Inhaling METAL??? I'm soooo worried..

[mpkeith]

My fiancée (or is it fiancee, whatever she) sent me this on FB: http://www.theindychannel.com/news...nt it just pm me. sent from right here...

 

[edyle]

"some" is a vague word.

I'm sure there's some copper and some nickel in the food you ate today.

 

[MorpheusPA]

Mind you, inhalation of metal particles is not good for you. Even if the metals in question are of pretty low toxicity--neither nickel nor copper will harm you in tiny amounts directly, but getting stuck in the lungs is, over time, a recipe for problems.

Without seeing the actual study, I can't comment. Talbot, however, has done some really shady things and it calls into question everything else she's done. Fruit from the poisoned tree and all that.

 

[edyle]

The first test was done on the e-cigarette, "Smoking Everywhere Platinum.” It's made in China and available online.

It’s distributed out of Florida across the United States.

Results

During the testing, the liquid that is heated and turns into a vapor is put inside a centrifuge and spun. The end product: a small metal pellet.

"There is quite a bit of tin, most of this material is composed of tin," Dr. Talbot said. "There is also some oxygen, some copper and some nickel."

The electronic microscope revealed the solder used to cover the wires inside of the e-cigarette could be the reason for the tin.

“A lot of the solder seems to have come off, some of it has spread and come off and melted on the side,” Dr. Talbot said. "I think the fact there is significant amount of tin in these pellets is important. This means the people using this product are going to be inhaling the tin," she said.

Ok, that one was an eyebrow raiser; it is something to be concerned about: the use of solder, especially on or near the heating coil.

For the second test, Dr. Talbot's team looked at the Mistic e-cigarette, a brand reporters purchased at a local drug store.

In the “spin” test, no tin was found because there were no solder joints used in this brand.

Not all ecigs are going to have solder.

The Feds weigh in

The FDA's Center for tobacco Products began regulating tobacco products in 2009. That regulation does not include e-cigarettes unless the device is used as approved for therapeutic purposes.

If the Center wants to regulate anything else as a "tobacco product," like e-cigarettes, it has to propose a rule and solicit public comment to the Office of Management of Budget, Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. It did just that on Oct. 1, 2013.

Now this again brings to mind the completely wrong approach that the FDA has to ecigs; they should for example, be looking at the use of solder inside the ecig.

 

[mpkeith]

Actually, I've been more concerned about lead in solder than anything. I agree that inhaling METAL particles (and innumerable other particulate matters) is not at all healthy. However, comparing what we know about commercial tobacco products versus what we know about vaping... Inhaling the metals from this 'study' is (at this point) far less risky. That's not to say in the future it could be shown that vaping has drawbacks. I'll take my chances.


sent from right here...

 

[edyle]

Actually, I've been more concerned about lead in solder than anything. I agree that inhaling METAL particles (and innumerable other particulate matters) is not at all healthy. However, comparing what we know about commercial tobacco products versus what we know about vaping... Inhaling the metals from this 'study' is (at this point) far less risky. That's not to say in the future it could be shown that vaping has drawbacks. I'll take my chances.


sent from right here...

For those of use who change coils alot, and for people who use cartos, it is relevant whether there's any soldered joints in there.

I ordered some of those nr-r-nr premade coils from fasttech and now I'm thinking I'm going to make sure and test those on a soldering iron to see if they're just soldered and not welded.

 

[MorpheusPA]

Ok, that one was an eyebrow raiser; it is something to be concerned about: the use of solder, especially on or near the heating coil.

To render the solder able to be turned out by the centrifuge, one of two things happened:

1) Our liquids are a solvent for lead-free solder. Hint: they aren't.
2) Prue heated the thing dry to the point where the solder melted and then vaporized. You know, something we would never do in use because it would:
a) Taste absolutely awful
b) Give you a mouthful of molten metal

Not all ecigs are going to have solder.

Mine does not, the wire is held in place by pressure (a Kanger T3).

[Now this again brings to mind the completely wrong approach that the FDA has to ecigs; they should for example, be looking at the use of solder inside the ecig.

This, too. Additionally, I need to see an analysis of her testing methods to see how, exactly, an appreciable enough amount of metal got into the vapor. Because you taste copper in the PPM range and it's, frankly, rank.

 

[MorpheusPA]

Actually, I've been more concerned about lead in solder than anything. I agree that inhaling METAL particles (and innumerable other particulate matters) is not at all healthy. However, comparing what we know about commercial tobacco products versus what we know about vaping... Inhaling the metals from this 'study' is (at this point) far less risky. That's not to say in the future it could be shown that vaping has drawbacks. I'll take my chances.


sent from right here...

I'll take my chances, too.

What I want is a flat playing field where data is actually valid, instead of what I suspect is happening. It happens that I suspect she's using an automatic inhalation device that's overheating the carto (and in her case, I also happen to think that's intentional).

 

[edyle]

To render the solder able to be turned out by the centrifuge, one of two things happened:

1) Our liquids are a solvent for lead-free solder. Hint: they aren't.
2) Prue heated the thing dry to the point where the solder melted and then vaporized. You know, something we would never do in use because it would:
a) Taste absolutely awful
b) Give you a mouthful of molten metal



Mine does not, the wire is held in place by pressure (a Kanger T3).



This, too. Additionally, I need to see an analysis of her testing methods to see how, exactly, an appreciable enough amount of metal got into the vapor. Because you taste copper in the PPM range and it's, frankly, rank.

At first I thought they vaporized the liquid and tested the resulting vapor product, however as a result of reading your response when I read the op over to quote from it, it says:

During the testing, the liquid that is heated and turns into a vapor is put inside a centrifuge and spun. The end product: a small metal pellet.

