How do they make premium juice so much better?

[jiminsandiego]

In my case I really like "Majestic, ice maiden and their other flavors. Very smooth, no perfume or soapy taste at all. Compare that to other (usually cheaper) juices, and it seems like they are doing something that makes them much "better". Aside from the PG/VG ratio, what is their "secret"? Better quality of nic, better quality of PG/VG, better quality of flavorings, perfect use of certain additives? I realize this is a very complicated question, but putting aside the actual flavor and intensity and nic level, why do some companies simply have a more pleasurable, less harsh taste/feel to them? Hope some of you can kind of understand what I'm asking and enlighten me. Thanks,
Jim

 

[we2rcool]

In my case I really like "Majestic, ice maiden and their other flavors. Very smooth, no perfume or soapy taste at all. Compare that to other (usually cheaper) juices, and it seems like they are doing something that makes them much "better". Aside from the PG/VG ratio, what is their "secret"? Better quality of nic, better quality of PG/VG, better quality of flavorings, perfect use of certain additives? I realize this is a very complicated question, but putting aside the actual flavor and intensity and nic level, why do some companies simply have a more pleasurable, less harsh taste/feel to them? Hope some of you can kind of understand what I'm asking and enlighten me. Thanks,
Jim

Experience. Most all experienced DIYers agree...our juices blow away even the best of the vendor juices.

But it's not likely to happen overnight. All artists have to pay some dues before they're able to create masterpieces...they have to get to know the characteristics of each of the elements with which they're working.

Get to know each flavor...how it tastes at different percentages; how it tastes it tastes with pg; how it tastes with vg; how it tastes/reacts with the various additives (most additives cause a flavor loss over time); how the nic affects the flavor; how it changes (if it does) as it steeps...and all the differing ways it plays with others Read the stickies; read the recommended blogs (Hoosier's and dannyv45's).

You don't have to do all that for 'starters' - you can easily make some VERY satisfying 1, 2, 3 flavor recipes. If you want to hit a few homeruns right away, FA (Flavourart) flavors are your best bet (and if it matters, FA's flavors are free of the chemicals that are known to be inhalation risks). There are already dozens of great/easy combos in this thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/518022-pure-vapes-has-3ml-flavourart-flavorings.html ...be SURE to check it out!

 

[MarkyD]

There is also the "development cycle". In software programming this amounts to code/test/debug/recode and this process is repeated over and over until no issues remain. The technique works in mixing... mix, taste, determine the strong and weak points, revise, repeat. Decent commercial liquids have probably been put through this cycle many, many times before becoming "just right". Commercial vendors also have the resources (and can afford to) mix many different samples at once, ie different percentages and combinations which can speed up the process.

 

[MarkyD]

Consider too, the use of food/flavor chemists, able to combine (in designer fashion) individual flavor molecules to achieve a desired flavoring or mixture for a totally proprietary in-house formula. Combine this with a parallel development cycle and you have the ability to rapidy make a highly custom, well designed product. Where this can benefit diy is if the companies are large enough (or nice enough) to make their flavors or concentrated mixes publicly available. We get their chemistry knowledge and development effort in an inexpensive and easy to use format that gives professional results. Companies like Hangsen and Dekang are examples of large companies that began by making pre-mixed liquids and eventually released their flavorings publicly.

 

[Gonzi]

Quality of ingredients, fine tweeked recipes and hype. Just saying, there are some amazing juices out there, but more often than not, it's word of mouth and hype that make one juice "way better" that the other.

 

[MarkyD]

Quality of ingredients, fine tweeked recipes and hype

So true. The vast majority of smaller companies out there touting "premium" are doing the same thing we've been doing all along. That is, combining different things from various flavoring manufacturers, finding out what works or doesnt, and developing what does work into a finished product. Quality, easy to use diy ingredients such as FA, Hangsen, Inawera and others may well eventually put some of these companies out of business as more and more people find out that its just not that difficult to make something "premium" themselves.

 

[HeadInClouds]

In my case I really like "Majestic, ice maiden and their other flavors. Very smooth, no perfume or soapy taste at all. Compare that to other (usually cheaper) juices, and it seems like they are doing something that makes them much "better". Aside from the PG/VG ratio, what is their "secret"? Better quality of nic, better quality of PG/VG, better quality of flavorings, perfect use of certain additives? I realize this is a very complicated question, but putting aside the actual flavor and intensity and nic level, why do some companies simply have a more pleasurable, less harsh taste/feel to them? Hope some of you can kind of understand what I'm asking and enlighten me. Thanks,
Jim

There isn't a magic additive, PG/VG ratio, or nic source that makes a delicious mix. The actual flavorings and percentages of each are most important, and that knowledge comes with time spent experimenting.

