how many mahs is this Battery really? Email from iTaste MVP

[frankfennel]

^At 9:13, he finds two 2200 mah batteries. I googled this, found someone else mention they saw the review and said it might be 4400mah total. I emailed innokin and got this reply:

"Hi ,
we make statement of this issue time ago , the MVP’s standard size battery is real 2600mAh , we open mold and order customize battery like that. however , MVP is VV product , need for high-current discharge , ordingly discharge battery can not meet 5V , The battery supplier produce battery depend on 2600mAh standard, You know , high-current discharge will lose about 15% , 2600x0.85=2210mAh , 2210mAh is precise MVP high-current discharge capacity .

Any questions or assistance , please let us know freely .
Sincerely yours ,..."



"2210mAh is precise MVP high-current discharge capacity"
"the MVP’s standard size battery is real 2600mAh"

So which is it?
Really 2210 mah falsely advertised at 2600?
Or 'real 2600mah' but loses about %15 on high volt/watt setting that make it only 2210 mah or something like that?

 

[frankfennel]

bump up to page 1

 

[bazmonkey]

It's just what they said. It's a 2600mAh battery. As with any battery (they're just not all explaining this), draining it at a higher voltage comes with a ~15% efficiency penalty. That comes out to 2210mAh, so they call it 2200mAh to make it a nice round number and not disappoint anyone. If they called it 2600 and explained all this, many people would drown the technical part and jump straight to "I only got 2200mAh out of my 2600mAh battery, ...?"

 

[unloaded]

It's not gonna be 4400mAh because they are "stacked" to get 7.4v to the regulator. I'm surprised to see them doing it this way, most mods now are stepping up from a single battery.

 

[chinamon]

need for high-current discharge , ordingly discharge battery can not meet 5V

thats enough to tell me that the guy has absolutely no idea what hes talking about. current and voltage are two totally different things when it comes to electricity. none of the batteries can output 5V anyway (when used individually, not in series or "stacked")

 

[frankfennel]

"It's just what they said. It's a 2600mAh battery. As with any battery (they're just not all explaining this), draining it at a higher voltage comes with a ~15% efficiency penalty."

ALL batteries? Even like high drain 18650s lose %15 at higher voltages?

'higher voltages loses %15' means like if I set the PV volts up at 4.8V it will take %15 more then if set to 3.3V? Or that even 3.3V is considered 'high volts' and takes the 2600mah down to 2210?

If ALL batteries are %15 lower then claimed, then I'm not really worried (especially since MVP is a passthrough), since it would balance out reading things like "I get all day from a 3000mah 18650" which woudl really be %15 lower mahs.

 

[Ryedan]

Check for a review by PBusardo. He always states battery duration in hours at his vape pace, typically near the end. This is the most accurate way I can think of to get a handle on device longevity per charge as it takes all the device variables into account.

 

[frankfennel]

^ good thinkin, but I'm still wondering my questions above your post - if all vaping batteries are always %15 lower or just when at higher volts set on the device and if some don't loose %15 at all.

 

[nahoku]

Check for a review by PBusardo. He always states battery duration in hours at his vape pace, typically near the end. This is the most accurate way I can think of to get a handle on device longevity per charge as it takes all the device variables into account.

You can't really go by PBusardo's times. It's at "his" vape pace. I've read that some people here can go 6 - 8 hours on a 18350. I think to myself "Huh???" I'd be lucky to get 5 hours on my mechanical at "my" vape pace... but then again, I'm at home vaping my face off in front of my computer!

 

[frankfennel]

still wondering if all vaping batteries are always %15 lower that marked (assuming not falsely marked) or just when at higher volts set on the MOD
and if some don't loose %15 at all.

 

[Ryedan]

^ good thinkin, but I'm still wondering my questions above your post - if all vaping batteries are always %15 lower or just when at higher volts set on the device and if some don't loose %15 at all.

"It's just what they said. It's a 2600mAh battery. As with any battery (they're just not all explaining this), draining it at a higher voltage comes with a ~15% efficiency penalty

They are referring to the losses that come from voltage regulation. Some regulation systems are better, some are worse. I don't know enough about it to give you a more technical explanation. I do believe 15% is not unreasonable. Mechanical mods do not have this issue, but you might not like vaping the last 15% (or likely more than 15%) of battery charge because of the lowered voltage. There is no free lunch

 

[Ryedan]

You can't really go by PBusardo's times. It's at "his" vape pace. I've read that some people here can go 6 - 8 hours on a 18350. I think to myself "Huh???" I'd be lucky to get 5 hours on my mechanical at "my" vape pace... but then again, I'm at home vaping my face off in front of my computer!

Yes, but because he does this for a lot of his reviews, you can compare devices all vaped at his pace. So, if he gets 20 hrs for device 'A' and 22 hrs for device 'B', you know device 'B' gets about 10% longer vape time. It's not scientific and there can be other variables involved too, but it's better than nothing.

 

[DavidOck]

IIRC, regulating voltage down puts less demand on the source, so putting them in series, so the regulator only has to throttle down and not boost the voltage should provide longer life.

