How the media totally exaggerated study on risk of ‘Popcorn Lung’ from e-cigarettes

[pennysmalls]

Being blamed for the downfall of vaping, being antz, scare/fearmongering, perpetuating propaganda........

and the issue I am having is the constant snark directed toward those that do have genuine concerns about what is in their eliquids and fully believe diketones are an known avoidable risk, a risk many do not care to take. Given the studies we presently have, an issue of what is, rather than what if.

I can see how it will come off as snark to you. To me it's pointing out inconsistencies. For example why is there no uproar over the level of diketones in cigarettes? The levels found in cigarettes are so much higher and if the risk is real then smokers would be the ones in true danger. But not one peep from the media, TC or vapers about it? Why? Does that not seem backward to you? Because we no longer smoke should we then turn a blind eye and continue demanding that e-liquid be diketone free? Isn't that a bit hypocritical? To me, the perspective of those wanting diketone free juice is skewed/selfish.

 

[AndriaD]

I can see how it will come off as snark to you. To me it's pointing out inconsistencies. For example why is there no uproar over the level of diketones in cigarettes? The levels found in cigarettes are so much higher and if the risk is real then smokers would be the ones in true danger. But not one peep from the media, TC or vapers about it? Why? Does that not seem backward to you? Because we no longer smoke should we then turn a blind eye and continue demanding that e-liquid be diketone free? Isn't that a bit hypocritical? To me, the perspective of those wanting diketone free juice is skewed/selfish.

It's probably because the ANTZ think all smokers should die horribly anyway, so they don't care.

Andria

 

[pennysmalls]

It's probably because the ANTZ think all smokers should die horribly anyway, so they don't care.

Andria

I agree but, if the diketone issue is real and is dangerous where is the concern for smokers from vapers? If the risk is real then smokers are in true danger and at a level that should put the demand for diketone free eliquid down pretty low on the priority list. To be clear I don't believe in the scenario but for those who do believe in it I'd like to see some answers.

 

[YoursTruli]

I can see how it will come off as snark to you. To me it's pointing out inconsistencies. For example why is there no uproar over the level of diketones in cigarettes? The levels found in cigarettes are so much higher and if the risk is real then smokers would be the ones in true danger. But not one peep from the media, TC or vapers about it? Why? Does that not seem backward to you? Because we no longer smoke should we then turn a blind eye and continue demanding that e-liquid be diketone free? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

not at all, if we are really going to compare smoking to vaping....
I would think no uproar over the level of diketones in cigarettes by media is obvious as this is a war on vaping, new news, the war on smoking cigarettes has already been fought long and hard in the media, old news

no uproar from ex-smokers who are now vapers that have known for ages (largely from public media campaigns and through education) there are thousands of chemicals in cigarette tobacco and are well aware of the risks/dangers from smoking... the key difference (to me) being, aware, because if you are aware or made aware of something you can make an informed decision.
I have yet to see a call for all eliquids to be diketone free but rather a call for disclosure (awareness) if they are present or not in any given eliquid and in what amounts. I believe we have the right to know what is in our eliquids, period, and I also believe people should be made aware if there are also ingredients present that pose a potential known health risk, because if you are aware or made aware of something you can make an informed decision.

 

[skoony]

not at all, if we are really going to compare smoking to vaping....
I would think no uproar over the level of diketones in cigarettes by media is obvious as this is a war on vaping, new news, the war on smoking cigarettes has already been fought long and hard in the media, old news

Wrong,100%,wrong. The war on vaping is a continuation of the war on smoking. Our opponents
consider vaping and smoking to be the same thing. There is absolutely no doubt about it.
Regards
Mike

 

[pennysmalls]

not at all, if we are really going to compare smoking to vaping....
I would think no uproar over the level of diketones in cigarettes by media is obvious as this is a war on vaping, new news, the war on smoking cigarettes has already been fought long and hard in the media, old news

no uproar from ex-smokers who are now vapers that have known for ages (largely from public media campaigns and through education) there are thousands of chemicals in cigarette tobacco and are well aware of the risks/dangers from smoking... the key difference (to me) being, aware, because if you are aware or made aware of something you can make an informed decision.
I have yet to see a call for all eliquids to be diketone free but rather a call for disclosure (awareness) if they are present or not in any given eliquid and in what amounts. I believe we have the right to know what is in our eliquids, period, and I also believe people should be made aware if there are also ingredients present that pose a potential known health risk, because if you are aware or made aware of something you can make an informed decision.

