How long does it take to wreck e-fuild? Let's find out.

[Victor Frankenstein]

(This thread is spawned from here and here.)

Long story short - I bought liquid from uvapeit.com and it doesn't vapourize. Can_supplier brought up an interesting point (bolding mine):

PG will break down when its exposed to light, which is why it ships in opaque bottles, and also from heat. One of the products of the decomposition is water. (chemists out there you are welcome to correct me with something other than the layman's explanation).

As we know water vaporizes at 100C which is higher than PG, I'll bet that is what is happening.

Always store your e-juice in a dark place when not in use, never in direct sunlight. The fridge is an excellent place. (this comment is not directed that this situation, just a good practice)

So this could explain why the liquid I received doesn't vapourize. At some point before I received it the liquid "turned sour" (for the lack of a better phrase).

But, how long does it take for something like this to happen in the real world?

I don't keep my fluids in the fridge but I do store them in a cold, dark place. Ideally they should last a couple years or more in this state.

But let's say I decide to keep them in a clear glass bottle on the windowsill, in the hot summer sun. How long will it take to break this stuff down? A couple days? A week? Longer?

How about heat alone? If I warm the bottle up to 30-40c for an hour is that enough to kill it?

Does anyone have some numbers on this or am I going to need to run some of my own tests to find out?

I have some plain PG I'm willing to sacrifice for information. Of course I need to come up with some good tests. (Windowsill - clear glass bottle, green glass bottle, opaque plastic, etc).

If I do test this, I don't want to put the test fluids in an atomizer. They're too hard to fully clean to get accurate results. I'll need to build something like an external coil - something I can touch to a drop of liquid and wipe off between tests. How hot does a common atomizer get? I wonder if a soldering iron would work?

So, the purpose of this thread is to either get some information on how long it takes for liquid to "turn" and if no one knows then let's brainstorm a bunch of good tests and I'll perform/document/video it.

 

[brandon555]

A soldering iron would be way too hot. The one I have gets to about 750° Fahrenheit.

I believe a typical atomizer only heats up to around 180°. Not sure about different voltages though.

As far as a test you could use the same fluid from a 30ml bottle and seperate them into 6 different 5ml bottles for example. Put one bottle on a window sill... leave one in your car... one in the fridge... one in the living room...

However you'd need a way to measure the degradation of the nicotine and PG... a lab might come in handy for that...

I dunno, just some ideas.

 

[mini_art]

a soldering iron and a reastat to control the temperature on it might work.
Reastats are not expensive for them. I used one all the time making stained glass windows

 

[brandon555]

The liquid have could have just been made poorly. Maybe add some VG to it to see if that helps. I've had liquids that were real thin and watery that had terrible vapor production before.

 

[Victor Frankenstein]

I believe a typical atomizer only heats up to around 180°.

That's not very hot at all actually. I thought it was more.

As far as a test you could use the same fluid from a 30ml bottle and seperate them into 6 different 5ml bottles for example. Put one bottle on a window sill... leave one in your car... one in the fridge... one in the living room...

That's kind of what I was thinking. I have a bunch of 3ml bottles, some clear, some plastic, some in green glass. Figuring each test would only need a drop to test vapour production 3ml in each should be plenty.

However you'd need a way to measure the degradation of the nicotine and PG... a lab might come in handy for that...

I'm not really worried about the nicotine. If the juice doesn't vapourize the nicotine value is kind of moot.

a soldering iron and a reastat to control the temperature on it might work.
Reastats are not expensive for them. I used one all the time making stained glass windows

I have one on my electronics desk. I'll put a thermometer on it and see what it reaches at the lowest setting.

The liquid have could have just been made poorly. Maybe add some VG to it to see if that helps. I've had liquids that were real thin and watery that had terrible vapor production before.

It could have been mixed incorrectly. It could have turned. It could be really old. I don't think we'll ever know and the company I bought them from doesn't seem interested. They just shrugged and said "We've sold a lot of it" and I think I've wasted my money (and they lost a customer).

That aside, my thoughts are what exactly will wreck liquids. No one really seems to know what they can tolerate. Everyone has some ideas, but I'm not having good luck getting a straight answer.

I think it's time we found it.

I do have some plain VG - in fact quite a lot of it which I will never use. I might as well put that into the testing to see how it reacts.

 

[v1John]

Any info about VG and PEG?
We do need to know how long they can take how much heat. Right.

 

[Victor Frankenstein]

I have some plain VG. I can run the same tests next to the PG.

I don't have any PEG though.

 

[v1John]

I think they're somewhat safe in the heat of the cartomizers for several hours, at least. Perhaps up to 24 hours of non continuous use, but I would not expect the same quality on the second day without adding new liquid.

