How long should batteries last

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tj99959

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    Hell I've even got some old Trustfires that still hold a charge just fine. They were the battery to beat all batteries when I first started vaping.
    (Don't worry, they power flashlights now.)
    My point is if you abuse batteries they don't last, but if you take care of them they should last quite a while. ...... Your choice ......
     

    Margucci

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    in general any lithium based battery (lithium ion or polymer) dont like to be full or empty for extended periods. this is what leads to the 3.7-3.9v "storage voltage" people sometimes speak about. you generally dont want to battery to drop below 20-30% when discharging and you dont want to keep the battery above 80% for extended periods. also keep in mind that a cycle is any time you charge the device. if you drain down to 30% and charge up to 80%, drain it down to 50% before charging it fully to 100% that would count as 2 charging cycles. when you charge the device top it up all the way unless you will be storing it for an extended time (in which case you would normally charge to between 60%-80%.

    however, batteries are cheap. a samsung 25r can be bought for $5. i just do whatever i want really and if i need to replace them every 6 months who cares.
     

    Mooch

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    in general any lithium based battery (lithium ion or polymer) dont like to be full or empty for extended periods. this is what leads to the 3.7-3.9v "storage voltage" people sometimes speak about. you generally dont want to battery to drop below 20-30% when discharging and you dont want to keep the battery above 80% for extended periods. also keep in mind that a cycle is any time you charge the device. if you drain down to 30% and charge up to 80%, drain it down to 50% before charging it fully to 100% that would count as 2 charging cycles. when you charge the device top it up all the way unless you will be storing it for an extended time (in which case you would normally charge to between 60%-80%.

    however, batteries are cheap. a samsung 25r can be bought for $5. i just do whatever i want really and if i need to replace them every 6 months who cares.

    I agree with all of your post except the item about what constitutes a cycle. One cycle is defined as the discharge and recharge of the amount of mAh equal to the battery's capacity. That is, you discharge from 100% down to 0% and recharge. So if you discharge down to 50%, recharge, discharge again down to 50%, and recharge again, that is only one cycle.

    If every time you charged the battery it counted as a full cycle you would only be able to discharge from, let's say, 70% to 60% and then recharge about 300 times. But with that shallow of a discharge you could do it thousands of times before the battery needs replacing.
     

    Margucci

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    I agree with all of your post except the item about what constitutes a cycle. One cycle is defined as the discharge and recharge of the amount of mAh equal to the battery's capacity. That is, you discharge from 100% down to 0% and recharge. So if you discharge down to 50%, recharge, discharge again down to 50%, and recharge again, that is only one cycle.

    If every time you charged the battery it counted as a full cycle you would only be able to discharge from, let's say, 70% to 60% and then recharge about 300 times. But with that shallow of a discharge you could do it thousands of times before the battery needs replacing.
    There have been studies done which point to a cycle being the full heating of the battery during a charge. Plugging in a battery for a few seconds doesn't heat it any noticible amount. Plug in that battery for an extended period and it will get decently warm. It is thought that the act of charging does less damage than the heating of the cell during charging. That is also the reason why batteries charged at 500mA suffer less damage than those charged at 2A.

    I guarantee that if you had two batteries, one discharging and recharging fully and the other just discharging to 50%, the battery discharging to 50% would not be able to go through twice as many cycles.
     

    tj99959

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    There have been studies done which point to a cycle being the full heating of the battery during a charge. Plugging in a battery for a few seconds doesn't heat it any noticible amount. Plug in that battery for an extended period and it will get decently warm. It is thought that the act of charging does less damage than the heating of the cell during charging. That is also the reason why batteries charged at 500mA suffer less damage than those charged at 2A.

    I guarantee that if you had two batteries, one discharging and recharging fully and the other just discharging to 50%, the battery discharging to 50% would not be able to go through twice as many cycles.

