl Grey.

If you set out to cook your own, please let us know - i would totally buy into it. Will volunteer as a most willing guinea pig!

Hey Man! Sláinte!

Firstly, well done for making the switch to vaping. I'm sure your lungs will thank you. Its great that you're interested in extracting your own flavours. I've been dabbling in fragrances and flavours for the past few years (just as a hobby - I'm not in the flavour industry). Hey, if you're going to attempt an extraction yourself, maybe I can help? I suppose you have read about WTA (whole tobacco alkaloid) extracts? Here's someone reviewing WTA e-liquid from America: . They're a little controvertial due to the fact that there are other alkaloids besides nicotine present (I have read about potential side effects, interaction with medications and a high potential for addiction using WTAs so a word of caution there). Otherwise, quite a few good reports aroundI'll do a little reading about it and see if I can offer any advice.

Thanks for your message, man. I may indeed require a guinea pig or two at some point in the near future. I'll keep you posted.

Good Luck, Be Safe (and give us a shout if you have any specific problems of a technical nature)