lets talk oxidization.

[Lance_Wallen]

I want to discuss SS mesh wicks and what exactly is happening when we heat and quench them or go through the various dances to make them work.

I've read about passivation which I believe is 'not' what's happening. I don't think we're creating a thicker layer of chromium oxide on the mesh, I believe we're creating a thin mineral deposit to create a non conductive barrier. The goals I have in this discussion follow:

1. What exactly are we accomplishing with our various wick treatement methods?

2. How can we more effectively achieve this goal once identified?

3. F*ing magnets, how do they work?


Ok, ignoring 3, here's my thoughts.

1. I've read that the quenching requires tap water because you heat the coil then quench it and it creates a mineral layer from the various 'stuff' that is in the water. Folks are burning without quenching as well and getting good results and people are quenching in weird stuff like coffee dregs and getting good results. The no quench method could still be dispositing minerals in the form of carbonization, etc or actual 'oxidization' which technically isn't happening to stainless steel in the traditional sense from the actions we're taking. I believe it's a mineral disposit that we're after and not so much 'rust'.

If we're after a mineral deposit that we're after or just a 'non conductive coating' then perhaps there are better ways to go about it, I'v eseen the rolling paper method and tried it and failed... mostly because I'm an idiot but I'll be giving it some more tests today. It makes me think about goal number 2...

2. How can we more effectively achieve our goal of making the SS non conductive. Obviously people have gone with cotton wrapping and rolling papers to create a thin carbon layer, etc. How can we effectively do this, rapidly and in a foolproof, simple way. The rolling paper process is still not foolproof unfortunately... I screwed it up somehow and still managed to get a hotspot on the section of nichrome between the wick and positive post on my DUD. Is there something we could coat our coils in that could then burn off to create the carbon layer we're looking for? maybe wrap resist wire in thin paper before making the coil? that sounds difficult.

Thoughts? Info?

I'd love to have a brainstorming method here, we're doing things the way we all 'figured it out' and a lot of voodoo has been applied. I want to break it down scientifically and see if we can build a better mousetrap.

 

[perlionsmitnick]

Somewhere in another thread someone mentioned the process that heating the wick "sheet" but not quenching before rolling would anneal it and and allow for a more compliant wick during the rolling process. They were right. Not only does it allow for a more compliant wick but it also allows for a longer sheet to be rolled which increases the wicking capillary effect.

For dealing with hot spots and conductive issue of SS and coils I simply use separated cotton yarn strategically rolled around the wick under the coil and wrap small bits of cotton around any hot spot legs between the post and coil. With this method my set-up is guaranteed not to produce offensive hot spots and I don't have to keep opening up my GTUS.

 

[martinc]

Is there something we could coat our coils in that could then burn off to create the carbon layer we're looking for?

That would be the PG or VG or even juice that you smear over the mesh and burn with a lighter;

The torching of the mesh in my opinion is only a prep for that stage and doesnt need to be too extensive or you will render the ''base coat'' as well as the mesh itself too brittle to properly work with (at the coil stage);

So no hardcore torching and no dipping in vodka either (although I've seen it done,dude basically removed a step from the process by doing that--could also be achieved by quenching in PG)

There are so many ways to prep a mesh...some process takes 5 minutes,other 30!

 

[BuzzKilla]

Subing to this...

would like to know any development, as i also get that hotspot right at the first coil next to the positive connection.

I end up spending about 15-20 min. fiddling with that top coil before it settles down. gets really annoying.

 

[martinc]

The cure is easy,get that wick as close as the post as you can w/o loose wire (you can loosen the top nut and turn,sometimes it works) or even better,drill a second hole and go Uwick!

 

[BuzzKilla]

but with me it is weird... i doent actually get a hotleg(positive side of coil leg too long) it makes contact right at the top of the wich, usually at the end of the rolled wick... I crease the edge of the wick before i rol it to help prevent any frayed mesh from making contact, but it still seems to get red hot (about half coil).

it may just be me rubbing off the build up when tightening up that last coil. or something else similar (user error) but trying out another method that i haven't discovered yet, would be nice... using the rolling paper method doesnt really do much for me, still end up with same result.