You can DIY juices just as great as any vendor's, if you take the time. In fact, you can do better, because you're mixing to your own preferences. You start with flavors that you personally like, you try each as a standalone flavor to get a feel for the flavor and strength. You take lots of notes. You try different brands of the same flavor to find what you prefer. You experiment with combinations. Great juice vendors have done all that for every flavor in their recipes. Lousy juice vendors add 15% (or whatever standard percent) of Grape to nic base, label it Grape Juice, maybe "reformulate" it later when it gets bad reviews. A great vendor would have tried white grape, concord grape, champagne, etc., know the strength of each, try combinations, maybe recall another flavor that might accent it nicely, try that, get others to try it, all before it's ever sold.

Harsh, soapy, perfumed juices are often from overflavoring. It's easy to avoid if you've taken time to try each flavor separately. A great mix can be ruined by adding one lousy flavoring to it, or too much of any flavor. Lousy juice vendors just don't take the time to avoid all those pitfalls.

And then again, even a popular "premium" recipe might not appeal to you. Even a great vendor who has taken time to develop a popular recipe knows - no matter how great it is, someone will hate it. If you DIY you cater to yourself. You'll never be taken by surprise by a vendor's description of "sweet spicy backdrop" being licorice, when you expected cinnamon. It takes time and patience, but I think it's a lot of fun. The longer you do it, the better you get.

 

[horton]

It's all perception far as I'm concerned. Personally, I gag when I see some of the prices asked for premium juices. It seems that charging a high price "transforms" the juice to the premium shelf.
HeadInClouds hit the nail on the head by referring to making your own juice, tailored to YOUR own tastes. Nothing could be better than your own juice made to your own taste!!!

 

[vapero]

I for one think that my mixes taste much better than anything I've bought

 

[horton]

Yep, I have some favs of my own creation too. And every time I vape, I think of all the money I've saved on juice that I can now spend on equipment.....

 

[michaelsil1]

It's all perception far as I'm concerned. Personally, I gag when I see some of the prices asked for premium juices. It seems that charging a high price "transforms" the juice to the premium shelf.
HeadInClouds hit the nail on the head by referring to making your own juice, tailored to YOUR own tastes. Nothing could be better than your own juice made to your own taste!!!

Since I paid more it has to taste better!



If you want your Juice more like store bought add a bunch of Sweetener

 

[horton]

Since I paid more it has to taste better!



If you want your Juice more like store bought add a bunch of Sweetener

LOL... have I got a deal for you.... special blend juice, ultra pasteurized, double sweetened, super secret ingredients for only $2 per ml. I'll make as much as you want!! This will be the best tasting juice you ever had. (Just joking -- hope no one thinks I'm trying to sell juice)

 

[michaelsil1]

have I got a deal for you.... special blend juice, ultra pasteurized, double sweetened, super secret ingredients for only $2 per ml. I'll make as much as you want!!

 

[Kemosabe]

There is also the "development cycle". In software programming this amounts to code/test/debug/recode and this process is repeated over and over until no issues remain. The technique works in mixing... mix, taste, determine the strong and weak points, revise, repeat. Decent commercial liquids have probably been put through this cycle many, many times before becoming "just right". Commercial vendors also have the resources (and can afford to) mix many different samples at once, ie different percentages and combinations which can speed up the process.

i can recognize this as sound advice.
i myself expected to run into a mix, tweak, and re-tweak period.
but after years of on-and-off mixing, i just cant get it right (with the exception of a handful of successful mixes).

where i run into problems is recognizing and articulating what is "wrong" or "off" with my mixes.
for example, say i make a Mtn Dew flavor. 1 flavor mix: mtn dew type flavoring. i start low, like 5%. if its weak, i'll bump it up in flavor. if its too strong, i bump it down. but thats basically all i know to improve the end result, and most of the time, thats not enough.

if going up or down on the flavor doesnt work, im just about out of tricks.
i have learned the benefit of EM, and typically add that to my mixes. but a lot of the time it either does nothing or just adds sweetness and doesnt improve the flavor. i have a hard time deciding if "this flavor is not for me" -OR- if "i mixed this flavor wrong". i have no baseline, other than to compare it to vendor juice. and if the vendor is not using the same flavoring company as i am, i will never know. frustrating.

oh, and i have also tried additives like vinegar, lemon juice, malic acid, and tart & sour. maybe im using them at the wrong percentages, but those dont really seem to do anything either. ive used them anywhere from 1 drop per 5ml all the way up to 1% or two, depending on the additive.

i wish there was a DIY brick and mortar that could show me how certain flavorings are *supposed* to taste. that way i know if im wasting my time or not trying to "perfect" a flavor- when in all reality, i might just not like that flavor, no matter how much tweaking i do.

