high drain batteries vs normal protected.

[Drozd]

just to play devils advocate here... each battery has it's place...there are a ton of factors...
and the AW batteries fit very well into their niche....

a given atty at a given voltage will have a certain amp draw... if that exceeds the max drain rate of the battery it'll be overstressed and not hit as hard because of voltage sag...
further overstressing a battery will cause it's overall life and the number of charges to be less...as well as the battery's ability to hold and store a charge...

so it becomes your choice ...a battery that has a lower between charge runtime but a better overall life and one that can meet the amp draw requirements....or one that lasts longer on it's initial charge and then slowly degrades more and more causing you to charge it more frequently until it won't function anymore....
not to mention that the ones being overstressed are FAR more dangerous in stacked applications....

 

[AlteredLight]

Hi folks,

WitchWay's Hubby here.

I tend to speak in analogy so if I get too abstract, feel free to let me know.

Typically an electric circuit takes more energy to start than to actually run. The circuit of a PV in most cases will draw more peak power (milliamps) than a single battery can produce, however, as the circuit stays connected (the button pushed) the battery will try to meet the demand (strain). Strain shortens performance time.

By putting 2 batteries in series, you do not increase the milliamp hours (maH), but do increase the peak power ability. In short 2 batteries can handle starting the circuit much easier than 1.

Analogy .... If you have a 1 liter pot (a single battery) and a 2 liter pot (2 batteries in series), both filled with water. Using only one of the pot you need to fill a 1.5 liter pot.
Although you can do it with either pot, you can simply pour 1.5 liters out of the 2 liter pot, but you will have to empty the 1 liter pot completely, then extend more effort putting more water into it to complete the job.

Batteries do not not just dump the load and are finished ... they dump recover and dump again until they cannot anymore ... run the battery down on a flashlight until the light is very dim, then let it set a bit and turn it on again.

Anyway, I hope this helps.
I do indeed love the Buzz

 

[AlteredLight]

just to play devils advocate here... each battery has it's place...there are a ton of factors...
and the AW batteries fit very well into their niche....

a given atty at a given voltage will have a certain amp draw... if that exceeds the max drain rate of the battery it'll be overstressed and not hit as hard because of voltage sag...
further overstressing a battery will cause it's overall life and the number of charges to be less...as well as the battery's ability to hold and store a charge...

so it becomes your choice ...a battery that has a lower between charge runtime but a better overall life and one that can meet the amp draw requirements....or one that lasts longer on it's initial charge and then slowly degrades more and more causing you to charge it more frequently until it won't function anymore....
not to mention that the ones being overstressed are FAR more dangerous in stacked applications....

Indeed it is all about stress ...

One thing that I have found peculiar is the reliance on the term volt when amps do the work or in this case milliamps. However, I don't see any amp ratings on the batteries powering my PV either weird. All in all, it is a mixing of apples and oranges of a sort.

 

[Drozd]

Indeed it is all about stress ...

One thing that I have found peculiar is the reliance on the term volt when amps do the work or in this case milliamps. However, I don't see any amp ratings on the batteries powering my PV either weird. All in all, it is a mixing of apples and oranges of a sort.

right...but isn't the amp draw the voltage divided by the resistance...

so for example lets say we have a 1.5Ω low resistance atty...and operating that at 3.7V...it would ideally be an amp draw of 2.47A or so?...

and then the max drain rate of the batteries ...the mAh rating of the battery times it's C rate divided by 1000...
so say the 16340 batteries would come down to the UF being < 1.32A.... the AW being < 1.50A....and the AW IMR high drain being <4.4A ?

therefore the amount of strain put on the batteries would be the reverse...high drain least stressed, then the AW, then the UF most stressed

yeah it's going to be pulsed instead of a continuous drain...but when you figure the art of the PCB that helps control discharge is rated in milliseconds (why some batteries arent recomended for incandecent lamps) and us holding down the button for 3-10 seconds in a go...it's not exactly a fast pulse either...

