Help with Nature's Flavors and Virgin Vapor.. SO confused!

[Annieland]

I am trying to figure out which Nature's Flavors variety Virgin Vapor uses in their juices. I have been driving myself crazy for weeks researching and finally pulled the trigger and ordered from Nature's Flavors directly, but I bet I got it all wrong in the end. If VV uses NF, and all VV juices are Organic and Diacetyl-free, and coffee & tea flavoring system is what is recommended for vaping according to various sources, why are there very few of these flavors on the NF site?

Everything vapeable (especially fruits) is either Organic Diacetyl Free Flavor Extracts, Organic Coffee & Tea Flavoring, or Coffee & Tea Flavoring without Diacetyl. If I want organic AND diacetyl-free (mostly to find the same peach or cherry VV uses) which is it?? In the end, I ordered the Flavor Extracts, not the Coffee & Tea flavors, but I'm stressing out that I got it wrong. To be clear, I did not order anything with oil or gum acacia/arabic.

Thank you sooo much! I hope someone has some knowledge that can clarify this to me.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Flavor for Coffee Without Diacetyl

Some of them in the ingredient list will show natural and organic. It's possible that VV is using those and just calling them all organic (IDK). I get that it matters to you that they're organic, but in the end, as far as the eliquid taste, it'll likely not make any difference whether they'e organic/natural or just organic.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Peach Melba Coffee and Tea Flavor without Diacetyl

That one is not listed in the title as organic, but in the Additional Info it says it is. Not all of the flavorings in the Additional Info will say organic, so maybe the Peach Melba is what VV uses. I don't see any Cherry flavoring in the diacetyl-free section, so maybe it was never there to begin with? But, I do wonder if the flavorings that did have it (DA) were reformulated with acetylpropionyl. I called them and they would not say if they replaced one diketone with another, they just kept repeating DA-free -- that didn't leave me feeling like their liquids were diektone-free, just maybe some of them are diacetyl-free.

It is a bit of a mind (bleep) to navigate that site trying to find what's appropriate for vaping.

 

[Annieland]

Thanks so much for your informative reply, Mr.Mann. I'm glad you understand my confusion . Interesting about that Peach Melba one, but it says it contains sugar so I didn't even consider that one. But it does clearly say organic, whereas a lot of the others in that category do not. I definitely don't care if my liquid is organic, I was just trying to solve the mystery of which one VV uses and hopefully not experience much flavor variance. But I believe you that there is no taste difference between "natural" and "organic." I'm really wondering if VV just declares organic when it's one of those mixed ones, but they're so ultra-specific in declaring their stuff so perfectly pure, I don't know.

So now I'm ticked, that after all my going back and forth on what to try, I didn't get the coffee tea flavors. I hope I can still use the flavor extracts I got... maybe I'll get lucky and hit what I'm shooting for.

Thanks again!!

 

[Mr.Mann]

Thanks so much for your informative reply, Mr.Mann. I'm glad you understand my confusion . Interesting about that Peach Melba one, but it says it contains sugar so I didn't even consider that one. But it does clearly say organic, whereas a lot of the others in that category do not. I definitely don't care if my liquid is organic, I was just trying to solve the mystery of which one VV uses and hopefully not experience much flavor variance. But I believe you that there is no taste difference between "natural" and "organic." I'm really wondering if VV just declares organic when it's one of those mixed ones, but they're so ultra-specific in declaring their stuff so perfectly pure, I don't know.

So now I'm ticked, that after all my going back and forth on what to try, I didn't get the coffee tea flavors. I hope I can still use the flavor extracts I got... maybe I'll get lucky and hit what I'm shooting for.

Thanks again!!

It has sugar? I didn't see that part. Oy vey. So many particulars and the absence of one is only partially the battle! Dang! I thought I found one for you.

 

[AB Dada]

I buy Medicine Flower flavor extracts which are pure flavor, no solvents, no alcohol (other than the citrus which has TRACE for real).

So far, all of the flavors match up well to Virgin Vapor.

Remember that your nicotine brand and level can have an effect on flavor, too. Also the amount of distilled you add.

 

[salemgold]

These are what I use but, if you are concerned about diacetyl, you may want to try the other Organic Flavor Extracts

It takes such a tiny amount of flavoring to get good flavor (some less than .5%) that I am not concerned about the tiny amount of diacetyl in my mixes. Totally a personal opinion though.

You can get smaller bottles to try at High Desert Vapes.

Do not use any that have gum acacia or any type of sugars.

https://highdesertvapes.com/categories/DIY/DIY-Flavors/NF-Organic/

 

[Annieland]

I buy Medicine Flower flavor extracts which are pure flavor, no solvents, no alcohol (other than the citrus which has TRACE for real).