I've only been building genesis style tanks for a short time... (2 coils in a week). so i may still just be getting the hang of it.

Been using the mesh wicks in my dripper atties for a little while now and never had this issue....

 

[Lance_Wallen]

the point of the thread is to determine exactly what we're accomplishing with all these arcane manuevers we're doing with the mesh/coil so we can get the goal isolated and figure out the absolute best method. Something more foolproof and preferably simpler.

Some points...

1. people oxidize the entire mesh... why? the only place the coil is making contact is at the top and if the mesh isn't conducting where the coil makes contact, the bottom and middle of the mesh don't matter.

2. wrapping with rolling papers seems to be a common trick. The assumption being that the paper leaves a small layer of carbon that isolates the coil from the wick.

3. has anyone tried using a ceramic cup over the wick? perhaps something porous?

 

[st0nedpenguin]

1. people oxidize the entire mesh... why? the only place the coil is making contact is at the top and if the mesh isn't conducting where the coil makes contact, the bottom and middle of the mesh don't matter.

It improves wicking.

 

[BuzzKilla]

It improves wicking.

How so?

Not being a smartass or anything, but i really never heard this before and dont see how adding a layer of crud on steel mesh woudl actually improve the wicking. I thought it would actually make it worse by clogging the space between the weaves, therefore decreasing its capillary capabilities??????

people oxidize the entire mesh... why? the only place the coil is making contact is at the top and if the mesh isn't conducting where the coil makes contact, the bottom and middle of the mesh don't matter.

I thought it was a preventative measure.
In case you get a single shorting point on the coil, the mesh itself touching the body of the tank wouldnt complete the short.

 

[ricklynchcore]

Might I suggest 2 threads to read regarding ss mesh, wicking and coil building. First in the modder area there is a thread called 500 mesh, and in the euro supplier area there is a thread on the DID atomizer. Everything you could possibly want to know regarding the topic is covered both practically and scientifically, much more extensively than could be done here. Hope this helps..

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 2

 

[Lance_Wallen]

the issue with big threads is that they are oftentimes hard to read. I started this for a specific discussion about those points above. I was hoping folks with that sort of info would see the value in consolidating that info into a thread dedicated to it. I've got both of the other threads open and I've been filtering through them slowly, in spurts, between getting dizzy and/or frustrated

 

[Boden]

I want to discuss SS mesh wicks and what exactly is happening when we heat and quench them or go through the various dances to make them work.

I've read about passivation which I believe is 'not' what's happening. I don't think we're creating a thicker layer of chromium oxide on the mesh, I believe we're creating a thin mineral deposit to create a non conductive barrier. The goals I have in this discussion follow:

1. What exactly are we accomplishing with our various wick treatement methods?

2. How can we more effectively achieve this goal once identified?

3. F*ing magnets, how do they work?


Ok, ignoring 3, here's my thoughts.

1. I've read that the quenching requires tap water because you heat the coil then quench it and it creates a mineral layer from the various 'stuff' that is in the water. Folks are burning without quenching as well and getting good results and people are quenching in weird stuff like coffee dregs and getting good results. The no quench method could still be dispositing minerals in the form of carbonization, etc or actual 'oxidization' which technically isn't happening to stainless steel in the traditional sense from the actions we're taking. I believe it's a mineral disposit that we're after and not so much 'rust'.

If we're after a mineral deposit that we're after or just a 'non conductive coating' then perhaps there are better ways to go about it, I'v eseen the rolling paper method and tried it and failed... mostly because I'm an idiot but I'll be giving it some more tests today. It makes me think about goal number 2...

2. How can we more effectively achieve our goal of making the SS non conductive. Obviously people have gone with cotton wrapping and rolling papers to create a thin carbon layer, etc. How can we effectively do this, rapidly and in a foolproof, simple way. The rolling paper process is still not foolproof unfortunately... I screwed it up somehow and still managed to get a hotspot on the section of nichrome between the wick and positive post on my DUD. Is there something we could coat our coils in that could then burn off to create the carbon layer we're looking for? maybe wrap resist wire in thin paper before making the coil? that sounds difficult.

