How can coils affect ejuice and nic intake?

[Spizzel]

So I've been vaping for a little over a year but and have recently delved into the world of rda's and coil building. I found out a good build that has seemingly worked great for me and have stuck with that particular build for a long time. I finally decided to try a new build today and after a few mins of vaping I got super nic sick!

I'm trying to better understand how these two builds that ohm out the same, and using the same juice had such a differing affect on me. Apologies if this is a noob question, I was just under the assumption that these two builds that seemed rather similar, one just had a smaller ID and thinner wire, would have such a dramatic affect on nic in the same juice (6mg btw).

Good Build:
dual coil, 26g, 6 wraps, ID 2.5mm came out to usually .4 ohms

Nic Sick Build:
dual coil 28g, 6 wraps, ID 2mm came out to about .3 ohms

 

[R2sojr]

More heat = More vapor = more nic from the hit? Im probably wrong though..lol

 

[Mike 586]

You never mentioned power settings or if it was on a mech.

There's just no way to get more vapor/nic out of the #28 build over the #26 build without overpowering it pretty heavily. 13W for the #28 build and 32W for the #26 build is right in the ball park to heat the coils to roughly the same temperatures. As a rule of thumb, every step down to the next even gauge size i.e. 28 to 26 to 24 and so on, the watts per ohm requirements double.

I suggest you use the Steam Engine Coil Wrapping page. Just pick your wire size, diameter and pay attention to the heat flux to figure out how much power your build needs to get you in the ball park. If you're building on a mech, then build it to vape just right at about 3.9V and check the resistance against the ohm's law calculator. Doing a build that way for a mech, it starts out slightly overpowered for the first little while, as the battery drains it hits the sweet spot, then as it falls from the sweet spot its time to change the battery.

With #28 the sweet spot (regulated) on a 2.5mm bit would be around 8 or 9 wraps and ohm out to around 1.5 to 1.7 ohms per coil (.75 to .85 final) and you could hit that build with 30W all day long for a satisfying vape. If you're building on an unregulated device, then I'd just go about 5 or 6 wraps on a 2.5mm bit.

 

[roxynoodle]

I'm wondering why your 28g build is 0.3 ohm. I think that one should have been about 0.5 ohm. Something might be wrong with that build.

 

[coilburner]

well .3 and .4 isn't "ohming out the same". where you using the same watts with each one?
BTW your numbers don't compute when plugging them in to the steam engine calculator. Are you using kanthal?

 

[Ryedan]

I'm trying to better understand how these two builds that ohm out the same, and using the same juice had such a differing affect on me.

0.4 ohms on a mech mod will produce around 36 watts while 0.3 ohms will give you around 46 watts. You'll get almost 1/4 more vapor with the 0.3 ohm build and that translates to almost 1/4 more nic with the same juice.

If OTOH you're using a regulated mod we need to know what watts you set for each build.

I'm wondering why your 28g build is 0.3 ohm. I think that one should have been about 0.5 ohm. Something might be wrong with that build.

Yup, this doesn't compute. Have another look at what you built Spizzel. Something is wrong here.

 

[Spizzel]

Sorry for late reply, to answer some of the questions it's a regulated box mod running at 40w. As for the nic sick build I did notice that my ohms changed from .5 to .3. I built on my ohm reader and it was at .5, but fluctuating a lot. I then checked my connections and tightened my grubs down more and it went to .3 and just stayed there so I thought I was good.

I wasn't really building to hit a targert, more so just trying a build that I figured would put me in the ballpark and I would try it out. I should of recognized something was off when I went from .5 to .3...

 

[sparkky1]

The whole premise behind building different coils is to allow your device to maximize performance in wicking / flavor / density / warmth of your juice, there is no one better than the other besides the one that creates better satisfaction for you.
My suggestion keep doing what your doing with battery "limits" safety as a priority.
There are limitless videos on youtube for builds if you need any links / help let me know ........

 

[Boden]

28awg will heat up faster than 26awg at the same wattage. Take shorter puffs.

 

[Spizzel]

There's just no way to get more vapor/nic out of the #28 build over the #26 build without overpowering it pretty heavily. 13W for the #28 build and 32W for the #26 build is right in the ball park to heat the coils to roughly the same temperatures. As a rule of thumb, every step down to the next even gauge size i.e. 28 to 26 to 24 and so on, the watts per ohm requirements double.

I think this is a big issue I'm having. I'm not fully understanding how varying coils affect the heat of the coil at varying wattage. I was pretty much under the impression that my resistance would be the sole dictator in how my vape performs. I guess in this case it would be more of the heat flux affecting my nic sickness since I ran the 28g at the same watt as the 26g?

 

[Ryedan]

I think this is a big issue I'm having. I'm not fully understanding how varying coils affect the heat of the coil at varying wattage. I was pretty much under the impression that my resistance would be the sole dictator in how my vape performs. I guess in this case it would be more of the heat flux affecting my nic sickness since I ran the 28g at the same watt as the 26g?

Thanks for the additional info

I ran mech mods for a couple of years and then got a few regulated mods. I have two Mutation X RDAs and did the experiment of setting one up at around 1 ohm and the other at around 0.4, both dual coil with 27 gauge Kanthal and vaped them alternately on two 40 watt mods at 40 watts for a few days. I could not tell a difference in vapor production or TH between them, watts is pretty much all that matters for this which makes sense. The 1 ohm setup had much less heat flux and noticeable heat up time while the 0.4 ohm build was pretty much instant-on. The 1 ohm setup had slightly better flavor. I really didn't notice much difference in vapor heat either, but at 40 watts the heat flux was pretty low for both.