    In theory Mooch is correct.
    A 2,000mAh battery *should* be good for 600,000mAh (300 cycles) to 1,000,000mAh (500 cycles)
     

    Margucci

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    In theory Mooch is correct.
    A 2,000mAh battery *should* be good for 600,000mAh (300 cycles) to 1,000,000mAh (500 cycles)
    in theory, yes. however, as my professors said, we dont live in a world of spherical chickens, point masses, and perfect springs. heat is the achilles heel of batteries. anything you can do to minimize how much they heat up, how long they are hot for, and you improve their heat conduction the better they will operate.
     

    ian-field

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    I just reread your OP and realized that I answered the wrong question.
    As stated look after them and they will last about 300 charge cycles or about a year on average. You can extend the life of a cell by not over-stressing it by exceeding the amp limits. Don't discharge below 3.50 volts and stop charging at 4.10 volts. Lithium ion batteries don't have a memory as such, so just keep them within those operating voltages and don't be afraid to top up regularly, and use a good quality charger.

    The terminal voltage varies with type; 4.1V was usual with older generations of cells, but most current types need 4.2V - I've recently encountered cells that want 4.3V, but apparently those are not suitable for ecigs.

    Terminal voltage is critical, so you should be sure to use the right charger for any given cell type.
     

    Captain Pegleg

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    According to "Battery University's) info on lithium based batteries , never run them down too low and recharge often . Recharge early instead of draining them down and you will be rewarded .

    This apply's to mods that have built in lithium based batteries as well , MVP's , E leaf , E vic etc...


    This is the main thing. I went too long without charging my very drained batteries, and as a result they only charge up to 4.1 volts and drain much more quickly than when new. I thought I would be safe with a regulated mod. Turns out I should have recharged them Immediately, and before the battery indicator read "recharge."
     
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    Captain Pegleg

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    in theory, yes. however, as my professors said, we dont live in a world of spherical chickens, point masses, and perfect springs. heat is the achilles heel of batteries. anything you can do to minimize how much they heat up, how long they are hot for, and you improve their heat conduction the better they will operate.

    2amps charging does sound too fast, to me. I charge at 500mah and my batteries don't get warm at all, not to the point of doing damage. They can get quite warm (no numbers here, sorry) before damage is being done
     

    sonicbomb

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    The terminal voltage varies with type; 4.1V was usual with older generations of cells, but most current types need 4.2V - I've recently encountered cells that want 4.3V, but apparently those are not suitable for ecigs.
    Terminal voltage is critical, so you should be sure to use the right charger for any given cell type.

    I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that a battery with a nominal charge of 4.2 volts benefits from only being charged to 4.1 volts. I'm told this extends the life of the cell.
     

    herb

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    That is a bit odd coming from Battery University. It is quite the opposite of what I.e RC enthusiasts will tell you. Or the occasional "how to treat your phone battery"-filler article on many tech blogs.

    I believe there may be some baby in that bathwater. Not all li-ion cells suffer the same self-discharge. Meaning they will stay at the voltage level you leave them at (or not). Protected cells tend to self-discharge more than the cell itself. Thus they should not be left at a low State of Charge (SoC) in fear of them dropping below the voltage of no return. We don't use those anyway.

    RC enthusiasts will tell you the exact opposite of "charge as soon as possible". They will will tell you not to charge your batteries unless you plan to use them shortly. Many hobby chargers come with a "storage charge" function as well. It will either charge your batts to ~3.7v - or drain them down to that level. Mind you, they tend to use lipo batteries that comes with higher prices, risks and rewards. Lipos also have very low self discharge.

    The one thing that deteriorate li-ion batteries the most beside high amp draw and charge cycles - is storing them at a high SoC. Then again, batteries should have some time to rest between use and charge. And I want my batteries ready to vape - not having to charge and rest each and every cell as I need a full one. Thus I have concluded vaping is not very compatible with ideal treatment of batteries.

    Just charging them for sake of not leaving them around 3.5-3.7v, tho? Not doing that. I have enough batteries to allow a few of them to sit ("drained") next to my charger, waiting until I'm running low on vape-ready charged batts.

    This may not be The One and Only Truth. It's just what I base my battery treatment on.



    I am no battery expert by any means and am only going on what i experienced and read ( unfortunately i could of misunderstood ) quite common with me actually , and it sounds like you know a lot more than i do.