So far, all of the flavors match up well to Virgin Vapor.

Remember that your nicotine brand and level can have an effect on flavor, too. Also the amount of distilled you add.

That's really interesting, I didn't know about Medicine Flower. Looking at them, I realize these are probably the ones VV uses for their Absolute line. The variety of flavors adds up. Thankfully, I'm going for the regular line with the alcohol extracts. But this is good info to have if I'm looking for that kind of product. And have that kind of dough! $$$$$

 

[Annieland]

These are what I use but, if you are concerned about diacetyl, you may want to try the other Organic Flavor Extracts

It takes such a tiny amount of flavoring to get good flavor (some less than .5%) that I am not concerned about the tiny amount of diacetyl in my mixes. Totally a personal opinion though.

You can get smaller bottles to try at High Desert Vapes.

Do not use any that have gum acacia or any type of sugars.

https://highdesertvapes.com/categories/DIY/DIY-Flavors/NF-Organic/

Yeah, I looked at the ones highdesertvapes and ecigxpress has before I ordered direct. And I pretty much agree with you about the diacetyl issue. In the end, they didn't have a flavor or two I really wanted, so I figured I'd just order direct and get the diacetyl-free anyway. Looking at the ingredients, it appears ECX sells the coffee & tea line, and HSV sells the flavor extracts (no VG mentioned in the ingredients), so that also puts my mind at ease a bit that maybe the ones I ordered will fit my needs in the end.

Thanks!!

 

[Mr.Mann]

Yeah, I looked at the ones highdesertvapes and ecigxpress has before I ordered direct. And I pretty much agree with you about the diacetyl issue. In the end, they didn't have a flavor or two I really wanted, so I figured I'd just order direct and get the diacetyl-free anyway. Looking at the ingredients, it appears ECX sells the coffee & tea line, and HSV sells the flavor extracts (no VG mentioned in the ingredients), so that also puts my mind at ease a bit that maybe the ones I ordered will fit my needs in the end.

Thanks!!

I just saw where you are from. Nice!

Just curious, are you wanting to say dicaetyl-free or diketone-free? I ask becasue as I mentioned, NF would not confirm or deny that they reformulated their flavors with acetylpropionyl to keep diketones in their flavors but to be able to claim "diacetyl-free". It kinda irked me how they responded to my queries, but I guess they purposely left a lot in between the lines for me to read into. Hey, that can be a form of answering my questions -- I guess.

 

[Annieland]

I just saw where you are from. Nice!

Just curious, are you wanting to say dicaetyl-free or diketone-free? I ask becasue as I mentioned, NF would not confirm or deny that they reformulated their flavors with acetylpropionyl to keep diketones in their flavors but to be able to claim "diacetyl-free". It kinda irked me how they responded to my queries, but I guess they purposely left a lot in between the lines for me to read into. Hey, that can be a form of answering my questions -- I guess.

Oh sorry, Mr.Mann, I missed your message. In all honesty, I don't know all the ins and outs of the chemistry. My DIY experience is minimal. I get what you're saying, and I don't put it past even a good company to be vague to stay out of trouble. I don't even get why there would be diacetyl in a peach flavor but what do I know. I'm just trying to hit on whatever VV uses and since "they" say "diacetyl-free" that's what I was going for. Not that I want to do heavy diacetyl vaping or anything heh. My order from NF just shipped, so here's hoping! Box weighs 4 pounds according to UPS. Hope I don't spill it all.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Oh sorry, Mr.Mann, I missed your message. In all honesty, I don't know all the ins and outs of the chemistry. My DIY experience is minimal. I get what you're saying, and I don't put it past even a good company to be vague to stay out of trouble. I don't even get why there would be diacetyl in a peach flavor but what do I know. I'm just trying to hit on whatever VV uses and since "they" say "diacetyl-free" that's what I was going for. Not that I want to do heavy diacetyl vaping or anything heh. My order from NF just shipped, so here's hoping! Box weighs 4 pounds according to UPS. Hope I don't spill it all.

I get it and you had already made that clear (as to your intentions here), but I got caught up in the whole diacetyl/diketone trip. Part of it is becasue that issue bugs me to no end and I had just last week or so spoken about that issue with NF.

Anyway, please let us know if you found what you are looking for. I imagine there are several people that would like to know if your digging produced gold.