Thanks for answering YoursTruli. I have seen vapers here on this forum calling for DA to be removed completely, that it doesn't belong in e liquid at all. I assumed you were one of them, I apologize. I haven't taken part in most of these discussions so I'm not clear on who believes what. I have no problem with disclosure requests, that seems fair and reasonable.

I have to agree with Skoony about the war on vaping being a continuation of the war on tobacco. The war on vaping seems more intense in that we have all these studies coming out making vaping out to be worse than smoking.

 

[Jman8]

and the issue I am having is the constant snark directed toward those that do have genuine concerns about what is in their eliquids and fully believe diketones are an known avoidable risk, a risk many do not care to take. Given the studies we presently have, an issue of what is, rather than what if.

It's not a known avoidable risk.

One could play this same game with any component of eCig. Say PG is a known risk for hair loss. Or VG is a known risk for imminent heart attacks. Some may fully believe this. But if going to espouse that, you might want to have something to back it up other than weak associative links. These links that exist for diketones are very weak. Perhaps one day they'll be stronger. When they are viable links, rather than supposition, that would be time to consider industry wide changes.

As it stands now, it is literally no different than fully believing all vapers inhale anti-freeze and all vapers are getting unhealthy amounts of formaldehyde from each puff.

If your concern was genuine and you were truly concerned for your own health, the avoidance would be removing vaping from your life. That would be reasonable, if the concern is truly genuine. Saying the industry must change based on an alleged risk does not make for a genuine concern.

 

[Racehorse]

You used vaping to quit smoking but you don't want to compare it with smoking? Now that you've quit? But it was ok before you quit and during the time that you were quitting?

I used vaping as harm reduction and to control my nicotine levels.

Again, you are of course, *aware* that many people are using vaping as NT (nicotine therapy) (for various health problems that appear to do well with nicotine), weight reduction, as well as harm reduction from smoking?

Many people, not just myself, esp. people who are never-smokers, happen to think that just about anything is better than smoking, which is why I said comparing any behavior to smoking is setting the bar very low.

I was quit for over 5 years already, using Chantix, but then fell off the wagon due to a tragedy in my family. Right at that time somebody told me about vaping and so I thought I'd give it a try (instead of just taking Chantix again, which worked very well for me). So I SWITCHED TO VAPING because it was something new, it seemed enjoyable, AND I wanted more control over my nicotine intake because I had already realized that I was addicted to the "behavior" of smoking, not really nicotine, so I decided not to use other forms of NRT.

So yes, as I continue to vape (mostly 0%-3% nic) the more interested I am in what exactly the risks are.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to get that information, esp. in a non-political format.

I don't care for regulation, and I don't care if other people wish to vape diacetyls, or sub ohm or high temps or nickel etc.

 

[AndriaD]

It's not a known avoidable risk.

One could play this same game with any component of eCig. Say PG is a known risk for hair loss. Or VG is a known risk for imminent heart attacks. Some may fully believe this. But if going to espouse that, you might want to have something to back it up other than weak associative links. These links that exist for diketones are very weak. Perhaps one day they'll be stronger. When they are viable links, rather than supposition, that would be time to consider industry wide changes.

As it stands now, it is literally no different than fully believing all vapers inhale anti-freeze and all vapers are getting unhealthy amounts of formaldehyde from each puff.

If your concern was genuine and you were truly concerned for your own health, the avoidance would be removing vaping from your life. That would be reasonable, if the concern is truly genuine. Saying the industry must change based on an alleged risk does not make for a genuine concern.

I still disagree with you. It is NOT reasonable to discontinue vaping when you know that will cause you to return to smoking -- but it's entirely reasonable to start making your own ejuice, with carefully chosen ingredients. I said above that I want to mitigate my risks as far as possible -- discontinuing vaping would NOT do that, as it would mean I would return to smoking, a far greater risk -- because it is not POSSIBLE for me to abstain from smoking if I don't vape. It is also not POSSIBLE for me to continue vaping happily if there is not some flavor in my vape, and if I am not happy with my vape, there's a very strong likelihood that I would succumb to the temptation to smoke.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

I still disagree with you. It is NOT reasonable to discontinue vaping when you know that will cause you to return to smoking -- but it's entirely reasonable to start making your own ejuice, with carefully chosen ingredients. I said above that I want to mitigate my risks as far as possible -- discontinuing vaping would NOT do that, as it would mean I would return to smoking, a far greater risk -- because it is not POSSIBLE for me to abstain from smoking if I don't vape. It is also not POSSIBLE for me to continue vaping happily if there is not some flavor in my vape, and if I am not happy with my vape, there's a very strong likelihood that I would succumb to the temptation to smoke.