    I have a few lithium based batteries , don't know the ins and outs of the different kinds to be honest but with my MVP devices , i had a habit of fully charging and discharging before i would recharge and those two lasted under a year .

    I followed the advice of some people who knew a lot more than i did and charged more often and never drained it like i had in the past , these two current devices are still working perfectly well over a year later, convinced it makes a difference by those results alone.

    I am almost positive i read about this stuff on Battery Universities site but looked and now i don't see it , not sure if i'm mistaken or not but if i do find that info i will repost it.

    Thanks for the education and your great post Sir.
     

    Mooch

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    in theory, yes. however, as my professors said, we dont live in a world of spherical chickens, point masses, and perfect springs. heat is the achilles heel of batteries. anything you can do to minimize how much they heat up, how long they are hot for, and you improve their heat conduction the better they will operate.

    Agreed, but my original point still holds...a cycle is defined as a discharge/charge equal to the rated capacity of the cell. Whether that can be brought to the huge range of possible charge/discharge scenarios is a different discussion about efficiency and doesn't change the definition of a cycle. :)

    [edit] But I'm wondering if part of the problem is that "cycle" can be used in different ways. It can be used to indicate the formal definition of discharging/charging the rated capacity of the cell or it can be used to indicate that the cell was discharged/charged any amount. For example, one could discharge and recharge a cell 50 times down to a bunch of different points and still say that they cycled the cell 50 times. But if the battery only lasted that long they couldn't say it had a cycle life of 50.
     
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    Mooch

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    There have been studies done which point to a cycle being the full heating of the battery during a charge. Plugging in a battery for a few seconds doesn't heat it any noticible amount. Plug in that battery for an extended period and it will get decently warm. It is thought that the act of charging does less damage than the heating of the cell during charging. That is also the reason why batteries charged at 500mA suffer less damage than those charged at 2A.

    I guarantee that if you had two batteries, one discharging and recharging fully and the other just discharging to 50%, the battery discharging to 50% would not be able to go through twice as many cycles.

    Agreed, heat is the enemy.
    There are inefficiencies involved when extrapolating out to the various possible combinations of charge/discharge quantities but the definition if a cycle remains the same.

    If I charge and discharge at a low current level, where you don't involve heat and the inefficiencies it adds, then you can achieve the rated cycle life of a battery as defined. That's how the cycle life ratings are derived, at low current levels. We typically charge/discharge at much higher current levels than this, of course, so the cycling becomes less efficient. That doesn't change the fact that a cycle is not defined by every time you charge/discharge it where the battery gets hot.

    These studies point to the things that affect cycle life, and they eventually might redefine what a true cycle might be, but there has to be a lot more to it than just saying if the battery gets warm/hot that's a full cycle. How hot? For how long? For which li-ion chemistries? How much do we derate the standard cycle life rating? IMHO, we can't just redefine an accepted rating definition because vaping batteries get hot.

    Our batteries do get hot. You change the expected cycle life because of that, e.g., from 300 to 150. You don't change the definition of a cycle to compensate.
     

    Mooch

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    ian-field

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    I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that a battery with a nominal charge of 4.2 volts benefits from only being charged to 4.1 volts. I'm told this extends the life of the cell.
    The specified terminal voltage is critical both from safety and longevity points of view.

    Over discharging probably shortens life more, but over charging tends to be abrupt and fairly dramatic.

    AFAIK: even dropping the charge voltage by only 0.1V reduces available charge capacity by a significant amount. Which means you approach the possibility of over discharge sooner.

    Its worth having a look at the charge profile curves on the manufacturers datasheet. Its a bad idea to float charge lithium cells for long periods - but they do need a "topping charge", which means the charger completes the charge cycle by maintaining the specified terminal voltage for a set period.
     

    Trailz

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    I just use my batteries and replace them when I feel they're losing capacity. While I make an effort to charge them when the battery indicator hits 25%, there are times I forget and all of a sudden the battery bar is next to nothing. If I get a year out of my 18650s at $8.99/pair, I'd say that's a pretty good ROI. My LG HE2s are all going strong and I purchased them last Dec.
     
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