Kick question

[sawlight]

Rick, (and others), can you describe the effect of PWM versus DC and how it bothers you?

i realize others have posted that the kick doesn't use PWM, so i guess i'm sorta kinda thread-jacking, and just throwing this question out there.

as a retired engineer, i can't wrap my head around why PWM is bad or suboptimal. (other than the occasional aural rattlesnake thingy). i can't believe it affects heating up a freakin piece of wire. maybe DC will heat it up milliseconds sooner than PWM, but that's about it, IMHO.

i have designed circuits that probably would have performed suboptimally with PWM than direct DC, but we're just talking about a piece of wire in PVs. can anyone point me to a toaster that uses DC instead of AC (which is sorta-kinda like PWM) ? does a DC toaster toast your bread better???

sorry, if this seems antagonistic. and for all i know, you meant the aural rattlesnake thingy. i'd just like someone to explain why PWM is so bad, as far as vape goes. i would like to understand the science behind why people think PWM is bad. maybe an explanation has been posted before, but i missed it.

thanks

ETA: i have no dog in this hunt. i mainly use mechs. really just trying to understand. also, i trust a few people in this thread more than i trust pbusardo, and what i think are spme of his silly oscope tests

The thing with PWM is it cycles from 0 to 6v to simulate the set voltage, at higher frequencies it's not a big problem because it cycles fast enough you don't notice it, but on the slower cycles it heats the wire faster than can be compensated meaning you need to set it to a lower voltage to equal the higher frequencies output.
This was a problem early on with flashlights, maybe this will help you understand it better.
Initially they started with cycles less then 100hz and it made it look like a strobe to many users, because it would cycle from off to on slow enough the human eye could detect it.
You get the same effect with your coil in this manner, it's superheated, cooled off, and superheated again. This produces the "rattle snake" effect many talk of, and creates the hot juice splatter on my tongue that I didn't enjoy.
The higher PWM, and RMS settings helps smooth this effect out by either cycling fast enough it maintains a more constant coil temperature. Much like the improved PWM of the newer LED flashlights, you don't notice the filckering in them anymore either.
I hope that helps you understand it better.

 

[k702]

hate to go off topic.. sort of.. but I don't know if this deserves it's own thread.

Could anyone recommend a good safety fuse for a mech? I would like to be safe as far as overdischarging and shorts.. I might get a kick later (the evolv version) but until then a fuse will do. I've just seen a few and don't really have a point of reference.

 

[sawlight]

This is the most recommended, Electronic | Cigarettes | Mods | Battery | Safety | Fuse | TheVapeSafe.com but I think it's limited to 10amps, there is supposed to be a new one coming out that goes to 15amps.

 

[MamaTried]

The thing with PWM is it cycles from 0 to 6v to simulate the set voltage, at higher frequencies it's not a big problem because it cycles fast enough you don't notice it, but on the slower cycles it heats the wire faster than can be compensated meaning you need to set it to a lower voltage to equal the higher frequencies output.
This was a problem early on with flashlights, maybe this will help you understand it better.
Initially they started with cycles less then 100hz and it made it look like a strobe to many users, because it would cycle from off to on slow enough the human eye could detect it.
You get the same effect with your coil in this manner, it's superheated, cooled off, and superheated again. This produces the "rattle snake" effect many talk of, and creates the hot juice splatter on my tongue that I didn't enjoy.
The higher PWM, and RMS settings helps smooth this effect out by either cycling fast enough it maintains a more constant coil temperature. Much like the improved PWM of the newer LED flashlights, you don't notice the filckering in them anymore either.
I hope that helps you understand it better.

thanks. that is the best explanation that i have read so far. i need to think on it. not sure i buy it yet, but it certainly makes sense. (and i have designed PWM circuits, so i get all that)

if it's true, than it suggests that a PWM set at 6.5 watts would perform like a DC at 6.0 (just pulling these numbers out of nowhere, but you get the idea). so if that's the only difference, than it's not really a difference.

i'm still not convinced that a piece of kanthal or nichrome or R41 can tell the difference between PWM and DC in the timeframe that would cause human taste buds to detect a difference. but, i suppose we'll never know until someone does a blind test with a statistically valid sample size. and, of course, that will never happen.

but, i think it's an interesting question until we all get bored with it (which will probly happen soon)

 

[sawlight]

Honestly I could detect a difference on my Lava tube and the pre-RMS ZMax. Now on the MVP and VTR, it's as clean and smooth as my Provari, no lie there!
The chips are getting better, but they've got a long way to go on build quality yet IMO.

 

[Flt Simulation]

The Kick 1 will supply constant power up to 10 watts, and the Kick 2 up to 15 watts.

Why spend more money on a Kick 2 if you never need more than 10 watts of power for your coil.

Personally, I find the so-called "sweet spot" on my 1.6 ohm coil to be right at 8 watts of power .... no need for the more expensive Kick 2 when the $20 Kick 1 will take care of my needs.
___________________________________

Like someone else mentioned ... It's nice to be able to have a constant voltage / watts supply to your coil, no matter what the battery charge is. The vape stays the same all the time.

 

[wllmc]

bought a kick 3 or 4 months ago. used it for one day and that was that. i just build coils where i will like the hit full charge or low. they are cool just not for me

I feel like I'm missing something obvious here.

