in the saint paul pioneer press today

[skoony]

hi all,
this was in the paper today.i'm not to sure what the exact point of the story was.
seems to state ecigs are way expensive and are still bad for you.something
like that anyway.

E-cigarettes: fresh air or smoke and mirrors? - TwinCities.com

regards
mike

 

[Tedlee]

I thought that was a pretty neutral piece. I didn't feel the urge to go ballistic on the news media!

 

[skoony]

I thought that was a pretty neutral piece. I didn't feel the urge to go ballistic on the news media!

i agree nothing terribly exiting.the saint paul pioneer depressed is my home town paper.
its slightly less liberal than the rag across the river.the minneapolis star and trombone.
regards
mike

 

[AgentAnia]

I read it as a fairly neutral article overall, but I did post a comment that, as long as one isn't into the more expensive devices, vaping can save a lot of money... (This for the readers who might be discouraged from trying ecigs because of perceived expense.)

 

[Kent C]

I read it as a fairly neutral article overall, but I did post a comment that, as long as one isn't into the more expensive devices, vaping can save a lot of money... (This for the readers who might be discouraged from trying ecigs because of perceived expense.)

I thought the same..... in fact, one of the reasons kids may be buying ecigs is that they are in the long run MUCH cheaper than cigarettes. And by analogy, we could use 'that taxes and regulations are actually an attack on low income people'. Where is the outrage from a certain segment of the population that purports to 'care' about them on this issue?!?!

The ANTZ are using kids as a 'human shield' for their taxes and regulations, but are burdening (and killing) low income people by taking away a much less expensive and healthier choice for nicotine!


ATR Opposes Governor Beshear's Tax Hikes on Traditional Cigarettes and E-Cigarettes | Americans for Tax Reform

"I write today in opposition to all efforts to increase cigarette and e-cigarette taxes in Kentucky. Governor Steve Beshear’s “Kentucky Competes” tax reform plan includes both. His proposal increases the per pack tax on cigarettes from 60 cents to $1 dollar and creates a 20 percent excise tax on all e-cigarettes. Not only are these proposals punitive for low-income individuals, they make little sense."

.... by one of the most hated people from 'a certain segment of the population that purports to 'care' about them'.. Grover Norquist of Americans for Tax Reform.

 

[Vocalek]

You may have spotted the story in the Pioneer Press, but it is syndicated by the Associated Press. Google the title and you will find dozens of newspapers and online news sites that carried the story today. Reading it, I was having feelings of deja vu and wondering if the AP was running an old piece.

So I went searching for Talia Eisenberg and e-cigarettes and came up with several hits. Here's a story from January: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/nyregion/e-cigarette-shops-open-even-as-city-cracks-down.html?_r=0

It's not exactly the same story, just the same subject matter.

 

[skoony]

You may have spotted the story in the Pioneer Press, but it is syndicated by the Associated Press. Google the title and you will find dozens of newspapers and online news sites that carried the story today. Reading it, I was having feelings of deja vu and wondering if the AP was running an old piece.

So I went searching for Talia Eisenberg and e-cigarettes and came up with several hits. Here's a story from January: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/nyregion/e-cigarette-shops-open-even-as-city-cracks-down.html?_r=0

It's not exactly the same story, just the same subject matter.

your right vocalek of course.just showing a little civic pride as its my home town paper.
you see we can be status quo here in fly over land too.regards
mike

 

[Vocalek]

your right vocalek of course.just showing a little civic pride as its my home town paper.
you see we can be status quo here in fly over land too.regards
mike

No problem, Mike. I lived in Rosemont, MN for five years.

 

[DrMA]

WOW! Grover Norquist on our side
"with e-cigarettes, the free market has provided a solution to a problem that social engineers have not been able to address through stiff government regulations. The imposition of new taxes on these products perpetuates an issue lawmakers have spent so much time trying to eliminate, as e-cigarettes cut down on smoking and people’s dependence on tobacco cigarettes.

The cigarette and e-cigarette tax hikes are shameless cash grabs that make little sense from a revenue or public health perspective. "

 

[AgentAnia]

..........