 

[salemgold]

Yeah, I looked at the ones highdesertvapes and ecigxpress has before I ordered direct. And I pretty much agree with you about the diacetyl issue. In the end, they didn't have a flavor or two I really wanted, so I figured I'd just order direct and get the diacetyl-free anyway. Looking at the ingredients, it appears ECX sells the coffee & tea line, and HSV sells the flavor extracts (no VG mentioned in the ingredients), so that also puts my mind at ease a bit that maybe the ones I ordered will fit my needs in the end.

Thanks!!

Exactly right. The coffee bean and tea line has a weird undertaste to me that the extracts do not have. Many people like the coffee and tea line though.

Good luck!

 

[Annieland]

Ok, got my stuff. I am over the moon thrilled with this stuff. To recap, I got the Nature's Flavors Organic Flavor Extracts without Diacetyl. So far I've used the French Vanilla and Peach and they are exactly what I was hoping for to make my favorite VV Vanilla Peach Swirl flavor. The Black Cherry and Marshmallow smell exactly like the VV flavors with those. I also got Coconut (smells sooooo good), Cherry (smells like the cherry in VV Cherry Vanilla Swirl), Vanilla Cream (smells like nothing I recognize), and Peppermint (might be the VV Vanilla Mint, not sure yet).

Problem is, I'm so new, the learning curve here will be steep (ha ha). There isn't a ton of info out there about using NF, and VV recipes or similar. But man, I'm gonna have some fun here. So happy!!! Thank you all!!

Annie

 

[Mr.Mann]

Ok, got my stuff. I am over the moon thrilled with this stuff. To recap, I got the Nature's Flavors Organic Flavor Extracts without Diacetyl. So far I've used the French Vanilla and Peach and they are exactly what I was hoping for to make my favorite VV Vanilla Peach Swirl flavor. The Black Cherry and Marshmallow smell exactly like the VV flavors with those. I also got Coconut (smells sooooo good), Cherry (smells like the cherry in VV Cherry Vanilla Swirl), Vanilla Cream (smells like nothing I recognize), and Peppermint (might be the VV Vanilla Mint, not sure yet).

Problem is, I'm so new, the learning curve here will be steep (ha ha). There isn't a ton of info out there about using NF, and VV recipes or similar. But man, I'm gonna have some fun here. So happy!!! Thank you all!!

Annie

Congrats! Try all the flavors as single personages in standalone mixes. Try something low to high (like 1%,5%,10%) at first to determine strength and preference and then from there start determine which percentage is best to fine tune. [Ex: if 10% is too high but 5% is too low, go for the middle of those.] At least you got what you are looking for. Good job on your choices!!

 

[Racehorse]

If I want organic AND diacetyl-free

A lot of natural flavorings contain naturally-occuring diacetyls/diketones. You can only take that stuff out in lab-created flavorings.(synthetic).

Being an all organic type person myself when possible, this is one area where I prefer non-organic stuff.

 

[Racehorse]

It kinda irked me how they responded to my queries, but I guess they purposely left a lot in between the lines for me to read into. Hey, that can be a form of answering my questions -- I guess.

I don' t think they can really *say*.

There was an email posted from Capella back in 2010 to a vaper here, very honest, and has always made sense to me, where they pointed out that they make their flavorings for food and beverages to be injested, and that there is NOT enough long term data that flavorings, theirs or anyone else's, are ultimately safe for inhalation (long term).

By saying "there is not enough data" means that, even today, there are no long-term studies on vapers (lets say 10+ or 20+ years) for inhalation.

Therefore, there is technically no flavoring company who can say their flavorings are safe for the way vaping uses them........repeated inhalation all day long, over a period of a decade+ or more.

To say otherwise is just a marketing claim.


Having had blood panels come back, that show some "dehydration" for the first time in my life, (I"ve had blood panels taken quite often since I started vaping so that I have a long term record of how things changed....I wanted to have *data* for my own personal research....and I've upped my water drinking substantially since beginning to vape) ------ I am presently more concerned with the hydroscopic effect of PG and VG, and the long term effects that might have on my kidneys.

Bottom line, harm reduction is just that. ..... and as we learned with cigarettes, it took decades for the damage to show up. Therefore, the most honest thing that can be said is that we "think" it is pretty safe, and that we prefer vaping to smoking, but since there are no long term studies, nobody can say for sure.

While we are chasing diacetyl, it may end up being acetyl proprionyl, acetoin and ceertain chemicals that, when combined together, produce ketones. Right now, flavorings are listed as SINGLE ingredient in ejuice.....but we know that there are a lot of "things" in that single ingredient.

Vapers who have moved to unflavored are probably trying to mitigate some of the perceived risks. But that would represent "suffering" to some vapers for sure

 

[slipr]

Annieland, anyone, would the concentrates work as well? what percentages do you have to mix your EXTRACTS to get a workable juice?