I then switched to a Sigelei 150 and started raising the power, but then I had to switch the attys back and forth. The 1 ohm build came into its own at around 65 watts if I remember correctly, the heat up lag went away and the vape was great but a little to aggressive for me. The 0.4 ohm was great at 45-50 watts and that's a much better power level for me. I now run a 0.2 ohm setup using 24 gauge Kanthal at around 45 watts when it's been cleaned. I know it's time to dry burn and rewick when I have to set the power to just over 50 watts to get a satisfying vape. I lose just a little flavor with this setup as opposed to a bit more wire surface area, but I like working with the thicker wire so this is the compromise I like best for my all day vape. I make my own juices so adding a little more flavorant is easy for me. I also use a Psywar Onslaught daily with three coils, but the MX is my workhorse.

I don't know why you would get nic sick with that one setup after a few minutes of vaping. Something is off though with that one so we don't really know what's happening. OTOH, 40 watts is 40 watts and as long as it was not burning juice IMO there should not have been that much difference in the amount of juice being vaporized.

Let us know how it goes for you

 

[Mike 586]

I think this is a big issue I'm having. I'm not fully understanding how varying coils affect the heat of the coil at varying wattage. I was pretty much under the impression that my resistance would be the sole dictator in how my vape performs. I guess in this case it would be more of the heat flux affecting my nic sickness since I ran the 28g at the same watt as the 26g?

Yeah, you were heating the coils quite a bit. I have to wonder if it might have also been some bad things forming from that kind of heat, I seem to remember Dr. Farsalinos mentioning that at higher heats a lot of aldehydes get formed and that could be what was throwing you off. Anyway, that's another thing experience is going to teach you, after a while you'll immediately know something is up because of things like the sound the coil makes, the taste, the temperature or something else.


The ohms don't really mean much without two other things, the wire gauge and build configuration i.e. single, dual, quad and so on. You really need all three to definitively know how much power to apply.

Just for a point of reference and these are fairly rough numbers of what the various sizes need per ohm.

#32 = 2 to 3 watts per ohm
#30 = 4 to 6 watts per ohm
#28 = 8 to 12 watts per ohm
#26 = 16 to 24 watts per ohm
#24 = 32 to 48 watts per ohm
#22 = 64 to 96 watts per ohm

There are a couple of patterns to the numbers i.e. from #32, with each step its range doubles, and the doubling values on the low end of the range are like binary i.e. 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 and so on, also the high end of the range is always 1.5x the low end of the range. Also, knowing that larger gauge wires are typically used in sub-ohm builds, it kinda shows where the misconception comes from.

For now I'd be looking at the steam engine, or you could download the app for a phone/tablet to run numbers on for builds you're thinking of trying. I can guarantee that if you do that, all your troubles are going to be in how well you built and wicked the coil as opposed to not knowing how much power it should take. After that, the real experimentation (and what I found tough to master) is getting what diameter coil to make for a particular device and how to wick it properly nailed.

A couple of other, semi-related things. I'd strongly suggest a coiling tool like the coilmaster V3 or a set of kuro styled coiling tools, they really make building coils a breeze. A pair of ceramic tweezers is also a fine thing to have if you need to reshape a coil that got a little pulled out of shape.

 

[Ryedan]

The ohms don't really mean much without two other things, the wire gauge and build configuration i.e. single, dual, quad and so on. You really need all three to definitively know how much power to apply.

Just for a point of reference and these are fairly rough numbers of what the various sizes need per ohm.

#32 = 2 to 3 watts per ohm
#30 = 4 to 6 watts per ohm
#28 = 8 to 12 watts per ohm
#26 = 16 to 24 watts per ohm
#24 = 32 to 48 watts per ohm
#22 = 64 to 96 watts per ohm

There are a couple of patterns to the numbers i.e. from #32, with each step its range doubles, and the doubling values on the low end of the range are like binary i.e. 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 and so on, also the high end of the range is always 1.5x the low end of the range. Also, knowing that larger gauge wires are typically used in sub-ohm builds, it kinda shows where the misconception comes from.

For now I'd be looking at the steam engine, or you could download the app for a phone/tablet to run numbers on for builds you're thinking of trying.

I don't know you calculated those values or where you go them from if you didn't calculate them yourself, but they make no sense to me Mike.

I'm running a 0.2 ohm dual coil build using 24 gauge Kanthal at 50 watts. Calculating from average watts per ohm in your table I should be vaping this setup at 40 watts per ohm * 0.2 ohms = 8 watts. I realize that two coils could double the required wattage but that still only gives me 16 watts.

Spizzel is also using sub-ohm builds so that part of it is taken care of. Unless I'm totally missing something here (which has happened before ) I think there is something wrong with your numbers.

 

[Boden]

I don't know you calculated those values or where you go them from if you didn't calculate them yourself, but they make no sense to me Mike.

I'm running a 0.2 ohm dual coil build using 24 gauge Kanthal at 50 watts. Calculating from average watts per ohm in your table I should be vaping this setup at 40 watts per ohm * 0.2 ohms = 8 watts. I realize that two coils could double the required wattage but that still only gives me 16 watts.

Spizzel is also using sub-ohm builds so that part of it is taken care of. Unless I'm totally missing something here (which has happened before ) I think there is something wrong with your numbers.

Seems like it should be watts per inch of wire, or some such length.

 

[Mike 586]

Seems like it should be watts per inch of wire, or some such length.

Mabye.

I've never really looked at the numbers in that way or even compared the numbers you'd get from a .2 vs a 1 ohm build. I just happened to notice from playing around with the calculator that every change to the next gauge (skipping the odd numbered sizes) that the power requirements doubled on the next bigger size at the same ohm rating.

But yeah, dropping to a .2 ohm build, the numbers just stop working and are way off. At the moment, I'm not sure why.

 

[Boden]

It's too early. I can't science yet