How much nicotine is destroyed during vaping ?

[exogenesis]

Yes, this started out as 'how much', but would like to know 'what' as well,
for these different conditions - it's possible there's more difference in the latter.

Almost certainly will have to be satisfied with the (fairly limited) existing GC/MS
tests done by various suppliers I guess.
Can't see any of us affording to do that individually.

Still, it's not impossible a do-able nicotine-specific test will present itself at some point.

 

[exogenesis]

Final result for the time-being:

6 mg/ml nicotine in PG, 2.2 ohm 510 atty under load = 3.93 V & 1.73 amps,
47.6 ml vaped & collected, contained 281.9 mg 'nicotine'
= 98.4 % recovery.

So no real trend with nic. 'loss' with nic. concentration

Not doing any further tests, think maybe I've exhausted all useful parameters,
apart from maybe the exhale ones later on....

BUT

One thing I did notice this time was a significant acidity in the bubbler trap,
(put one in-line just for completeness),
turns out it isn't anything to do with nicotine (obvious from titration curve shape),
but almost certainly heat breakdown products of PG.

Apparently you get an approximately equal ppm mixture of formate, acetate & lactate produced,
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build85/PDF/b85010.pdf
the first acid is fairly toxic, the others aren't really at low levels.
If significant copper metal is present you get mainly the lactate, but at a much higher level.
The breakdown can occur at well under 100'C but gets markedly greater with higher temperatures.

In this test ~50ml PG vaped gave an definitive acidity titre of ~2ml of 0.1M NaOH,
only equaling a ~0.03% breakdown.

Even if this was all formic acid it'd only equate to ~10 mg of formic acid for the 50ml PG.

'Personal protection' air exposure limit is 5ppm,
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/f5956.htm (I assume that means 5 mg per litre),
this test implies an upper degree of formic acid in vapour concentration of 10mg
in ~300 litres vapour = 0.03 ppm, so not a lot to worry about I guess/hope

(phew, glad that worked out good, rather than bad)



Also the atty started at 2.2 ohm, but ended up (17 hours & 50ml juice vaped later)
at 1.9 ohms. Current had increased during the test (to 2.01 amps).

Must admit I thought atty resistance increased as they 'aged', but if the resistance reduction
is typical then it promotes the 'sudden death syndrome' effect for well used atties.

 

[MetalPrincess]

I've never understood how the atty coil lives long at 6v. Yet , you dont read much of people complaining abt a high atty loss. Unless they've come to expect it.

Hmm, maybe it depends on where you tend to read on the forums. Tracked it once and the forum gets approx. 2,000+ posts per day--WAYY more than I could ever keep up with. Anyway, I've seen lots of comments about atty life with HV and the general response to "I just got xxx HV device and killed 2 (3,4,+) attys. What did I do wrong?" is "Nothing. That's just the way it is, be very careful about keeping the atty wet and don't expect more than a week or two at most...it's still cheaper than smoking." Also, it's usually recommended to stick with 510 or 801 attys (and preferable HV attys) and avoid 901s. Note, I have never used HV myself, just summing up the comments I've read from others.

 

[MetalPrincess]

BUT

One thing I did notice this time was a significant acidity in the bubbler trap,
(put one in-line just for completeness),
turns out it isn't anything to do with nicotine (obvious from titration curve shape),
but almost certainly heat breakdown products of PG.

Apparently you get an approximately equal ppm mixture of formate, acetate & lactate produced,
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build85/PDF/b85010.pdf
the first acid is fairly toxic, the others aren't really at low levels.
If significant copper metal is present you get mainly the lactate, but at a much higher level.
The breakdown can occur at well under 100'C but gets markedly greater with higher temperatures.

Do you think this would contribute to the greater throat hit frequently reported by HV users?

 

[exogenesis]

Doubt you'd even notice the PG breakdown acids at that level (I should hope),
probably the HV throat hit is just the greater nic./vapour amount ?

Still, they are there, wonder if it's worth getting a better fix on it.

 

[dubnluvn]

#1. Wow...impressive work and I hope it continues!

#2. I hope some suppliers are hooking you up with the juice/attys you are using for these tests.

#3. You should apply for a research grant!

 

[exogenesis]

Thanks dubnluvn,

I guess this sort of 'look see' testing is really just a matter of the
community finding things out for ourselves, can't see any suppliers
helping out since any info found could go in any direction, good or bad.

Although I've got to say results are remarkably more positive then I expected.