Thoughts? Info?

I'd love to have a brainstorming method here, we're doing things the way we all 'figured it out' and a lot of voodoo has been applied. I want to break it down scientifically and see if we can build a better mousetrap.

When you Blacken SS You are basically oxidizing the surface of the SS in a heat treating process in a oxidizing environment. This causes the steel to form a layer of Fe3O4 not carbon. You do not need to quench the SS in this process. If you do you will be creating Fe3O4-H2O or hydrated black iron oxide.

[(edit: DO NOT DO THIS): If you wanted to carbonize your wick you should heat it to white hot and quench it in old oil. That would increase the carbon load in the steel. This would also make it more brittle. Don't think this would be a good idea. Carbon is actually a very good conductor. ]

Black oxide Is being used as a partal insulator because it doesn't have many free electrons.

Hydrating the Fe3O4 would cause the mineral to "fluff up" a bit making it a bit thicker but more brittle. I would think the non quench heat treated SS mesh would be more resistant to abrasion and less likely to have a full short.

You'll need a oxidizing flame to do this properly. ie. clear blue. A cig lighter would not work as it would carbonize the wick.

The cig paper is acting as a spacer that creates a small gap between the mesh and the coil. The loose carbon that is left behind would be washed away fairly rapidly by the movement of the liquid.

 

[Boden]

Ok, On to your question about how to better insulate a SS wick... anything that will allow fluid to move while acting as a spacer between the SS and the coil would work. It would have to be a non or low conductor like fiberglass or cotton. But then you would be using fiberglass or cotton and that would negate the benefits of the SS wick...

I'll think about it.

 

[perlionsmitnick]

How so?

Not being a smartass or anything, but i really never heard this before and dont see how adding a layer of crud on steel mesh woudl actually improve the wicking. I thought it would actually make it worse by clogging the space between the weaves, therefore decreasing its capillary capabilities??????


I thought it was a preventative measure.
In case you get a single shorting point on the coil, the mesh itself touching the body of the tank wouldn't complete the short.

In my opinion I see that coating the entire wick with soot essentially would reduce the size of the holes between the threads (aperture) of SS. From what I keep reading, they are saying that 500 mesh is wicking better than 400 mesh. 500 has more threads per inch than 400 and therefore smaller aperture between the threads.

 

[zoiDman]

When you Blacken SS You are basically oxidizing the surface of the SS in a heat treating process in a oxidizing environment. This causes the steel to form a layer of Fe3O4 not carbon. You do not need to quench the SS in this process. If you do you will be creating Fe3O4-H2O or hydrated black iron oxide.

If you wanted to carbonize your wick you should heat it to white hot and quench it in old oil. That would increase the carbon load in the steel. This would also make it more brittle. Don't think this would be a good idea. Carbon is actually a very good conductor.

Black oxide Is being used as a partal insulator because it doesn't have many free electrons.

Hydrating the Fe3O4 would cause the mineral to "fluff up" a bit making it a bit thicker but more brittle. I would think the non quench heat treated SS mesh would be more resistant to abrasion and less likely to have a full short.

You'll need a oxidizing flame to do this properly. ie. clear blue. A cig lighter would not work as it would carbonize the wick.

The cig paper is acting as a spacer that creates a small gap between the mesh and the coil. The loose carbon that is left behind would be washed away fairly rapidly by the movement of the liquid.

Isn't Fe3O4 Magnetite?

I wasn't aware that Magnetite acted as an Insulator.

 

[Lance_Wallen]

I did some reading today and I'm having issues with the Fe3O4 thing... I don't see how heating stainless can create this. Also, in that form it would be conductive still I believe. After reading it seems more likely that the surface coloration is just plain old iron oxide or chromium oxide, most likely a combination of the two depending on how long and how 'hard' it's heated. It's not actually carbon so I stand corrected on that both by you fine gentlemen and by myself during research. I believe it is an actual oxidization process and I'm wondering how to more effectively do it at this point, perhaps in a more controlled way to ensure a strong even coat, sort of like annodizing aluminum.