 

[WitchWay]

just to play devils advocate here... each battery has it's place...there are a ton of factors...
and the AW batteries fit very well into their niche....

a given atty at a given voltage will have a certain amp draw... if that exceeds the max drain rate of the battery it'll be overstressed and not hit as hard because of voltage sag...
further overstressing a battery will cause it's overall life and the number of charges to be less...as well as the battery's ability to hold and store a charge...

so it becomes your choice ...a battery that has a lower between charge runtime but a better overall life and one that can meet the amp draw requirements....or one that lasts longer on it's initial charge and then slowly degrades more and more causing you to charge it more frequently until it won't function anymore....
not to mention that the ones being overstressed are FAR more dangerous in stacked applications....

A few months ago, Drozd very kindly did the math and showed me why my batteries only last a few hours on the Chameleon. Of course it's how I use them that cause this and I do understand and accept it. I can also vouch for the Li-Ions not taking the abuse as well as the LiMNs do. I had a UltraFire battery that only lasted 2 months use, then had to be replaced. It still held a full charge, but no longer had the amps necessary to power an atty. Had that been a AW LiMN battery it would probably still be in use. However I do elect to use the UltraFire batteries because of the longer run times and the fact I only paid $2.40 each including shipping for them. Hubby inherited the AW batteries and happily uses them in his Buzz.


Happy Vaping!!!

 

[Quick1]

I remember we had this discussion in another thread, I don't remember the guy's name but I think he was wrong when he said the mAh isn't doubled. If he wasn't wrong, how else can you explain 2 16340 batteries lasting longer than 1?

Ok, I'll give this a shot. It's probably going to be generally correct but maybe not specifically correct

mAh: milliAmps per hour. When used as a capacity rating it's 1 hour. The capacity is determined by what it takes to drain (or down to the minimum rated voltage) the fully charged battery in 1 hour. If you draw 500 milliAmps for 1 hour and it drains the battery then the capacity rating would be 500 mAh. That does NOT mean that the battery is only rated to supply a maximum current of 500 mA (<- notice the absence of the "h". That's an instantaneous measurement).

mA (or A) - milliAmps or Amps: a measure of current (draw). A battery will have a max discharge current rating. This is the maximum (continuous) current that the battery is rated to deliver. If it's a protected battery the protection circuit should disconnect the battery internally just above this. If it's not a protected battery then it's likely to overheat and it will "stress" the battery drawing a current for any length of time over the max.

volts: a measure of "potential". Let's just say volts... When one refers to a 3.7v Li-Ion battery the "3.7" is the nominal voltage. That's A fully charged "3.7v" Li-Ion battery will measure at 4.23v. Completely discharged it will be around 2.7v. For our purposes you notice the drop in performance about 3.5v. If it's a protected battery the protection will disconnect the battery internally somewhere above the minimum voltage. If it's not protected you can continue to draw the battery down to where it's ruined and it will not recharge again.

If you hook 2 cells/batteries in series -- positive to negative. You will double the voltage. Given the same circuit (resistance) you will also double the current. You would expect both batteries (at twice the voltage and therefore twice the current) to last the same amount of time as one battery (at 1/2 the voltage and therefore 1/2 the current).

If you hook 2 cells/batteries in parallel || positive to positive. You will double the capacity. The voltage will remain the same and therefore the current through the same circuit will remain the same but you will have twice the capacity. You can add the mAh of each battery.

Now for the high discharge rate batteries.
Ohm's law: Voltage = Current x Resistance
Or rearranged for our purposes: Current = Voltage/Resistance

Let's say you're using a 3.0 ohm (resistance) atomizer.
Let's say we ignore internal resistance of the device/mod/battery/ etc.
If your single cell Li-Ion battey is pretty much charged up it's going to be at ~4v
That means that your pv circuit will draw ~ 1.33 Amps.
Ohm's law is the *law*. If your battery cannot deliver the current then one of the other variables must change to compensate. Your atomizer is a piece of wire and it's resistance is pretty much fixed. That leaves the voltage which is going to drop in order to satisify the equation.