 

[Fulgurant]

I thought the same..... in fact, one of the reasons kids may be buying ecigs is that they are in the long run MUCH cheaper than cigarettes. And by analogy, we could use 'that taxes and regulations are actually an attack on low income people'. Where is the outrage from a certain segment of the population that purports to 'care' about them on this issue?!?!

In the same place the outrage skulks, undernourished and unemployed, when those same self-proclaimed populists advocate taxes on cigarettes, fuel, alcohol, food products. If you find it, let me know, because from where I'm sitting, it sure doesn't look like populist outrage actually exists except in campaign ads. Apparently, the so-called populists don't really want better lives for the poor. Rather, they want a large population of obedient and long-lived servants to oil the machinery that empowers the elite.

And if that means that the servants must lead gray, joyless lives, then so be it. All the better, in fact, because a society free from the distractions of personal happiness and self-worth will leap at the chance to pile on the scapegoat du jour, and thus to facilitate the schemes of the scapegoaters.

On that note, smile at the camera, vapers, and say, "Baaaaaa."

 

[Anjaffm]

That is not a bad article, as far as articles go

And I just love this letter by ATR:
ATR Opposes Governor Beshear's Tax Hikes on Traditional Cigarettes and E-Cigarettes | Americans for Tax Reform
Thank you very much for posting this, Kent C!

Furthermore, the last thing that those who seek to combat smoking should want is the commonwealth increasing its reliance on tobacco tax revenue.

The proposal to create a 20 percent excise tax on e-cigarettes is particularly troubling. A number of studies have shown that electronic cigarettes stand to improve health and prevent disease. By choosing to “vape” e-cigs instead of smoking traditional tobacco, consumers get their nicotine fix without the combustion and smoke, which are responsible for many of the negative health effects of tobacco cigarettes.

A person with brains! A person who makes sense! WOW!
Is there hope for the human race after all?

 

[Kent C]

In the same place the outrage skulks, undernourished and unemployed, when those same self-proclaimed populists advocate taxes on cigarettes, fuel, alcohol, food products. If you find it, let me know, because from where I'm sitting, it sure doesn't look like populist outrage actually exists except in campaign ads. Apparently, the so-called populists don't really want better lives for the poor. Rather, they want a large population of obedient and long-lived servants to oil the machinery that empowers the elite.

And if that means that the servants must lead gray, joyless lives, then so be it. All the better, in fact, because a society free from the distractions of personal happiness and self-worth will leap at the chance to pile on the scapegoat du jour, and thus to facilitate the schemes of the scapegoaters.

On that note, smile at the camera, vapers, and say, "Baaaaaa."

"Populism" is a lie. It sells better than "just another variation of socialism."

"Both “socialism” and “fascism” involve the issue of property rights. The right to property is the right of use and disposal. Observe the difference in those two theories: socialism negates private property rights altogether, and advocates “the vesting of ownership and control” in the community as a whole, i.e., in the state; fascism leaves ownership in the hands of private individuals, but transfers control of the property to the government.

"Ownership without control is a contradiction in terms: it means “property,” without the right to use it or to dispose of it. It means that the citizens retain the responsibility of holding property, without any of its advantages, while the government acquires all the advantages without any of the responsibility.

"In this respect, socialism is the more honest of the two theories. I say “more honest,” not “better”—because, in practice, there is no difference between them: both come from the same collectivist-statist principle, both negate individual rights and subordinate the individual to the collective, both deliver the livelihood and the lives of the citizens into the power of an omnipotent government—and the differences between them are only a matter of time, degree, and superficial detail, such as the choice of slogans by which the rulers delude their enslaved subjects."

A.Rand Capitalism the Unknown Ideal

 

[Anjaffm]

@Kent C:
What an excellent posting, thank you very much!

And yes, this is happening right now, in your country, sadly:

fascism leaves ownership in the hands of private individuals, but transfers control of the property to the government.