Which strictly speaking states that they tested the liquid, not the vapor; which raises yet another puzzle, because it means the liquid contained solid metal in it, and not dissolved metal ???

Either way, I would not have expected to find any significant amount of metal to be present in the vapor because most metals would become deposited as the gunk of salts that ends up on the coil after use.

 

[Fulgurant]

At first I thought they vaporized the liquid and tested the resulting vapor product, however as a result of reading your response when I read the op over to quote from it, it says:

Which strictly speaking states that they tested the liquid, not the vapor; which raises yet another puzzle, because it means the liquid contained solid metal in it, and not dissolved metal ???

Either way, I would not have expected to find any significant amount of metal to be present in the vapor because most metals would become deposited as the gunk of salts that ends up on the coil after use.

The statement is poorly written, no doubt, but Morpheus' interpretation appears to be correct: Talbot fired the ecig to vaporize the liquid, then funneled the vapor into a centrifuge. If she had put the liquid, unvaporized, into the centrifuge, then her comments about different heating elements (soldered versus unsoldered wires - quoted below) would have been irrelevant.

For the second test, Dr. Talbot's team looked at the Mistic e-cigarette, a brand reporters purchased at a local drug store.

In the “spin” test, no tin was found because there were no solder joints used in this brand.

Like Morpheus, I'm going to have to assume that our old friend Prue fired the first e-cig until the coil melted. It's impossible to say without a closer reading of the study, but her result seems implausible on its face otherwise.

Still and all, I never liked those resistance/non-resistance coils -- have never used them, either. Most ecigs on the market don't use them, as far as I know.

 

[Nermal]

I tend to stick with things I'm good at, and I'm very good at worrying. This isn't even on the radar.

 

[rothenbj]

Funny no mention of cadmium, nickel or lead. There are plenty more associated with cigarette-

Metals in Medicine and the Environment

Why not compare those found in e cigs to those in regular cigarettes and say the normal polution you find on a city street?

 

[Kent C]

Funny no mention of cadmium, nickel or lead. There are plenty more associated with cigarette-

Metals in Medicine and the Environment

Why not compare those found in e cigs to those in regular cigarettes and say the normal polution you find on a city street?

Or just vitamins and minerals - iron!! zinc! selenium!! (look that one up)....

 

[sonicdsl]

Here's an analysis of that "report" from our friend Dr. Siegel:

http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2013/04/new-study-sounds-alarm-about-metals.html

 

[edyle]

Here's an analysis of that "report" from our friend Dr. Siegel:

http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2013/04/new-study-sounds-alarm-about-metals.html

Here is the rest of the story:

This study reported a nickel level of 0.005 micrograms in 10 puffs of the electronic cigarette vapor.

The Nicorette nicotine inhaler was found to contain nickel at a level of 0.013 micrograms per 10 puffs.

Thus, the level of nickel in the electronic cigarette vapor was 2.6 times lower than in an FDA-approved nicotine inhaler.

The study reported a lead level of 0.017 micrograms in 10 puffs of the electronic cigarette vapor.

The Nicorette nicotine inhaler was found to contain lead at a level of 0.003 micrograms per 10 puffs.

Thus, the level of lead in the electronic cigarette vapor was 5.7 times higher than in an FDA-approved nicotine inhaler.

However, it should be noted that only one brand of electronic cigarette was tested in this study, and in the Goniewicz et al. study, 12 brands were tested and only one had a lead level substantially higher than present in the Nicorette inhaler.

geez the other article described a "pellet" which gives the impression of something like buckshot sized but I guess they meant that it looked like a pellet under a microscope.

 

[jwark]

Mind you, inhalation of metal particles is not good for you. Even if the metals in question are of pretty low toxicity

I'm not sure how true that statement is. The FDA allows for certain amounts metals to be used in inhalants. Not that I necessarily trust the FDA but I really don't believe your statement is proven.

 

[edyle]

I'm not sure how true that statement is. The FDA allows for certain amounts metals to be used in inhalants. Not that I necessarily trust the FDA but I really don't believe your statement is proven.

I'm just waiting to see who's smart enough to make ecigs and eliquids that they can stamp boldly on the package:
"Meets all applicable FDA standards"

The keyword being 'applicable' of course.

Alot of hardware comes stamped "CE" which as I understand it, is a sort of semi voluntary approval/standards system used in the EU where they have their published standards, and when manufacturers on their own produce stuff manufactured in compliance with these standards the manufacturer stamps them "CE" - which does not mean that they are approved or anything, it just means that the manufacturer CLAIMS that the product meets the standards applicable; if the product is found to not be complaint then I guess the manufacturer will have a problem, but the thing is the manufacturer doesn't have to wait for approval, he just needs to follow the standards.

 

[MorpheusPA]

I'm not sure how true that statement is. The FDA allows for certain amounts metals to be used in inhalants. Not that I necessarily trust the FDA but I really don't believe your statement is proven.

Excessive amounts, yes. The amounts ol' dumb Prue found, no. Since I couldn't find the original, I didn't realize the teeny tiny amounts she was talking about.

 

[DrMA]

I'm not sure how true that statement is. The FDA allows for certain amounts metals to be used in inhalants. Not that I necessarily trust the FDA but I really don't believe your statement is proven.

I'm afraid that's incorrect. FDA regs provide non-zero maximum allowable limits for many contaminants in many food and pharmaceutical products, including allowable quantities of trace metals in drugs, diethylene glycol in tooth paste, rat parts in peanut butter, and insect parts in flour among other things.

 

[AgentAnia]

Bear in mind that the "Smoking Everywhere Platinum" ecig has not been on the market for years. In fact, Smoking Everywhere is no longer is business. One wonders where the Truebot got her samples...