Remember the max discharge rate above? In our example, if the batteries max discharge rate is less than 1.33 amps a number of things might happen. The battery may still deliver the current but overheat in doing so (and not be able to deliver that current continuously). I think as the battery overheats it also increases internal resistance resulting in a voltage drop. In any event you may see a voltage drop at the atomizer.

So IF your battery isn't delivering the current you would get "better" performance from a high drain battery that could comfortably deilver the "requested" current. NOTE: this really isn't related to how long the battery lasts or capacity (mAh). It's strictly "how much current can the battery deliver at a given moment".

It would be very very cool/useful if the voltage adapter was more like a breakout box where one could measure the voltage under load with the atomizer connected. If it was a regular adapter with wires coming out of it. Then you could easily answer all these question without guessing. If you set a voltage and then it drops significantly when firing the atomizer you would know that your battery isn't delivering the goods and a battery with a higher max discharge rate might be called for.

If the battery can deliver the current under load then you would not see any performance difference using a high drain/ high max discharge rate battery.

disclaimer: all the above is "kind of sort of"

 

[AlteredLight]

right...but isn't the amp draw the voltage divided by the resistance...

so for example lets say we have a 1.5Ω low resistance atty...and operating that at 3.7V...it would ideally be an amp draw of 2.47A or so?...

and then the max drain rate of the batteries ...the mAh rating of the battery times it's C rate divided by 1000...
so say the 16340 batteries would come down to the UF being < 1.32A.... the AW being < 1.50A....and the AW IMR high drain being <4.4A ?

therefore the amount of strain put on the batteries would be the reverse...high drain least stressed, then the AW, then the UF most stressed

yeah it's going to be pulsed instead of a continuous drain...but when you figure the art of the PCB that helps control discharge is rated in milliseconds (why some batteries arent recomended for incandecent lamps) and us holding down the button for 3-10 seconds in a go...it's not exactly a fast pulse either...

Yes. In summary the system here wants 2.47 amps. The UF and AW batteries deliver (according to the math) far less than that so they will deliver the primary load and the try to fill the rest of the demand as fast as they can recover (strain on the battery). On the other hand the High Drain delivering 4.4 excedes the demand of the system and singly it should live longer than the other 2.

If you stack any of the batteries though, the system should be satisfied in all sets and not strain the batteries just barely by the UF set it would seem.

The lack of stress on the batteries will let the batteries live longer

My comment refering to amps not being listed on the batteries is that it is somewhat confusing to the layman as in the items labeled are volts and milliamp hours which have a bit of math between them. Whereas, milliamps are directly related to milliamp hours

 

[Drozd]

adding to this

mAh: milliAmps per hour. When used as a capacity rating it's 1 hour. The capacity is determined by what it takes to drain (or down to the minimum rated voltage) the fully charged battery in 1 hour. If you draw 500 milliAmps for 1 hour and it drains the battery then the capacity rating would be 500 mAh. That does NOT mean that the battery is only rated to supply a maximum current of 500 mA (<- notice the absence of the "h". That's an instantaneous measurement).
the battery also has a C rating and they vary from brand to brand (assumed to be 1C unless otherwise noted, *fires are 1.5C, AW ICR are 2C, AW high drains are (6.66C for 14500, 8C for 16340, 10C for 18650 (and 16340 3V LiFePo4), and tenergy just rates theirs for <550mA).... max drain rate for a battery is mAh * C rating /1000 and that 1 hour (60 min is also divided by the C rating)

mA (or A) - milliAmps or Amps: a measure of current (draw). A battery will have a max discharge current rating. This is the maximum (continuous) current that the battery is rated to deliver. If it's a protected battery the protection circuit should disconnect the battery internally just above this. If it's not a protected battery then it's likely to overheat and it will "stress" the battery drawing a current for any length of time over the max.