Remember smoking bans in pubs, bars and restaurants? How is private property a "public" place, please?
And more recently, remember smoking bans in a person's own home? In a home that that person paid for with their own money, which they worked for and paid taxes on? (And don't anybody try to give me that "it is only in condominiums". A condominium is an apartment which a person purchases and then owns. It is private property. And you better remember it is private property when the government comes to collect property tax.)

 

[Kent C]

That is not a bad article, as far as articles go

And I just love this letter by ATR:
ATR Opposes Governor Beshear's Tax Hikes on Traditional Cigarettes and E-Cigarettes | Americans for Tax Reform
Thank you very much for posting this, Kent C!



A person with brains! A person who makes sense! WOW!
Is there hope for the human race after all?

So true... "Furthermore, the last thing that those who seek to combat smoking should want is the commonwealth increasing its reliance on tobacco tax revenue."

In the US, tobacco tax is a major factor in the CHIP program - Children's Health Insurance designed to cover uninsured children in families with incomes that are modest but too high to qualify for Medicaid. Since a larger percent of smokers are the lower income, it's almost a direct tax on the working poor or near poor

Funding S-CHIP with Federal Cigarette Tax Increase is Poor Tax Policy | Tax Foundation

 

[Kent C]

@Kent C:
What an excellent posting, thank you very much!

And yes, this is happening right now, in your country, sadly:



Remember smoking bans in pubs, bars and restaurants? How is private property a "public" place, please?
And more recently, remember smoking bans in a person's own home? In a home that that person paid for with their own money, which they worked for and paid taxes on? (And don't anybody try to give me that "it is only in condominiums". A condominium is an apartment which a person purchases and then owns. It is private property. And you better remember it is private property when the government comes to collect property tax.)

I just want to say, I missed you when I was on vacation and came back and you hadn't been posting in this forum, but I see you were posting in other forums. Glad to see you back here!

It is happening in our country as well, of course.... and they get by again, lying about what is 'public' and what is 'private' OR by conflating two definitions of 'public' - one that means 'gov't property' and the other 'where people hang out' And unfortunately, they Rely on the fact that their constituents do not know the difference. It's why 'education' (along these lines) is the ultimate solution.

And also, imo, why a principled argument - 'I have the right to do x, as long as it doesn't violate your right' is better than the pragmatic listing of statistics and bs 'facts' that can be cooked, stroked, lied about or simply made up without any facts, knowing full well almost everyone hearing them will buy into them if they're written with enough certainty and/or authority.

 

[sonicdsl]

Just a reminder...

hi all,
this was in the paper today.i'm not to sure what the exact point of the story was.
seems to state ecigs are way expensive and are still bad for you.something
like that anyway.

E-cigarettes: fresh air or smoke and mirrors? - TwinCities.com

regards
mike

 

[Anjaffm]

In the US, tobacco tax is a major factor in the CHIP program - Children's Health Insurance designed to cover uninsured children in families with incomes that are modest but too high to qualify for Medicaid. Since a larger percent of smokers are the lower income, it's almost a direct tax on the working poor or near poor

Funding S-CHIP with Federal Cigarette Tax Increase is Poor Tax Policy | Tax Foundation

Wow! So the much-vilified smokers actually smoke "for the children"? Just wow!
Great link, by the way! There are actually people who make sense. And who have good sense. Thank you for posting this!

Oh, and does this sound familiar?

Of course, some anti-smoking activists use the children argument merely as a cover for pushing restrictions on tobacco use for everyone, adults included.

Now, where have we vapers heard that before?

/edit:
sorry, sonicdsl.
For me, those facts are very interesting. I was not familiar with those.

But I do agree that the article in the OP is quite nice, as far as articles about vaping go.

 

[Fulgurant]

"Both “socialism” and “fascism” involve the issue of property rights. The right to property is the right of use and disposal. Observe the difference in those two theories: socialism negates private property rights altogether, and advocates “the vesting of ownership and control” in the community as a whole, i.e., in the state; fascism leaves ownership in the hands of private individuals, but transfers control of the property to the government."

“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
― George Orwell, Animal Farm

 

[Kent C]

“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
― George Orwell, Animal Farm

Despite his 'orientation' he did get some things right and a way that communicated the concepts