SS Mesh Oxidization, Chromium IV/VI deposits... Uh oh?

[Euphonious Nonsense]

This is from another forum I frequent. Makes sense if you do a bit of reading and the science is there. I am really not looking forward to moving back to silica so I may be checking out ceramic sooner rather than later... The setup I am using requires oxidization of the SS mesh or I will end up with shorts every time.

Anyone hear/read anything about it, or more familiar with it than me?




For those that don't know, I don't have a good handle on it yet, but oxidization of SS mesh creates chromium deposits on the surface that can, and often dislodge when rolling it into a wick and can make its way into the juice to be inhaled. It's the same type of stuff or fumes that are released when welding. I guess there are certain TYPES/levels/grades/whatever that aren't so bad, but they all form at different heat levels. When you torch an SS mesh wick, you're usually heating it to a level where it forms Chromium IV/VI -- apparently Chromium VI is toxic and a carcinogen:

• "Hexavalent chromium can also be formed when performing "hot work" such as welding on stainless steel or melting chromium metal. In these situations the chromium is not originally hexavalent, but the high temperatures involved in the process result in oxidation that converts the chromium to a hexavalent state."
  [*]"Hexavalent chromium compounds are genotoxic carcinogens. Excessive chronic inhalation of hexavalent chromium compounds increases risk of lung cancer (lungs are especially vulnerable, followed by fine capillaries in kidneys and intestines)"
  [*]"The carcinogenity of chromate dust is known for a long time, and in 1890 the first publication described the elevated cancer risk of workers in a chromate dye company"
  

and the temps at which we oxidize SS mesh for wicks usually far exceeds the temps where Chromium VI is formed. Someone sent off samples and said there were good amounts of Chromium IV/VI deposits coming off the oxidized SS mesh wicks, so that's why there's a scare right now.


there's no really conclusive evidence right now, though. No one really understands it yet, AFAIK, and the only real danger is if those deposits make it into the juice you vape. I guess if you oxidized it and scrubbed it/rolled it/unrolled it really good and rinsed it a million times, it's probably safe.


to get around it, a lot of people are just baking their SS mesh sheets in an oven at really high temps (like 550-600F, if they go that high) for an hour or two to oxidize it. It seems like it oxidizes it enough to where it's not as conductive as it could be (shorts and all that), but doesnt get to a high enough temp to form the dangerous Chromium VI. Other people are just not oxidizing their wicks at all, but I don't know how that works.

 

[Jeremy Evans]

I wonder how hot the coils themselves get when vaping. I have been wondering if there was this kind of side effect from using SS and is actually the reason why I havent really gotten into gennys yet

 

[Euphonious Nonsense]

I think gennys are less of the issue as you can only oxidize a small portion of the wick and thus you have a way to handle the wick until you insert it into the tank. I myself use SS mesh in a igo-l, i HAVE to oxidize and often i have to handle the wick a good amount before it sits right with no shorts. It is a pain in the @$$ to setup but rock solid (with 28g) after built. Not sure what I am going to do now.

 

[Lyle Devine]

I have read a number of these, fiber glass, silica, stainless steel... Kanthal and nickel-CHROMIUM wire both have significant amounts of chromium about 20% of the total make-up. the coil has gotten hot enough to burn a hole in my mesh, although the MSDS sheet says non carsonagenic, and we have a huge exposer to Kanthal because it is used for everything... Water heaters, heating elements, space heaters... Also hexavaliant chromium is in most city's tap water, above what is considered safe. Does it make me cautious? Yes. Scared? No.

 

[Kemosabe]

im bumping this thread to see how many people are still worried about chromium.

i do notice that at times my RBAs make me cough. not a choking-on-the-drag type of cough, more like a lingering cough that surfaces a minute or two after a few vapes.

i wonder if there is some irritant coming off the wick.

i tried an unoxidized build and it went terribly. perhaps i will try it again with more patience. or maybe i'll try the oven-oxidize method. is anyone doing the oven oxidize method successfuly?

 

[Jeremy Evans]

I have read a number of these, fiber glass, silica, stainless steel... Kanthal and nickel-CHROMIUM wire both have significant amounts of chromium about 20% of the total make-up. the coil has gotten hot enough to burn a hole in my mesh, although the MSDS sheet says non carsonagenic, and we have a huge exposer to Kanthal because it is used for everything... Water heaters, heating elements, space heaters... Also hexavaliant chromium is in most city's tap water, above what is considered safe. Does it make me cautious? Yes. Scared? No.

What kind of setup were you using when you burnt through the wick?