even protected batteries opperating at or near or slightly above their max drain rating will be "stressed"

So IF your battery isn't delivering the current you would get "better" performance from a high drain battery that could comfortably deilver the "requested" current. NOTE: this really isn't related to how long the battery lasts or capacity (mAh). It's strictly "how much current can the battery deliver at a given moment".

it IS somewhat related... you can take the amp draw and divide that by the mAh rating of the battery to figure the C rating that the battery is being drained....then divide 60 minutes by that C rating and it'll give you roughly how many minutes the battery would last...divide that by 60 and you get seconds...if you divide that by the average length of your button press you get a rough estimate of how many button presses you should get out of your battery...

 

[AlteredLight]

After skimming Quick's post ...

I personally think of voltage as the medium or carrier and amperage as the substance inside...

voltage is a potential measurement even voltage under load is a potential measurement of what is left after you take some away.

amperage is a fluid measurement telling you what you are using at an instant.

 

[Quick1]

adding to this


it IS somewhat related... you can take the amp draw and divide that by the mAh rating of the battery to figure the C rating that the battery is being drained....then divide 60 minutes by that C rating and it'll give you roughly how many minutes the battery would last...divide that by 60 and you get seconds...if you divide that by the average length of your button press you get a rough estimate of how many button presses you should get out of your battery...

Most people are, effectively, talking about wattage when they say "performance" and not capacity.

"Will I get better performance if I use a 'high drain' battery?"
You can translate that to "Will I get a better vape" or "Will I get a stronger vape/more vapor". Generally nothing to do with capacity/battery life/number of button presses.

 

[Drozd]

If you stack any of the batteries though, the system should be satisfied in all sets and not strain the batteries just barely by the UF set it would seem.

The lack of stress on the batteries will let the batteries live longer

ahhh..... but stacking them would change the voltage...and you'd be likely to blow the 1.5Ω atty...so you'd have to change to an atty of different resistance...which of course would change your amp draw..which would start the whole mess all over again


now if you ran them in parallel that's a different story ....well mostly... it'd be close figuring that you can double the mAh...but the C rating stays the same you're still looking at a max drain rate of about 2.64A on the UF...and 3A on the AW ...with the amp draw still being around 2.47A...the UF is close...I'd still like more wiggle room to make sure they arent stressed considering we're using nominal voltage versus peak voltage (because Amp draw at the battery's peak voltage would be 2.8A (again above the UF)...though it would quickly drop)

 

[Drozd]

Most people are, effectively, talking about wattage when they say "performance" and not capacity.

"Will I get better performance if I use a 'high drain' battery?"
You can translate that to "Will I get a better vape" or "Will I get a stronger vape/more vapor". Generally nothing to do with capacity/battery life/number of button presses.

ahh.... see I read performance as a combination of cycle life (in terms of # of recharges), wattage, a balance of max drain versus amp draw, and life between charges as well as battery chemistry and quality of protection ... the balance of all of those is how I rate overall performance...

 

[WitchWay]

So let me see if I get this straight...
LiMN batteries in the Buzz will not give as many hours per use, but will have longer overall life span and are more safe as they are less stressed when used heavily.

The UFs will give longer run time per use, are a little stressed, but not dangerously so and therefore have a shorter life span.

In single application, the UFs are very stressed which shortens their life span even more. The LiMNs are not stressed at all, but have shorter per use run time.

Do I have the basics right? And I think I understand the reason batteries in series last longer than the same battery in single use, but still a bit fuzzy on that one.


Thanks guys for all the explanations and technical data!!