 

[martinc]

Its important to leave a gap of coil-free mesh up top since its the fartest part of it (obviously) and the slowest wicking part too so its the 1st part to dry up and produce hotspots/shorts

 

[vio3d]

I did some reading today and I'm having issues with the Fe3O4 thing... I don't see how heating stainless can create this. Also, in that form it would be conductive still I believe. After reading it seems more likely that the surface coloration is just plain old iron oxide or chromium oxide, most likely a combination of the two depending on how long and how 'hard' it's heated. It's not actually carbon so I stand corrected on that both by you fine gentlemen and by myself during research. I believe it is an actual oxidization process and I'm wondering how to more effectively do it at this point, perhaps in a more controlled way to ensure a strong even coat, sort of like annodizing aluminum.

All I found about this write by some really expert guys is that it's called passivation of SS not oxidation - still I'm using with best results immersion on distilled water , and then burning e-liquid few times.

 

[zoiDman]

I did some reading today and I'm having issues with the Fe3O4 thing... I don't see how heating stainless can create this. Also, in that form it would be conductive still I believe. After reading it seems more likely that the surface coloration is just plain old iron oxide or chromium oxide, most likely a combination of the two depending on how long and how 'hard' it's heated. It's not actually carbon so I stand corrected on that both by you fine gentlemen and by myself during research. I believe it is an actual oxidization process and I'm wondering how to more effectively do it at this point, perhaps in a more controlled way to ensure a strong even coat, sort of like annodizing aluminum.

I’m with you Lance.

I don’t understand what is going on when people tell me that “Oxidizing” Stainless Steel causes a drop in Electrical Conductivity.

A Stainless Steel Alloy, 10.5% or more Chromium, forms Oxides on the Surface Boundary in the presence of Oxygen and Water. But these Oxides are Not Iron Oxides, there Chromium Oxides. The Chromium interferes with Iron/Oxygen Reaction.

I don’t know how Heating Stainless Steel with a Torch would achieve Iron Oxide Formation?

BTW – If you Heat a Steel Alloy above 1330 F and then let it cool Slowly, you are Annealing (ie: Making it Softer) the Alloy. How much Softer the Alloy becomes depends on Two Factors. 1) How Much higher than 1330 F you Heat the Alloy. 2) How Hard the Alloy was in relation to its Relative Hardness Range when you started.

If you Heat a Steel Alloy above 1330 F and then Rapidly Cool it, Quench it, you can make the Alloy Harder. This depends on Three Main Factors. 1) How much Higher than 1330 F you Heat the Alloy. 2) How Hard the Alloy was in relation to its Relative Hardness Range when you started. 3) How much Carbon in present in the Alloy. And what type of Quenching Medium is used to Rapidly Cool the Alloy.

Quenching Mediums can be things like Forced Air, Salt Solutions, Oils or Water.

If a Heated Alloy is Quenched in Oil, there can be a Transfer of Carbon to the Surface Boundary. This will cause the Carbon Content to become Elevated at the Boundary from the Majority of the Alloy. Thus yielding a Slightly Harder Surface.

But this Surface Hardness is Marginal with respect to Brittleness.

A good example is Quenching in Water. Since quenching in Water yield a Faster Cooling Rate than Quenching in Oil, Higher Hardness is Achieved. It wasn’t because of Adding Carbon to the Surface Boundary, Water contains no Carbon, it was because the Cooling occurred more Rapidly.

 

[zoiDman]

All I found about this write by some really expert guys is that it's called passivation of SS not oxidation - still I'm using with best results immersion on distilled water , and then burning e-liquid few times.

Passivation of Stainless Steel is the Removal of Iron Oxides.

If the Surface Boundary is Free of Iron Oxides and has a Continues Surface Layer of Chromium Oxides, the Stainless Steel will be have a Higher Resistance to Chemicals or the Formation of New Iron Oxides.