High drain batteries?

[the_vape_nerd]

So I just bought a Sigeli T-max. I'm using some Tenergy 18650s in the thing. These are protected batteries that actually came with the Legacy kit I ordered a while back. If you don't already know, the Legacy is a fixed 3.7 full mechanical.

On the T-max, I've noticed the box is a bit warm if I chain vape.

I've never really understood the whole high drain concept and the protected stuff either.

Are high drain batteries the optimal battery for VV devices?

Is a high drain battery ever also a protected battery? Can you for example buy a high drain, protected 18650?

Does high drain mean that the power is discharged more efficiently or faster?

All help appreciated.

 

[muzichead]

High drain batteries are made of a safer chemistry than protected batteries. In my 2+yrs of vaping, I have yet to hear or read about any type of failure from a safer chemistry battery. They are designed to vent only in the event of failure and not become a projectile like a protected battery has in the past. There have been a few instances from protected batteries though I would say it was probably more user error in those instances though. You are correct in that they discharge more efficiently throughout the charge of the battery. They are made to handle higher amp loads as well. Battery technology has come a long way in a few years. AW IMR, Panasonic, MNKE, and Efest all make batteries that will handle 10amps or higher. If you are having a heat problem with the protected batteries you are using, you should definitely change over to a safer chemistry battery. You might also want to look at what is on top of your T-max also. That could be where part of your problem lies also. You could have a short in the connection. The T-max is still such a new device and a lot has yet to be learned about the device. You may or may not have noticed, that most manufacturers and vendors actually recommend the use of AW IMR batteries in APV's such as Provari, Super-T and REO's...

 

[Gr8Scott]

Thanks for presenting this question

I think a list of common batteries and their classifications would be one heck of a sticky. Formatted like:

Mfg Name--------Model--------- High Drain Y/N----IMR Chemistry Y/N

Panasonic.....CGNCGX6432781..............Y.........................................N


Of course, also not knowing here, perhaps High Drain and IMR Chemistry might be redundant, but whatever. At least the data is there.

Sure would be nice

 

[Dougiestyle]

APVs that use boost circuits require batteries that provide higher discharge or high drain. These circuits use higher amps to produce voltage that is higher than the battery's voltage.

APVs that use step-down regulators and require more than one battery in series generally do not need high drain batteries, as the circuit "dumbs-down" the higher voltage to the user's setting.

Some people with mechanical APVs prefer high drain batteries, as the energy to power lower resistance coils is not hindered by a protection circuit.

Most protection circuits regulate a battery's output to 2-2.5A. Some coils being built may require 3A+, so you can see that a protected battery would not function with these lower resistance drains.

I hope this helps.

FWIW all my single cells are high drain and all my batteries that are used in series are protected.

 

[Gr8Scott]

APVs that use boost circuits require batteries that provide higher discharge or high drain. These circuits use higher amps to produce voltage that is higher than the battery's voltage.

APVs that use step-down regulators and require more than one battery in series generally do not need high drain batteries, as the circuit "dumbs-down" the higher voltage to the user's setting.

Some people with mechanical APVs prefer high drain batteries, as the energy to power lower resistance coils is not hindered by a protection circuit.

Most protection circuits regulate a battery's output to 2-2.5A. Some coils being built may require 3A+, so you can see that a protected battery would not function with these lower resistance drains.

I hope this helps.

FWIW all my single cells are high drain and all my batteries that are used in series are protected.

See, now this is the type of valuable knowledge we need.

What kind of a coil would require more than 3A+, for instance? Would this be based on the hi/lo of the resistance of the particular coil you make, I assume?

Thanks, much, by the way

 

[Dougiestyle]

Dual/triple/quadruple coils aren't uncommon. These draw more current, but can register lower resistance.

 

[Throttles]

I don't know how to make it sound any simpler then what Dougiestyle said...well done sir.

Personally I only use the Panny CGR18650CH in both my VV/VW and mech....and have no problems ( other then I stupidly bought button tops and the CVI doesn't like close flush with them)

 

[madstabber]

The panasonic cgr18650ch batteries are the best batteries for vaping. They can handle anything you throw at them and they last longer than any other battery.

 

[Baditude]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provape/334831-technical-why-high-drain-batteries.html

You should use only a brand name (AW, Panasonic, Efest) IMR high drain battery in variable voltage/wattage mods. ICR or protected batteries are not designed to put out the higher amps the boost circuits demand on them, and run the risk of venting or worse.

 

[Ryedan]

Dual/triple/quadruple coils aren't uncommon. These draw more current, but can register lower resistance.

These for sure and my 0.7 ohm single coil draws about 5.5 amps with a fresh battery. Once I've used up the top of the charge and no load volts go down to about 3.9 it draws more like 5 amps and that is a great vape with the right juice, wick and coil.

 

[Gr8Scott]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provape/334831-technical-why-high-drain-batteries.html

You should use only a brand name (AW, Panasonic, Efest) IMR high drain battery in variable voltage/wattage mods. ICR or protected batteries are not designed to put out the higher amps the boost circuits demand on them, and run the risk of venting or worse.