I do know, for me, my MVP will last more than twice as long as a 1300 Spinner, with the same top ends in use...

 

[Unforeseen]

Moved to Variable Voltage APV Discussion

 

[frankfennel]

Thanks for replies. Thankfully I think this was my last question at least for a while.

Correct me if I'm wrong, so in simpler terms: Yes, ALL variable volt PV batteries lose around %15 of their true stated mahs because some of the mahs are used to power the actual micro chip (and/or other part(s)) that allow the PV to be variable voltage. I assume this %15 applies to variable watts too, and of course how much you use the ohm checker and menue dive etc etc.

A mechanical mod doesn't have variable volts. It will put out the volts of whatever the battery is made to put out (3.7v, 4.2V, etc) and does not take a %15 mah loss to power a microchip (or whatever is needing the %15 to make the PV variable volts). But the downside is that a mechanical mod battery will start decreasing in volts once the battery hits about %20 charge (not to mention you can't change volts without adding a Kick, which would take about %15 of the mahs if installed).


And, like David ^ said, they use two batteries because, like when stacking loose batteries, for some reason I don't really care about, it happens to increase the volts, so instead of having to boost the volts, the microchip filters it down which uses less battery than boosting it.

bleh, another question emerges: Stacking loose batteries is dangerous in a PV, but is it safe to assume the stacked batteries in the MVP have added protection that loose stacked batteries don't, and therefore don't pose a problem?

THANKS

 

[D4rk50ul]

They can lose a lot more than 15% in a mech mod if you use a super low resistance atomizer. Voltage is the same but the draw on the battery will kill it much faster. One of the very best batteries out there the Samsung INR18650-20R lasts only 6 minutes under full 20a load and it's rated at 2250mah I believe.

 

[DavidOck]

Yup, the higher the current draw, the faster the battery goes down.

This might provide some insight:
Notes on Batteries

 

[Ryedan]

bleh, another question emerges: Stacking loose batteries is dangerous in a PV, but is it safe to assume the stacked batteries in the MVP have added protection that loose stacked batteries don't, and therefore don't pose a problem?

THANKS

From my RC airplane hobby, I am pretty certain they are using a balancing circuit to make sure both cells reach the same voltage at end of charge. I have a bunch of lion batteries that are multi cell and that is how it's handled. If it's done right, the system should shut down when one cell's voltage gets low.

 

[Ryedan]

They can lose a lot more than 15% in a mech mod if you use a super low resistance atomizer. Voltage is the same but the draw on the battery will kill it much faster. One of the very best batteries out there the Samsung INR18650-20R lasts only 6 minutes under full 20a load and it's rated at 2250mah I believe.

That's just the battery being used faster because of the higher draw. There are no efficiency losses involved in a mechanical mod, other than resistance in the switch and connectors.

Yes, 6 minutes sounds about right for a 2.25 Ah battery seeing a 20 A draw.
2250 mAh = 2.25 amp hours.
At a 20 A load, 2.25 / 20 = 0.1125 hours = 6.75 minutes.

That's the problem when using the high discharge capabilities of small batteries, you can't do it for long

 

[McGarnagle]

They can lose a lot more than 15% in a mech mod if you use a super low resistance atomizer. Voltage is the same but the draw on the battery will kill it much faster. One of the very best batteries out there the Samsung INR18650-20R lasts only 6 minutes under full 20a load and it's rated at 2250mah I believe.

That is because you are dramatically increasing the amps used when you go to low resistance and keep the voltage the same (even if you keep the wattage the same you have increased the amps). I just responded in another thread about this. So yeah, battery life will decrease a ton because you just dramatically increased the amps used. Amps is what the battery is essentially storing.

I think this is about a 15% reduction in mah rating. I am not sure people understand what that means. When batteries are rated, they are done at a constant amperage over time and then rated for how many amps the device the device can continuously deliver for 1 hour. The problem is the relationship is not a linear one. For example, if something is rated for 1000 mah when tested at 1 amp for one hour you would theoretically get 30 minutes at 2 amps and 20 minutes at 3 amps. Yet it never works out that way because the relationship is never linear, and I believe that is what they are talking about when they say 15% loss under high amperage. In other words, if something is tested at 1 amp but the battery is normally used around 2 to 3 amps then the mah rating can be adjusted for that (and vice versa) if they have the mah rating vs. amps.

This is one way batteries ratings can be fudged some. You can test at your optimal amperage and then calculate the theoretical mah from that. That will give the highest mah. Yet many batteries will not perform anywhere near that number unless you always run your device at the amp setting they did the testing at. In other words, if 1 person tests a battery at 1 amp and another person tests the same battery at 3amps, they will get 2 different mah ratings. I believe that is what they are talking about here. At high currents the rating drops to 2210 even though the battery is rated at 2600 (most likely tested at a much lower amperage in order to get that rating).

edit: oops, I guess this was already replied to about the higher amps, but I guess the other stuff is still relevant to the discussion.