Li-ion Battery Chargers Cause DSL Interference

[yzer]

I was using five YL-103A chargers with protected 14650 batteries at the garage workbench. I use this cube tap set-up for charging multiple batteries.

When these chargers are running I can hear RF interference with the car radio set to AM. This interference can be heard from a distance of several houses down the street.

In addition, when using these chargers my basic ADSL connection speed is reduced by half. Download speed falls from 1.26 Mbps to .54 Mbps. Note that this is ADSL, not a cable internet connection.

 

[VegasVaporz]

You know what, I just put my pila charger right next to my internet router a few weeks back. I have been wondering why my internet has slown down so much and its driving me crazy. I'm going to check back later. See if moving it to another room works better. I hear this high pitched whining sound from the pila when its next to the router

 

[incantius]

this also happens with some cordless phones due to RF frequency interrupts...move it to a place farther away from the router and it should be better...

 

[yzer]

A copy of the note I just sent to my ISP.



Sirs,

I discussed this issue with XXXXX on chat and phone on the evening of 5/15/2012. I followed up by testing later that evening.

I normally get 1.26 Mbps down with my 1.5 ADSL connection. When running a couple of YL-103A Li-ion battery chargers my download speed drops to .54 Mbps. Upload speed is unaffected. I also hear radio interference from these chargers on the AM radio in my car. I can hear this interference from a distance of a few houses down the street.

I tested this idea several times by plugging the chargers in, running Speedtest to check download speed and checking again with the chargers unplugged. Use of the chargers caused identical download speed reductions each time.

I use this charger at the workbench in the garage, which has GFCI protection. The batteries are 3.7VDC protected Li-ion 14650. Batteries of this type are used in high tech LED flashlights. I use them for a hand-held laser and a high end e-cigarette.

A photo of the charging set-up I use is included,

Sincerely,

XXXXX

 

[DaveP]

If you are hearing interference on an AM car radio tuned to a local station, then your antenna loading adjustment is out. I had a similar problem with AM radio interference. Almost anywhere I went in our area, I'd get a slowly rising or falling tone in the background. It would take 10 minutes for it to go from a low rumble to a high pitch and then repeat. I popped out the radio (aftermarket Sony) and adjusted the antenna trimmer for max signal and the problem went away. Now, I can go anywhere and listen to my talk show AM radio and enjoy it with no interference. I had a new Dodge minivan that had the same problem. Power lines would drive it nuts. I took it back and they adjusted the antenna trimmer. Problem solved.

For the DSL interference problem, I imagine the first question from the ISP will be, "Is your house wired with CAT5-E cable or standard telephone wire?". My modem and wireless router are upstairs, so I don't notice any difference in download speed with a battery charging. It's always 5mbps or better on a 6mbps connection. My wife and I use wireless laptops at the kitchen table downstairs most of the time and the desktop is upstairs, along with a couple of printers. Our house is wired with CAT5-E throughout.

I hear my charger whine in the baby monitor unless I take it across the room and plug it into an outlet farther away. AM is notorious for amplitude related noise.

Another option would be to charge batteries with the battery and a charger in a metal box. That would absorb RF radiation and provide security in case the charger goes nuts and overcharges a battery. It's better than a charging sack.

 

[yzer]

If you are hearing interference on an AM car radio tuned to a local station, then your antenna loading adjustment is out. I had a similar problem with AM radio interference. Almost anywhere I went in our area, I'd get a slowly rising or falling tone in the background. It would take 10 minutes for it to go from a low rumble to a high pitch and then repeat. I popped out the radio (aftermarket Sony) and adjusted the antenna trimmer for max signal and the problem went away. Now, I can go anywhere and listen to my talk show AM radio and enjoy it with no interference. I had a new Dodge minivan that had the same problem. Power lines would drive it nuts. I took it back and they adjusted the antenna trimmer. Problem solved.

For the DSL interference problem, I imagine the first question from the ISP will be, "Is your house wired with CAT5-E cable or standard telephone wire?". My modem and wireless router are upstairs, so I don't notice any difference in download speed with a battery charging. It's always 5mbps or better on a 6mbps connection. My wife and I use wireless laptops at the kitchen table downstairs most of the time and the desktop is upstairs, along with a couple of printers. Our house is wired with CAT5-E throughout.