PG and possibly the others are hydrophillic, and have a great affinity for water. So I wonder if sour PG is simply PG that has attracted too much water.

Using the brand new CE2 cartomizers, I am able to get more nicotine out the same bottles I've been using. This also reminds me, when you mentioned atomizers to test with, the CE2s may be something to think about. They're inexpensive, but they're reliable and for the price of a $10 atomizer, you could have several of these to run tests in.

 

[Victor Frankenstein]

I think they're somewhat safe in the heat of the cartomizers for several hours, at least. Perhaps up to 24 hours of non continuous use, but I would not expect the same quality on the second day without adding new liquid.

PG and possibly the others are hydrophillic, and have a great affinity for water. So I wonder if sour PG is simply PG that has attracted too much water.

Using the brand new CE2 cartomizers, I am able to get more nicotine out the same bottles I've been using. This also reminds me, when you mentioned atomizers to test with, the CE2s may be something to think about. They're inexpensive, but they're reliable and for the price of a $10 atomizer, you could have several of these to run tests in.

You bring up a point I have noticed but never stopped to consider why.

I use cartridges with tea bags. I fill the cartridge with PG and keep topping it up as needed. I've noticed when I use clean or new tea bags I can vape the cartridge near dry for the first few refills. Over time, I tend to need to refill more often - like there is PG saturating the tea bags that doesn't flow well - or something.

If what we're talking about is true, the heat from the atomizer is breaking down some of the PG in the tea bags just a little at a time. After a week or so you are left with a cartridge filled with "sour" PG. This makes sense.

As for testing with atomizers, I'd like to avoid using an atomizer and e-cig for testing. It is too subjective and I think it would be hard to demonstrate.

I spent a few minutes today testing a vapour producing rig made from a solder iron with a bit of tinfoil on the tip and some desoldering wick material.

I found the wick material provided more surface area and actually helped produce more vapour then just dripping a drop on the tin foil.

I'd also like to video my results so I made a test video to play with lighting.

This seemed to work well. I think I can improve the lighting a bit though.

Now I need a way to demonstrate how much vapour is being produced per drop. Also a way to show if any PG isn't being vapourized. Ideally, if we wreck some PG, some will sit in the wick and do nothing.

The third problem I thought of was using the same amount of PG/VG for each test. As you can see in the video it is hard to drip the same amount. The second test, the maple flavoured PG, actually started to vapourize on the glass dripper before I let a drop go on the wick.

I'll have to think about that.

You'll have to excuse me in the video. I'm actually feeling quite sick today and a little shaky.

YouTube - PG vapour producing rig

Another interesting thing to note in the video between the two samples - the plain PG quietly vapourized. There was no bubbling and it left no residue. The Maple PG bubbled away and left a bit of residue on the tin foil (which you can't see in the video). I mixed the maple flavouring myself. It was 3ml of 24mg PG and 5 drops of FlavourArt Maple.

I think that test clearly shows one of the things that gunk up atomizers. Perhaps the side benefit of this test is getting a fair amount of residue on the tin foil and actually seeing what can clean it off.

 

[Rocketman]

It is also possible than the combination of ingredients (flavors and other crap ) may contribute to juice going 'sour'. Do you plan on using 'pure' substances?

The more ingredients in our e-juice, the better the chance for unwanted chemical reactions.

 

[v1John]

Good start for a good study of this.

You can also combine the videos with split screen. Try to put the test tip a little lower on the video, I thought I noticed some vapor occasionally forming about an inch above the test tip actually.

Great thread idea.

 

[Victor Frankenstein]

It is also possible than the combination of ingredients (flavors and other crap ) may contribute to juice going 'sour'. Do you plan on using 'pure' substances?

The more ingredients in our e-juice, the better the chance for unwanted chemical reactions.

To start I just want to cover the basics. I have plain PG and VG to work with so I'll start there.

Good start for a good study of this.

You can also combine the videos with split screen. Try to put the test tip a little lower on the video, I thought I noticed some vapor occasionally forming about an inch above the test tip actually.

Great thread idea.

I thought about the split-screen idea. Some tests will need to be done daily over the course of a week to get an idea when the fluid goes south. The fluid in the window sill will needed to be tested daily. I can show the control fluid against several different days with spilt screen.

I think with some different lighting and with the camera back a bit - and perhaps something to capture the vapour - I can get better looking results.

This is one of the more important aspects of the test so I need to play around a bit more to get it right. I have a space I can set up a shoot area for a month so it will always be the same lighting/setup/etc.

I'm a little busy this week but I'll try to set up the test area and take a couple more test shots. I'll upload them and we can decide which one looks the best.