Andria

And I disagree that it would CAUSE you to return to smoking. A temptation to smoke does not equal causation. I get that you would likely smoke if you for some reason couldn't vape. But if truly concerned for health, and sought avoidance of harm/potential harm, you'd do neither. You are making case that with the teeny tiny amount of harm that comes from vaping flavors, if not possible for you, means you would choose something that (you think) is more harmful.

IMO, you'll never have to face that temptation due to some future reality where you are not allowed to vape (but only allowed to smoke).

 

[AndriaD]

And I disagree that it would CAUSE you to return to smoking. A temptation to smoke does not equal causation. I get that you would likely smoke if you for some reason couldn't vape. But if truly concerned for health, and sought avoidance of harm/potential harm, you'd do neither. You are making case that with the teeny tiny amount of harm that comes from vaping flavors, if not possible for you, means you would choose something that (you think) is more harmful.

IMO, you'll never have to face that temptation due to some future reality where you are not allowed to vape (but only allowed to smoke).

Being concerned for health doesn't equal the ability to abstain from things that harm it -- a fact you don't seem to really get, along with all the ANTZ who constantly gave me the 'why don't you just quit?' idiocy.

I'm making the case that it's not reasonable to quit vaping when I can simply be more careful with mky ejuice by making it myself. Perfectly healthy? Nothing in life is, but this is the BEST POSSIBLE choice I can make, because yes, if I didn't vape, I would return to smoking -- if not within a week, then certainly within a month. Been down that road too many times already.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

Being concerned for health doesn't equal the ability to abstain from things that harm it -- a fact you don't seem to really get, along with all the ANTZ who constantly gave me the 'why don't you just quit?' idiocy.

Depends on your level of concern. If not going to abstain, then there are acceptable risks, even known harms accepted. Thus concern for health is not paramount. With regards to diketones, it ought to be non-issue, or about as much of an issue as possibility of vaping high amounts of formaldehyde. IOW, diketones (at the levels we use) are not a known harm, and aren't even in category currently of known risk. There is potential risk with every aspect of vaping. IMO, you fully get that point.

 

[AndriaD]

Depends on your level of concern. If not going to abstain, then there are acceptable risks, even known harms accepted. Thus concern for health is not paramount. With regards to diketones, it ought to be non-issue, or about as much of an issue as possibility of vaping high amounts of formaldehyde. IOW, diketones (at the levels we use) are not a known harm, and aren't even in category currently of known risk. There is potential risk with every aspect of vaping. IMO, you fully get that point.

Concern for health is pretty paramount, since quitting vaping would mean I return to smoking -- which would be a big giant step in the wrong direction! One has to work with what is POSSIBLE -- for me, abstaining from smoking without vaping is simply not possible, not at all. Maybe in 5 or 10 yrs, MAYBE, but certainly not anytime soon. And without flavor, it wouldn't be possible for me to enjoy vaping, so I probably wouldn't do it -- thus back to smoking.

In a perfect world, no one would do anything unhealthful. It's a long way from a perfect world, and I'm a long way from a perfect person. For me, the best possible thing to do is to continue vaping, with flavor, because that keeps me from smoking; making my own ejuice keeps me from *most* "bad" stuff. Probably. A small amount of uncertainty doesn't distress me, when I know I'm avoiding all the REALLY bad stuff in cigarettes.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

Concern for health is pretty paramount, since quitting vaping would mean I return to smoking -- which would be a big giant step in the wrong direction! One has to work with what is POSSIBLE -- for me, abstaining from smoking without vaping is simply not possible, not at all. Maybe in 5 or 10 yrs, MAYBE, but certainly not anytime soon. And without flavor, it wouldn't be possible for me to enjoy vaping, so I probably wouldn't do it -- thus back to smoking.

In a perfect world, no one would do anything unhealthful. It's a long way from a perfect world, and I'm a long way from a perfect person. For me, the best possible thing to do is to continue vaping, with flavor, because that keeps me from smoking; making my own ejuice keeps me from *most* "bad" stuff. Probably. A small amount of uncertainty doesn't distress me, when I know I'm avoiding all the REALLY bad stuff in cigarettes.

Andria

I hear you, and feel your emphasis helps make the case I'm arguing for stronger. To the degree it does not depends on how viable of a risk is inhaling diketones at the levels we do.