I hear my charger whine in the baby monitor unless I take it across the room and plug it into an outlet farther away. AM is notorious for amplitude related noise.

Antenna trim for an AM radio should be adjusted by using a RF signal generator tuned to the specific frequency you want to receive. Then the antenna trim capacitor is tuned to achieve maximum signal strength. RF interference present at the same frequency will also be maximized. I suppose you could lessen RFI by detuning the antenna trim capacitor but you are also reducing overall sensitivity of the receiver as well. I have some experience in tuning and maintaining military communications receivers which include AM broadcast band coverage.

By definition, DSL or ADSL is a copper wire system that uses the twisted pair telephone lines, not coaxial cable. I made this clear in the OP.

 

[DaveP]

Antenna trim for an AM radio should be adjusted by using a RF signal generator tuned to the specific frequency you want to receive. Then the antenna trim capacitor is tuned to achieve maximum signal strength. RF interference present at the same frequency will also be maximized. I suppose you could lessen RFI by detuning the antenna trim capacitor but you are also reducing overall sensitivity of the receiver as well. I have some experience in tuning and maintaining military communications receivers which include AM broadcast band coverage.

By definition, DSL or ADSL is a copper wire system that uses the twisted pair telephone lines, not coaxial cable. I made this clear in the OP.

What you are receiving is most likely a harmonic. Yes, you can use an RF signal generator to tune an AM radio receiver antenna trimer and a scope would be a plus to peak the ouput, but it's not necessary. It's a user adjustment for those who are savvy. Tune to 1400 and adjust the trimmer with a non-ferrous screwdriver. I tuned to 940 because that's the radio station in my town that carries Boortz and Limbaugh. After that, I could listen to AM stations 100 miles away, even on rural roads. I couldn't do that before. When you peak the antenna trimmer, you are rejecting spurious interference by maximizing the fundamental frequency you are trying to receive.

CAT5-E isn't shielded coax. It's UTP (unshielded twisted pair) that is recommended these days for home wiring. My electronics training came from two sources. One was a course that prepared me for the FCC license test for commercial transmitter engineering and the other was in digital electronics. I also have completed Cisco WAN/LAN network engineer training at a local college (graduated with honors).

I was a field engineer with a multinational company for 36 years. Recently early retired. I've been around the block a couple of times, too. Just trying to help, not hinder.

 

[yzer]

Thanks for defining CAT5-E. I wasn't aware of the specifics of this.

The point is that I'm using a DSL connection which uses standard copper telephone lines, not the high speed stuff. My ADSL is only 1.6 Mbps. I don't know if the chargers are interfering with my DSL because the phone lines act like an antenna or because it's interfering directly with the outboard DSL modem. I have a wireless router that I use for the laptop but the desktop computer I use now is connected by ethernet cable to the DSL modem.

Your method of tuning the AM receiver section of a car radio makes sense to me. I've never tried it on a car radio. I have reduced power line interference on my AM car radio by simply reaching out the window and adjusting the length of the whip antenna. Other than the all-news station I listen to occasionally I don't use AM radio much anymore.

 

[killovicz]

If you are hearing interference on an AM car radio tuned to a local station, then your antenna loading adjustment is out. I had a similar problem with AM radio interference. Almost anywhere I went in our area, I'd get a slowly rising or falling tone in the background. It would take 10 minutes for it to go from a low rumble to a high pitch and then repeat. I popped out the radio (aftermarket Sony) and adjusted the antenna trimmer for max signal and the problem went away. Now, I can go anywhere and listen to my talk show AM radio and enjoy it with no interference. I had a new Dodge minivan that had the same problem. Power lines would drive it nuts. I took it back and they adjusted the antenna trimmer. Problem solved.

For the DSL interference problem, I imagine the first question from the ISP will be, "Is your house wired with CAT5-E cable or standard telephone wire?". My modem and wireless router are upstairs, so I don't notice any difference in download speed with a battery charging. It's always 5mbps or better on a 6mbps connection. My wife and I use wireless laptops at the kitchen table downstairs most of the time and the desktop is upstairs, along with a couple of printers. Our house is wired with CAT5-E throughout.