 

[AlteredLight]

ahhh..... but stacking them would change the voltage...and you'd be likely to blow the 1.5Ω atty...so you'd have to change to an atty of different resistance...which of course would change your amp draw..which would start the whole mess all over again


now if you ran them in parallel that's a different story ....well mostly... it'd be close figuring that you can double the mAh...but the C rating stays the same you're still looking at a max drain rate of about 2.64A on the UF...and 3A on the AW ...with the amp draw still being around 2.47A...the UF is close...I'd still like more wiggle room to make sure they arent stressed considering we're using nominal voltage versus peak voltage (because Amp draw at the battery's peak voltage would be 2.8A (again above the UF)...though it would quickly drop)

I suppose I forgot to translate though into type there

Thinking along the lines of using the Buzz and it's varivoltage with stacked batteries and tuned as comparible as posssible to a single battery device such as the chameleon or sparkplug for sake of comparison and system demand.

2 batteries allow for more peak amperage at a similar voltage allowed by the varivolt Buzz

In summary, 2 batteries on the Buzz set mid to low range should last longer than 1 battery of the same make and model in a single battery PV pulling everything it can provide and more. Because or the issue of meeting peak demand.

Also, as the user increases the demand by opening the voltage valve, the batteries will start to feel the stress.

One thing to keep in mind and I think it has been prviously mentioned ... there are quite a lot of variables effecting an electrical system from grade of materials manufacture to the humidity in the proximity of the circuit so there is no cut and dried answer. Electricity works on curves

I have tuned my Buzz to 3.45 v using a 2.0 ohm 901 atomizer, but my vaping style is nnot high stress anyway, so all I can talk about is theory

 

[AlteredLight]

So let me see if I get this straight...
LiMN batteries in the Buzz will not give as many hours per use, but will have longer overall life span and are more safe as they are less stressed when used heavily.

The UFs will give longer run time per use, are a little stressed, but not dangerously so and therefore have a shorter life span.

In single application, the UFs are very stressed which shortens their life span even more. The LiMNs are not stressed at all, but have shorter per use run time.

Do I have the basics right? And I think I understand the reason batteries in series last longer than the same battery in single use, but still a bit fuzzy on that one.


Thanks guys for all the explanations and technical data!!

Yeah, pretty good

 

[Quick1]

ahh.... see I read performance as a combination of cycle life (in terms of # of recharges), wattage, a balance of max drain versus amp draw, and life between charges as well as battery chemistry and quality of protection ... the balance of all of those is how I rate overall performance...

...but you're weird... (j/k)

The "danger" thing should be clarified.

I don't believe there is anything more safe than a Protected battery. Regardless of whether it's capable/suitable to the task or not. Assuming the protection circuit is not what would amount to a fraud it will:
1) disconnect if there is a short circuit.
2) disconnect if you try to draw too much current.
3) disconnect before it can be overcharged (charged too long)
4) disconnect before it can be overcharged (charged too fast)
5) disconnect before it can be undercharged.
In addition, super quality protected batteries like AWs have failsafes like:
6) disconnect if the temperature goes too high
7) disconnect if the internal pressure goes too high

We've never heard of a protection circuit failing to operate (although I suppose that's a possibility)
One of the main features I like about protection circuits is that I just use my batteries untill they cut off. If I'm doing beers or bloody marys on the golf course or if I activate the thing by sitting on it when the batteries are low I don't have to worry about ruining my batteries by undercharging them.

The worst I'm likely to do with a protected battery is run it close to it's max ratings or over stress it and reduce it's longevity in # of recharge cycles. So it might go from 1000 to 700? or 500 to 300?

With the high drain (high max discharge rate) batteries, one might never stress them in our application but there is a real chance of a short circuit. Nick the plastic casing getting them in or out of those tight chargers, have the atomizer short instead of just having the coil burn out. Unlikely, but the result could be very dramatic. The batteries are not protected and capable of delivering 6 amps under normal operation. Maybe 10 amps if you over stressed them? The likely failure case for a short would be that the spring would melt in the PV. If that didn't break the circuit then you could probably turn your metal PV glowing red or possibly even melt it. It could be uncomfortable at best.