And I'm compelled to ask when (not if) the chicken littles note another component of eLiquid is 'really bad stuff' then what? While this is supposition, it is addressing the issue of diketones which is also supposition. It's the honest realization from a politically aware vaper that this type of fear mongering will not end with diketones in eLiquid, nor did it start with that. Also includes the honest realization that we currently have as much knowledge on 'potential risks' from diketones as we do on the alternatives, including unflavored. Therefore, when we are in debate mode on this type of tangent, I feel all that is fair game for anyone that is arguing the case for juice ingredient management as if it ought to apply industry wide.

 

[AndriaD]

I hear you, and feel your emphasis helps make the case I'm arguing for stronger. To the degree it does not depends on how viable of a risk is inhaling diketones at the levels we do.

And I'm compelled to ask when (not if) the chicken littles note another component of eLiquid is 'really bad stuff' then what? While this is supposition, it is addressing the issue of diketones which is also supposition. It's the honest realization from a politically aware vaper that this type of fear mongering will not end with diketones in eLiquid, nor did it start with that. Also includes the honest realization that we currently have as much knowledge on 'potential risks' from diketones as we do on the alternatives, including unflavored. Therefore, when we are in debate mode on this type of tangent, I feel all that is fair game for anyone that is arguing the case for juice ingredient management as if it ought to apply industry wide.

Actually I agree, and as I've said many times, my own avoidance of diketones isn't because I really believe they're that dangerous; it has more to do with my own health (asthma), my own psyche (hypochondria and anxiety), and the fact that if I was *knowingly* vaping diketones, even the smallest asthma attack could escalate, thx to that hypochondria and anxiety (the latter of which is a big factor with asthma attacks), to something that required hospitalization, which I can't afford. It also has to do with magnitude of possible outcome -- even if it's a 1 in a million chance of lung destruction, I'd rather not go there. 1 in 1000 or 1 in 100 chance of lung irritation -- such as might occur with PG, or flavors in general, or butyric acid -- I'll risk that; irritation is reversible; destruction is not.

Any other chicken-little scares, I would address on their merits, as I did the antifreeze and formaldehyde blather -- critical thinking. I am not a sucker for media hysteria; I rarely ever even watch the news by accident, it's just too silly -- even TV weather is a crap-shoot; I'd rather look at the radar on weather.com and make my own best-guess. Which is all they're doing!

Andria

 

[Kent C]

even if it's a 1 in a million chance of lung destruction

Understood. However, almost any drug taken these days to help a condition, has side effects that are even lower than that for some serious 'side effects' - seizure, hair loss, heart disturbances, liver, kidney (NSAIDS). There are always tradeoffs.

The whole thing about this subject is what I said originally way back on the Dr. F thread - IF you have concern - test eliquids yourself or have it done to your satisfaction OR make vendors produce test docs to your satisfaction. Vendors should (if they want business from those concerned) do their own or subcontract out testing and show and validate as well as possible the results. Some won't believe them even then - those should do their own testing. Vendors who advertise as 'diketone free' and are not, should be up for fraud. Those who need certain flavors to continue to vape, should do so. I encourage certain consumer groups to provide data, but there should be no gov't regulations regarding it. Something that Dr. F himself has said or implied a few times now.

 

[AndriaD]

Understood. However, almost any drug taken these days to help a condition, has side effects that are even lower than that for some serious 'side effects' - seizure, hair loss, heart disturbances, liver, kidney (NSAIDS). There are always tradeoffs.

The whole thing about this subject is what I said originally way back on the Dr. F thread - IF you have concern - test eliquids yourself or have it done to your satisfaction OR make vendors produce test docs to your satisfaction. Vendors should (if they want business from those concerned) do their own or subcontract out testing and show and validate as well as possible the results. Some won't believe them even then - those should do their own testing. Vendors who advertise as 'diketone free' and are not, should be up for fraud. Those who need certain flavors to continue to vape, should do so. I encourage certain consumer groups to provide data, but there should be no gov't regulations regarding it. Something that Dr. F himself has said or implied a few times now.

I agree, though my own solution is to simply DIY and pay close attention to the flavors I choose; I have a lot of other good reasons for DIYing (cost, high-PG, WTA, need it strong and sweet), so for me it makes the most sense. It also saves a lot of worry over whether I'm being lied to; I feel that choosing to trust flavor makers is a better gamble than trusting ejuice makers. Still a gamble though, just one that I feel more comfortable with.

I already posted my feelings on Dr F's "Everyone agrees..." silliness. He may be on our side; he may be a hallacious scientist; but he can't argue rationally for crap.

Andria