 

[Euphonious Nonsense]

I really expected this thread to get more posts, I guess its probably beating a dead horse at this point?

 

[ricks]

Its still early...

I really expected this thread to get more posts, I guess its probably beating a dead horse at this point?

 

[Rule62]

I really expected this thread to get more posts, I guess its probably beating a dead horse at this point?

Yeah, it was discussed at length a couple months ago. It's one reason why many folks have gone to either minimally oxidized or non oxidized wicks, ceramic, and Nextel 116.

 

[vpsi333]

I went through the Chromium Oxide scare back in February. Tried the unoxidized wick deal and couldn’t consistently keep them working. Plenty of issues going unoxidized, but it can be done, just too much tinkering for me. Now I just lightly oxidize my mesh (red but not glowing) and vape away until more information comes out.

 

[Rule62]

The good thing about the earlier discussions is that most people seem to be oxidizing their wicks much less than they used to.

 

[Euphonious Nonsense]

This is true. I went back and read a lot of the previous discussions. Also ordered some fc2000s lol.

 

[Lyle Devine]

In responce to the question about my setup when a coil burned through some SS mesh, it was a 6 wrap coil of .5 ribbon, at 3.3-3.7 volts. It was a mostly un-oxidized build, reusing the wick from a previous build, and wasn't particularly stable as far as ohms, indicating some hot-spots and possibly some shorts. Un-oxidized wicks are a fickle thing. At some point half the coil went and the SS mesh was completing the circuit burning a hole through two layers. I was away from my supplies and just vaped on it until I had a chance to rebuild it. Burning SS has a ridiculous throat hit. Not recommended.

 

[mrfixit]

Okay correct me if I'm wrong but this info states that this stuff is produced during welding which involves extremely high temps. Also the melting of two different metals. I doubt seriously that we are inhaling this stuff seeing that the wick remains wet pretty much all the time. Juice is also used in the process of oxidation and if that is helping create this stuff then we need to rethink this whole thing. I'm interested in seeing if anything else comes out about this. Seems strange that it comes up not when ss mesh was first being used but way later and when the FDA is considering regulation ect... Hey what do I know though if you think about it nothing is really 100% safe or healthy. Our lungs were originally designed to take in oxygen and put out co2 he says then takes a toot.

 

[StaircaseWit]

The good thing about the earlier discussions is that most people seem to be oxidizing their wicks much less than they used to.

Very true. I don't 'oxidize' in the traditional sense at all. I wash my mesh in hot soapy water to remove machine oils/etc. and wrap the coil on the bare wick. Pulsing while twisting the wick, it takes just a few minutes to get an evenly-glowing coil on a mechanical mod.

The problem is, you're still 'oxidizing' the wick by doing the pulse routine. If you pulse a coil in a dark room, you'll see the stainless glow red; same with dry-burning. There's really no way to isolate the coil electrically from the wick without building up that layer of oxidation.

This has all been discussed at length in the modding forum. An ECF user named Boden even sent off 'oxidized' wicks for lab testing. The results were negative, but I still don't like using mesh much anymore. I started vaping to hopefully remove the dangers of smoking, not to introduce new ones. I honestly wish there were more clinical/lab testing of common vaping materials so we know what is safe(r) and what is not.

 

[Satava]

Okay correct me if I'm wrong but this info states that this stuff is produced during welding which involves extremely high temps. Also the melting of two different metals. I doubt seriously that we are inhaling this stuff seeing that the wick remains wet pretty much all the time. Juice is also used in the process of oxidation and if that is helping create this stuff then we need to rethink this whole thing. I'm interested in seeing if anything else comes out about this. Seems strange that it comes up not when ss mesh was first being used but way later and when the FDA is considering regulation ect... Hey what do I know though if you think about it nothing is really 100% safe or healthy. Our lungs were originally designed to take in oxygen and put out co2 he says then takes a toot.

You're not wrong, it is produced from the super high temps achieved from welding. If you're not oxidizing with an Acetelyne Torch and the wick isn't smoking due to being damn near white hot, you're probably ok. I just oxidize on a gas stove as the temps are a little lower than the propane/butane torches people use and the flame is easier to control. What scares me however is when a coil arcs out to the mesh. This COULD produce unsafe compounds as the temperatures of an arc can easily go over 2000C, even if only for a milisecond. You'll notice when pulsing out a coil sometimes even completely dry it'll smoke? That's what the welders are warned to not inhale. Weather its the coil or the mesh smoking makes no difference to me, when I pulse out a coil I do it with ventilation and avoid the smoke.