Wow, that is technical.

I have got to wrap my head around the math.

Until then, I am just going to stick to my little 2250mAh Panny CGR18650CH. And maybe some more Unpros in the Panasonic variety. And manually monitoring the voltage with a volt meter frequently, as I have been told that this is where the problems occur. That is, if you let your batteries go too low then put them on the charger, bad things can happen.

I just wish I could get some input regarding my Sanyo UR18650ZTs. They are 2600/2800mAh unprotected.

 

[Ryedan]

Gr8Scott, running your batteries too low is not AFAIK dangerous, it will just lower your battery life and if you take them too low they may not be recoverable. If I've got this wrong, someone please correct me! I'm running a K100 and I've occasionally taken them down to 3.2/3.1 volts no-load by mistake - way lower than the 3.6/3.5 I was aiming for.

Over-charging batteries past about 4.3 volts becomes dangerous. Discharging batteries too fast, so too many amps drawn, becomes dangerous. I know that running batteries at elevated temps is not good for them, but I don't know about danger there. Cold temps will rob capacity, but is not dangerous.

What info are you after on the UR18650ZTs? I think these are unprotected ICR's, so don't use them for vaping.

 

[qorax]

The panasonic cgr18650ch batteries are the best batteries for vaping. They can handle anything you throw at them and they last longer than any other battery.

Even for a Mech.Mod?

 

[hazarada]

imr, imc, ncr, nrt - does anybody know what those actually stand for? i mean sure some are high drain and others low drain and bla bla but the letters must have a meaning. As long as i dont know what they mean i'll refrain from mentioning them.

Battery chemistries are much more clear, the commonly available li-ion chemistries are
LiCoO2 or lithium cobalt - the most common rechargeable lithium battery also has the crappiest drain characteristics (1-2c)
LiMn2O4 or LiMn - the most common high drain(10c) lithium battery
LiFePO4 - not so common, you mostly see it in RC cars and such, lower regular voltage(3.3v), super high drain (35c)

the C is a value in relation to battery capacity that determines the max current you can drain from it without damaging the battery so for instance 2000mAh * 2C = 4000mA or 4 amps
aside from damage, higher C value also avoids large Vdrops while under load and makes the battery have larger relative capacity under high loads.

the largest 18650, even though based on lico can still run vv and low ohm mech mods simply due to their capacity, for instance the 3400mAh efest can do 6.8 amps which is 25w

 

[generic mutant]

One way to think of it is through the decision theory principle of minimax, or minimising your maximum losses.

Minimax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A protected, high drain, safe chemistry battery might be ideal, but if we can't get hold of them yet we choose between

1) Protected, low drain, less safe chemistry, or
2) Unprotected, high drain, safe chemistry.

2) will vent hot gas when it goes runaway. 1) should fail less often for certain failure causes because of the protection, but when it does, because of its chemistry, it can explode. Even if the risk of failure is higher with 2) (and it isn't clear that it is - high drain also protects against failure), the risk of explosion - the worst case scenario - is effectively nil.

Minimax doesn't apply to everything (von Neumann apparently famously used it to argue that the Americans should launch a preemptive nuclear war against the Soviets: cooler heads prevailed...), but when you're dealing with an electric thing which can explode when you suck on it I'd say it's certainly worth thinking about.

 

[tc1]

Gr8Scott, running your batteries too low is not AFAIK dangerous, it will just lower your battery life and if you take them too low they may not be recoverable. If I've got this wrong, someone please correct me! I'm running a K100 and I've occasionally taken them down to 3.2/3.1 volts no-load by mistake - way lower than the 3.6/3.5 I was aiming for.

Over-charging batteries past about 4.3 volts becomes dangerous. Discharging batteries too fast, so too many amps drawn, becomes dangerous. I know that running batteries at elevated temps is not good for them, but I don't know about danger there. Cold temps will rob capacity, but is not dangerous.

What info are you after on the UR18650ZTs? I think these are unprotected ICR's, so don't use them for vaping.

The maximum discharge voltage for most IMR/Hybrid batteries these days is 2.5-2.8 volts. Running your battery down to 3.1 probably didn't cause any irreversible cell damage.

 

[madstabber]

Even for a Mech.Mod?

I don't know that much about mech's because I don't use them, but from my understanding you need protected batteries for mech's. I think panasonic makes that same model with protection or you should probably use a safety fuse. Someone with more knowledge should probably chime in though as I have no experience with mechanical mods.

 

[tc1]

Non-protected IMR/Hybrids works just fine in mechs ... just make sure your battery is rated at the amps you are drawing from your atomizer.

 

[Baditude]

Non-protected IMR/Hybrids works just fine in mechs ... just make sure your battery is rated at the amps you are drawing from your atomizer.

I feel much safer using IMR batteries in my mech mods.

 

[qorax]

I feel much safer using IMR batteries in my mech mods.

Went ahead and ordered few of THESE for my mechies. Hope they fit the bill!