"Safe" chemistry means that it won't catch fire (with flames) and explode. It doesn't mean that it won't vent gasses and/or molten liquid. I prefer protected batteries even though they incorporate "unsafe" chemistry.

 

[Drozd]

...but you're weird... (j/k)

The "danger" thing should be clarified.

I don't believe there is anything more safe than a Protected battery. Regardless of whether it's capable/suitable to the task or not. Assuming the protection circuit is not what would amount to a fraud it will:
1) disconnect if there is a short circuit.
2) disconnect if you try to draw too much current.
this can be a problem as well running certain batteries at certain voltages with certain atties
3) disconnect before it can be overcharged (charged too long)
4) disconnect before it can be overcharged (charged too fast)
5) disconnect before it can be undercharged.
In addition, super quality protected batteries like AWs have failsafes like:
6) disconnect if the temperature goes too high
7) disconnect if the internal pressure goes too high

the LiMN high drain have these failsafes as well

We've never heard of a protection circuit failing to operate (although I suppose that's a possibility)

actually there has been cases of this ...seen stories of this on CPF...usually it's the charger or static electricity that shorts the PCB...and there's actually no way to tell from looking at it...at that point it's really an unprotected Li-Ion

One of the main features I like about protection circuits is that I just use my batteries untill they cut off. If I'm doing beers or bloody marys on the golf course or if I activate the thing by sitting on it when the batteries are low I don't have to worry about ruining my batteries by undercharging them.

The worst I'm likely to do with a protected battery is run it close to it's max ratings or over stress it and reduce it's longevity in # of recharge cycles. So it might go from 1000 to 700? or 500 to 300?

With the high drain (high max discharge rate) batteries, one might never stress them in our application but there is a real chance of a short circuit. Nick the plastic casing getting them in or out of those tight chargers, have the atomizer short instead of just having the coil burn out. Unlikely, but the result could be very dramatic. The batteries are not protected and capable of delivering 6 amps under normal operation. Maybe 10 amps if you over stressed them? The likely failure case for a short would be that the spring would melt in the PV. If that didn't break the circuit then you could probably turn your metal PV glowing red or possibly even melt it. It could be uncomfortable at best.

Like you said the failsafes would also likely kick in here....but yeah anywhere from 4A (14500) to 4.4A (16340) to 16A (18650).... yes would likely melt a spring....but also remember that in the case of a short they're going to fully discharge in a very short ammount of time (like 7.5 minutes for the 16340 and 6 minutes for the 18650)...and doesn't become unstable til past about 480F and the mechanical failsafe fuse is at about 195F

"Safe" chemistry means that it won't catch fire (with flames) and explode. It doesn't mean that it won't vent gasses and/or molten liquid. I prefer protected batteries even though they incorporate "unsafe" chemistry.

again I take everything into consideration...turns out for my choice it's regular protected Li-Ions for 18650 size, LiFePo4 for 6V in the 16340 size, and LiMN for 3.7V (14500 and single 16340 size) and stacked aplications for 7.4V...but thats a decision everyone has to make for themself and what they're comfortable with

 

[Quick1]

again I take everything into consideration...turns out for my choice it's regular protected Li-Ions for 18650 size, LiFePo4 for 6V in the 16340 size, and LiMN for 3.7V (14500 and single 16340 size) and stacked aplications for 7.4V...but thats a decision everyone has to make for themself and what they're comfortable with

The LiFePo4s. The Tenergy's are rated for a max discharge rate <550mA?

 

[Drozd]

The LiFePo4s. The Tenergy's are rated for a max discharge rate <550mA?

yeah,they are...the tenergy's that is ....but the AW 3V 16340 LiFePo4 have a 10C discharge rating on them so they're like 5A....

 

[mrjaguar]

ok, I've ordered another set of trustfire, but these are white, a set of spiderfire and a set of black n flame trustfire. this should give me something to play with for a while, maybe I'll sell all the GTL's or something.. I've got like 6 or 7 sets