Lawsuits mount against FDA regs on e-cigarettes

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oplholik

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DC2

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I am slowly coming to appreciate the idea that...

The FDA went balls-to-the-wall on purpose.
To satisfy the alphabet soup and the anti-tobacco prohibitionists.

The FDA was basically in an untenable position.
Stuck between truth and money, yet being pushed to do something yesterday.

They moved forward while knowing full well they would find themselves in court.
And that's where things start getting interesting.

I think we will win, but I'm stocked up for a long time just in case.
Money is power, and power is money.
 

KY_Rob

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We Vapers "may" win, by being able to continue vaping using products we decide we like. However, look for product prices to skyrocket, due to taxation that is either equal to or greater than current tobacco taxes.
Plain and simple, it's all about the money. The very real and significant drops in smoking rates have put a big dent in the coffers of states. Those states will get their money.
 

squee

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Judge Amy Berman Jackson gave FDA until Aug. 16 to respond to the lawsuits and scheduled a hearing for Oct. 19.

So no injunction prior to the August 8th cut-off date. Which means at the very least, no new products can be introduced to the US market (mods, tanks, liquids) from 8/8 until Nov/Dec at the earliest, assuming we get a positive outcome. If we don't.....??
 

Ipster

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I think that (at this point) the courts are our best chance of getting any relief from the FDA regulations
WELL I wish I could completely agree, but its one avenue only.
Im sure the FDA anticipated the vendors to respond, and compared to $BT$ its not enough.
We also need to advocate and fight.
The USA has one of the best grassroots campaign histories, and this is an election year...!!
So pls do everything you can to let your representatives know that vaping saved your life.
TYVM
 

retired1

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bigdancehawk

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Any lawyers want to decipher this for me?
Tobacco On Trial » Blog Archive » DOCKET for NICOPURE LABS v. FDA et al, Jul 29-Aug 2, 2016

If I'm reading it right, SFATA's testimony will be allowed, CASAA's, Clive Bates, and Vape A Vet will not?
By allowing SFATA, TechFreedom and the NCPPR to intervene, the judge is not saying they will be allowed to present "testimony." Rather, they will be allowed to present their legal arguments in briefs based on the existing FDA record.

A little background on this to better understand where the judge is coming from: the courts scrutinize federal regulations based on procedures established by federal statutes (principally the Administrative Procedure Act) and under certain provisions of the Bill of Rights, most notably due process.

Under those statutes and constitutional principles, it is the responsibility of the courts to review what the agency did based on the evidence which the agency had in front of it when it formulated the regulation in question. The courts do not start all over with the process and take in new evidence which was not presented to the agency. In this sense, the district court acts like an appeals court. An appeals court doesn't conduct a new trial and doesn't consider evidence which was not presented to the trial court. Instead, the appeals court reviews the record to assess whether the trial court screwed up one or more of its rulings and/or whether the judgment is supported by substantial evidence in the record.

Who is or isn't allowed to intervene is pretty much up to the discretion of the judge. The judge explained why CASAA would not be allowed to intervene: chiefly because it proposed to present evidence which was not presented to the FDA ("does not appear to be part of the existing record"). But nobody will be allowed to do that. Clive Bates' and Vape a Vet's motions were denied "without prejudice" because of technical deficiencies. "Without prejudice" means they can try to correct the deficiencies and refile.
 

Dougiestyle

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I look forward to the outrageous FDA regs being whittled down to acceptable, consumer and industry-agreed regulations (child-proof caps, clean manufacturing, etc). It is the brick-by-brick disassembly of the BS inclusions that will take time. I have nic, flavorings, wire, wick and hardware to sustain until the details are ironed out. Hopefully.

Honestly, I'm more worried about other US and world factors that threaten civilization as a whole (WWIII). While I'm stocked on e-cig stuffs, I'm also stocking water, food and ammunition. Never thought I'd be a prepper, but here I am, just watching the world disintegrate and trying to sustain.
 
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Buster282

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One thing that I thought of is that the FDA seemed to only give lip service to all the "comments" that people submitted. (I'm guessing there were thousands, however I don't know.) Zeller calls it anecdotal evidence. Yeah it's not scientific evidence but it is the testimony of people's experiences using vaping products. Too bad we couldn't testify under oath. I just think that they should have given it more weight, as they were required to take comments.
 
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Racehorse

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I said 2 years ago "all this will be decided in a court of law" so I never got TOO upset about what might happen....