 

[Kemosabe]

There isn't a magic additive, PG/VG ratio, or nic source that makes a delicious mix. The actual flavorings and percentages of each are most important, and that knowledge comes with time spent experimenting.

You can DIY juices just as great as any vendor's, if you take the time. In fact, you can do better, because you're mixing to your own preferences. You start with flavors that you personally like, you try each as a standalone flavor to get a feel for the flavor and strength. You take lots of notes. You try different brands of the same flavor to find what you prefer. You experiment with combinations. Great juice vendors have done all that for every flavor in their recipes. Lousy juice vendors add 15% (or whatever standard percent) of Grape to nic base, label it Grape Juice, maybe "reformulate" it later when it gets bad reviews. A great vendor would have tried white grape, concord grape, champagne, etc., know the strength of each, try combinations, maybe recall another flavor that might accent it nicely, try that, get others to try it, all before it's ever sold.

Harsh, soapy, perfumed juices are often from overflavoring. It's easy to avoid if you've taken time to try each flavor separately. A great mix can be ruined by adding one lousy flavoring to it, or too much of any flavor. Lousy juice vendors just don't take the time to avoid all those pitfalls.

And then again, even a popular "premium" recipe might not appeal to you. Even a great vendor who has taken time to develop a popular recipe knows - no matter how great it is, someone will hate it. If you DIY you cater to yourself. You'll never be taken by surprise by a vendor's description of "sweet spicy backdrop" being licorice, when you expected cinnamon. It takes time and patience, but I think it's a lot of fun. The longer you do it, the better you get.

how do you determine if you mixed the flavor wrong (ie needs more/less flavoring, needs an additive, needs a steep, etc), or if you just dont like that flavor?

for example, i really like vendor mtn dew. ive tried several and they were all good. but my mtn dew, not so much. ive tried TPA and FW and both arent as good as the vendors'; but they are close. i wonder if any type of tweaking i do will get me there, or if i should just keep trying different brands of Mtn Dew flavoring until i find it.

 

[Gonzi]

I've never tried a mountain dew vape, so can't help you with that one, but I've come accross many flavors that just don't cut it by themselves. I'm not a huge fan of EM, I get sweet efervecent from it, so I don't use it, but to tweek a mix, after I get the strength of the main flavoring down, I try to complement it with 1 or a few other flavors to enhance it. The only time I use anything else, other than flavors, is Koolada sometimes to boost throat hit and ACV to help tobaccos that taste bland or undefined.

 

[jiminsandiego]

Wow, thanks for all the input folks. The more I learn the more I want to get my DIY supplies. I'm planing on buying from ecigexpress and am hoping that their nic and PG/VG base is comparable in quality to those "premium" liquids. I'll buy the most recommended flavors from the most recommended vendors and hope that I have the best ingredients I can get to insure that my success is "all up to me".
Jim

 

[michaelsil1]

Wow, thanks for all the input folks. The more I learn the more I want to get my DIY supplies. I'm planing on buying from ecigexpress and am hoping that their nic and PG/VG base is comparable in quality to those "premium" liquids. I'll buy the most recommended flavors from the most recommended vendors and hope that I have the best ingredients I can get to insure that my success is "all up to me".
Jim

ECX Nicotine sucks right now! They switched to some synthetic stuff that a lot of members don't like.

 

[Crunktanium]

many flavors that just don't cut it by themselves

This quote is the key to really good juice.

All of the $1/ml stuff is complex blends of many flavors. It can take months to get just one really good flavor and days to make dozens of sub par crap. If a vendor puts in the time and money to make what you want they in turn expect to make worthwhile a profit.

 

[Blueser]

"How do they make premium juice so much better" ...wasn't aware they did/do...after spending hundreds of dollars on premium juice, I can only think of a very few that I personally could remotely vape occasionally...most was just so over-flavored and sickeningly perfume sweet...to each his own but I much prefer my worst mix over what I tried...