 

[MetalPrincess]

Doubt you'd even notice the PG breakdown acids at that level (I should hope),
probably the HV throat hit is just the greater nic./vapour amount ?

Still, they are there, wonder if it's worth getting a better fix on it.

Well, I haven't tried HV myself and don't really plan to at this point. Just had HV on the mind when I replied to Vaporer's comment and then read your post.

Lots of people comment that higher nic levels increase throat hit. This has been my experience as well--I find anything over about 24mg too harsh and usually stick to 19-21mg.
Lots of people who switch to HV comment on the huge TH and say they reduce nic levels, off the top of my head I'd say by about 1/3 to 1/2.
But it could be the warmer vapour and/or greater amount, I dunno, like I said I have no HV experience. Just had one of those 'what if' moments while reading.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I guess this sort of 'look see' testing is really just a matter of the
community finding things out for ourselves, can't see any suppliers
helping out since any info found could go in any direction, good or bad.

This forum was a wealth of information when I joined, but it's grown immensely in the technical area since then. You, DVap, Vaporer, mister, kinabaloo, so many have brought all this to a higher level. My hat's off to you, my friend. ...ok, gotta put it back on, now. Windy in here and my hair tangles easily.

 

[exogenesis]

Yup, this is a fun place to hobby in,
so many interesting topics to explore.

Sorry about the wind, must've been the roasted peppers.....

 

[Sun Vaporer]

nicotine   Carrier     Atomizer        volts   amps    ml             mg            %
(mg/ml)                (ohms)                           (collected    'nicotine'    recovery
                                                         vapour or    found
                                                         juice)         
 
70         PG         901 (3.?)        4.2     ?       4.75 (vapour)   308          93 **
 
 
70         Glycerol   901 (3.7)        3.5     0.9     6.74 (vapour)   357          91 **
 
 
18         PG         901 (3.4)        3.7     1.0     20.2 (vapour)   345          95
 
 
18         PG         -                -       -       20.2 (Juice)    365         101
 
 
36         PG         901 (3.4)         5.8     1.6     9.6  (vapour)  351         102
 
 
36         PG         510 (2.2)         3.9     1.7     6.5  (vapour)  238         101
                      (wet & cool)
 
 
36         PG         510 (2.2)         3.9     1.7     8.2  (vapour)  269          91
                      (dry & hot)
 
 
6          PG         510 (2.2)         3.9     1.7     47.6 (vapour)  282          98
                      (wettish/normal)

** less reliable than later results due to later improved vapour-collector design change.


So not really much 'nicotine' as %age is lost to combustion or deposition on coil,
no significant trends seen.


Except it looks like a good idea to keep atty coil 'wet & gurgling'
to keep it from starting to glow during a draw, even then > 90% came across.



Other observations:


Definately a small amount of acetic / lactic (or possibly formic) acid produced by vaping PG,
not enough to worry about by some margin.


The collected condensed vapour was sometimes clear & sometimes slightly cloudy,
not sure what the cause was.


The 'nicotine found column' relates to the of 'the main nitrogen' in nicotine (or possibly
nicotine-like compounds).


Can't really tell without sophisticated lab gear whether it
really is all actually nicotine, or substantially altered in any way (e.g. nic. oxide etc).

Updated per OP's Request---Thanks Exo!!


Sun

 

[exogenesis]

Thanks Sun

Hopefully having the results alltogether in the summary post (3rd in thread)
makes things clearer for first time reader.

Unless there's some unusual parameters anyone can think of,
I can't see any further ordinary tests being done, except maybe the exhale ones.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Thanks Sun

Hopefully having the results alltogether in the summary post (3rd in thread)
makes things clearer for first time reader.

Uh, exo..........

 

[Vaporer]

Nice presentation exo.
A lot of work there and it tells a definitive story.

Let the myths now end.

 

[exogenesis]

Yes,
can't see anyone saying there's little nicotine in vapour anymore,
I hope.

What's to be confused about TV ?

 

[DVap]

TV... read the far right column that says "% recovery".

If you're still confused, pop a snus, and all will be well.

 

[exogenesis]

Is that scroll bar causing a problem by 'hiding' the %ages?

If so I'll cut-down the table width at some point.


Pop a snus anyway TV - oh you already have

 

[slybootz]

whew! very nice work exo!

 

[boxhead]

what to bump this thread, lots of good info here.

a side note, kina`s last post was here, were any vaporers harmed in the collection of data?

 

[CES]

Fantastic thread. I'm one of the lurkers with nothing to add to the content- but thanks for the work you've put in.