I'm weighing up the benefits of Kicking my mechs and, to be honest, I don't really see any.

Assuming I am capable of consistently building a coil at 1.176ohms, then even at 4.2v, that's only 15watts. The Kick only regulates up to 15watts. So what is the benefit? Even on a 18350 I'm way under on my "safe" amps.

Therefore, assuming I'm running all my coils at 1.176ohms or lower, the Kick is useless.

I appreciate the "low battery warning", but with a pass through volt meter, that does the same job for checking.

I also appreciate the "cut off", but a fuse does the same job.

Am I missing something?

 

[MamaTried]

Honestly I could detect a difference on my Lava tube and the pre-RMS ZMax. Now on the MVP and VTR, it's as clean and smooth as my Provari, no lie there!
The chips are getting better, but they've got a long way to go on build quality yet IMO.

i believe you, but my nerd brain suggests that a lot of those differences were due to the physical characteristics of the mod. stuff like airflow, and even connectivity come into play.

 

[Baditude]

The issue I've had with the 33.3 hz mods is not the sound, but they seem to fire hotter than what you set them for. I've had two 33.3 hz VV mods, both which would be set for say 4.4 volts output but seemed to deliver what 5.4 volts would be like on my Provari or MVP.

Now there are those vapers who like that, and will say that these mods are "hitting harder". I beg to differ, if I set 4.4 volts thats what I want my device to put out.

 

[MasterLink]

i have had the kick version 1 and 2 spend the extra cash for the kick 2 ... its built better version 2 hold the ground better with the 2 spring pins the kick does better at the 3.ohms that's it sweet spot,,,,, as for sub ohms .5 is almost a direct short and the kick 2 will hold that but i think its is somewhere around 3.8 volts on a fresh battery ...ontill its done with its charge i have a Provari and a Darwin and there is a difference in how the power is delivered to the atty

 

[Alter]

I've been using 3 sigelei kicks in 3 different mechs for the last 6 months now. I've had no problems with neither of the 3 kicks and using 1 of them every day in my daily PV. I rebuild my protank coils to 2.0 ohms and with some adjusting at the beginning I've never had to adjust any of them after that. I clean the kicks points with 320 grit every so often and take a alcohol qtip and clean the kicks circuits, make sure where the kicks ground sits in the mech is sanded and clean.
If you rebuild your own heads and can keep them at a consistent ohm level the kick is a great piece of gear but IMO is your using those inconsistent stock heads you will have nothing but hassles and an unhappy vape experience.

 

[syndicate2083]

I have a kick for my magneto (original, from evolv) and I love it.

I don't believe that it is drawing much more heavily on the battery per vape, I think it more likely that it spindles energy into some form of capacitor to give you the constant rate. At least in my anecdotal experience, and past work with electronics. Seems sensical to me at least.

Beyond that, I really enjoy that I can tune the vape at any time.

So that stock, or pre-made coil, sometimes I want more TH, or a warmer vape, sometimes I want something more mellow. And until the battery dies I get what I want. Home, away, dont need to carry different coils at different ohms. Just tune it as I want it. Some people dont care to do that, but thats certainly a valid want for some of us.

I also don't notice any precipitous drop in battery life as if it was drawing much more power from it, I seem to get about the same runtime regardless of kicked or not.

 

[SleeZy]

I have a kick for my magneto (original, from evolv) and I love it.

I don't believe that it is drawing much more heavily on the battery per vape, I think it more likely that it spindles energy into some form of capacitor to give you the constant rate. At least in my anecdotal experience, and past work with electronics. Seems sensical to me at least.

Beyond that, I really enjoy that I can tune the vape at any time.

So that stock, or pre-made coil, sometimes I want more TH, or a warmer vape, sometimes I want something more mellow. And until the battery dies I get what I want. Home, away, dont need to carry different coils at different ohms. Just tune it as I want it. Some people dont care to do that, but thats certainly a valid want for some of us.

I also don't notice any precipitous drop in battery life as if it was drawing much more power from it, I seem to get about the same runtime regardless of kicked or not.

When does the kick shut of from overdischarging? Some places say 2.7v and that's quite the max batteries can handle before risking thermal runaway. 3.3 seems to be the safe spot. Does it shut down at 3.3? For me that would be the only reason i would get a kick, until i've learned my batteries well enough.

 

[sawlight]

To finally lay this to rest,

The Kick will detect, and stop functioning, when a battery charge level drops below 3.2 volts UNDER LOAD (with an atty/carto attached). This is a safety feature. The Kick will tell you this feature is activating when you experience STUTTER VAPE (vapor-no vapor alternating - may feel like tss-tss-tss). If you continue to vape beyond this indicator, the Kick will stop functioning until a fresh battery charge is detected. If you remove the battery and meter test it (unloaded) it may read between 3.4 and 3.6 volts. There are many variables that can contribute to the various unloaded readings.

From here, Evolv LLC - Kick Instructions

 

[Dac311]

Well, it regulates you wattage. So when the battery drops to 3.8 it ensures that you're still getting 15 watts. It's more of a consistency thing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

 

[syndicate2083]

yeah, after using the kick batteries at 'depletion, no fire' meter out to 3.3~3.2v Never seen one get bellow 3.2 ever.