..what if, what if, what if, .......I think 30 and 40 year old's can live with constant thoughts of "what if's" but as you get older that is the kind of stress that predisposes people to high blood pressure, heart attacks, etc.

I have learned not to hold on to anger either, another "stress type killer". A dose of anger every day and you have a veritable......... health disaster.

Some of the stress I've seen on this board over the last 2 years would have a deleterious affect on most people's health. I quit smoking to be healthier. Adding a ton of stress is really as bad if not worse for one's health. That is a fact.

Stress isn't caused by events or circumstances.....it is how we handle events and circumstances.

It's okay to plan ahead and try to cover your bases, but you can never fully anticipate what will happen in life, and that tree I cut last month that looked like it was too close to the house......usually it's some other thing that you DIDN'T think about that goes awry. :lol:

I have learned not to be fearful, angry, or stressed about things beyond my control. It's pretty much a full time job just to take care of stuff that IS within my control.

Just a health message, if you will. :)
 

bigdancehawk

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Well, the SFATA filed its amicus brief on Tuesday. You can read it HERE. Not a strong effort, IMO. It says:
“There is another significant segment within the vapor industry that produces e-Liquids. Those e-Liquids are heated within the vaporizer to produce a flavored vapor without omitting the burned resins, chemicals, ash, and odor typically associated with combustible tobacco (e.g., cigarettes).”
"Emitting" is the word they were looking for.
Mistakes happen, but the primary flaw is that the brief consists mainly of assertions like these:
"SFATA’s own internal estimate for the number of e-Liquids on the market is significantly higher than FDA’s estimate."
"A study by Management Science Associates showed that vape shops sell a staggering number of products, on average selling 542 SKUs overall and 300 e-Liquid options. See Vape News Magazine, Vape Shop Owner Survey Results Revealed (Sept. 5, 2015)..."
"SFATA’s surveying shows that ninety-eight (98) percent of respondents operate a brick-and-mortar business, and almost seventy (70) percent of respondents are single-location owners."
"It has been estimated that micro businesses are the sole source of income for three-quarters of their proprietors. Association for Enterprise Opportunity, Opinion Poll: The Role of Micro Businesses In Our Economy, Oct. 9, 2012, at 3."
"A few example comments collected from SFATA’s member companies demonstrates the dire prospects for the industry under the Deeming Rule..." [grammar: a few comments demonstrate, not demonstrates]
And on, and on, and on.

These assertions, while undoubtedly true, are not supported by citations to the record. As I explained in an earlier post here, the time to submit evidence is before the regulation is adopted, not in the judicial review process. The judge will almost certainly ignore these assertions.

The main purpose of a legal brief is to cite law (cases and statutes) to support your position. Yet this brief contains no legal arguments or citations of any kind. Not one.

This is a missed opportunity to submit compelling legal arguments to this judge which have not yet been made. For example, millions of US citizens have invested goodly sums in vaping hardware. Hardware needs new parts from time to time. After 8/8/18 if you need replacement coils for your Nautilus, you might as well throw the thing away because new coils will probably be legally unobtainable. Or what if you need a new o-ring or drip tip? You'll be out of luck. This seems utterly arbitrary, unreasonable, and unjustifiable to protect public health, effectively rendering worthless things people have already paid good money for. Did the FDA take that into account--the economic, social and health consequences of it as they are required to do by law? Nope.

Hypothetically, let's say some federal agency decides that in two years it will be illegal to sell any automobiles which don't have prior agency approval, even if those same automobiles have already been bought by millions who are currently driving them around with no known defect. And let's say the regulation also states that it will be illegal to sell any parts for those automobiles unless it has approved the entire automobile, bumper to bumper. Any court would hold that to be unreasonable. Likewise, who is going to submit a PMTPA for an o-ring or a drip tip?
 

oem

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I am slowly coming to appreciate the idea that...

The FDA went balls-to-the-wall on purpose.
To satisfy the alphabet soup and the anti-tobacco prohibitionists.

The FDA was basically in an untenable position.
Stuck between truth and money, yet being pushed to do something yesterday.

They moved forward while knowing full well they would find themselves in court.
And that's where things start getting interesting.

I think we will win, but I'm stocked up for a long time just in case.
Money is power, and power is money.


Money is power, and power is money. Good shot, man.
 
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nomore stinkies

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One more ..This one requests a jury trial.

3 Alabama vape shops sue FDA
That would worry me. There are SO many ill-informed people. I would hate to have them on a jury regarding vaping. Think of all those articles we read that said vaping is worse than combustibles. Boy I don't know....
 
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