I hear my charger whine in the baby monitor unless I take it across the room and plug it into an outlet farther away. AM is notorious for amplitude related noise.

Another option would be to charge batteries with the battery and a charger in a metal box. That would absorb RF radiation and provide security in case the charger goes nuts and overcharges a battery. It's better than a charging sack.

+1, thank you very much

 

[DaveP]

Thanks for defining CAT5-E. I wasn't aware of the specifics of this.

The point is that I'm using a DSL connection which uses standard copper telephone lines, not the high speed stuff. My ADSL is only 1.6 Mbps. I don't know if the chargers are interfering with my DSL because the phone lines act like an antenna or because it's interfering directly with the outboard DSL modem. I have a wireless router that I use for the laptop but the desktop computer I use now is connected by ethernet cable to the DSL modem.

Your method of tuning the AM receiver section of a car radio makes sense to me. I've never tried it on a car radio. I have reduced power line interference on my AM car radio by simply reaching out the window and adjusting the length of the whip antenna. Other than the all-news station I listen to occasionally I don't use AM radio much anymore.

There's really no good method of determining the interaction between interference and DSL and you are at the mercy of the phone company when they come out to test your connection. They'll hook up to the demarcation block on the outside of your house and check levels and run a diagnostic. If it's good there, they'll tell you that and it's up to you to figure out what it going on from that point. Been there!

Once, I lost DSL but could talk on the phone just fine. The AT&T tech came out and checked, then told me he needed to go up to the highway to do some more troubleshooting. It turned out that a DSLAM (digital subscriber access module) went bad and he replaced it. It's a card in a box that serves several subscribers from the main telephone feed to an area.

Another time, they came out and told me their side of the connection was fine. It was up to me to troubleshoot my side. I did after he left and found that a bug had died on the network type 66 punchdown block I had installed in my basement to provide a star network in my home using CAT5-E. The bug juice apparently crawled into the connection, died, and shorted my telephone line and was causing static, hum, and low DSL speeds. I built a nice mitered corner box with a rubber gasket sealed door to move my punchdown block into. I should have done that to start with. Since then, no problems.

It's a crap shoot when the telephone company comes out to your house. They will just hook up and tell you whether their side is good or not. If you have the inside wiring contract, they will fix it to the phone or modem itself. Otherwise, they thank you for your business and drive off. At least you know then which side of the demarcation block the problem is on.

 

[yzer]

Yeah, I've had my share of phone trucks rolling to the house. I never paid for a single visit. The problems were always on their side.

The last truck came during the fall. I was getting far less than promised speed up and down. This time I got a really good technician. He cleaned the line connections underground and across the street from my house and then did work at a big junction box a block and a half away. That did the trick and I've been getting the speeds I pay for ever since.

This problem was definitely on my side as using or not using the battery charger showed repeated cause and effect. I have the speed I should be getting when the charger is turned off.

I use this online speed test. There are quite a few of these testers available online now. It's amazingly accurate when compared to the test the technician will make on the phone line.

Speedtest.net - The Global Broadband Speed Test

 

[rolygate]

Apart from RF interference there may be a mains electrical interference issue. For example the charger could be injecting all sorts of dirt into the mains. You could maybe try mains filters on both the charger and the router.

 

[yzer]

Rolygate, I think you are onto something. Some sort of filter between the chargers and the power outlet may help.

I'm still experiencing this problem with the chargers. Here is how I deal with the issue.

1. Plug in the chargers.

2. ADSL download speed is reduced by 50%.

3. Complete charging and remove chargers from mains.

4. ADSL download speed remains reduced by 50% and will not return to normal until step 5 is taken.

5. Disconnect phone line (twisted pair) from DSL modem for 20 seconds. This is a Siemens SpeedStream 4100. Reconnect phone line to DSL modem and re-establish ADSL connection.

6. ADSL download speed returns to normal rated speed. It will remain so until I use the chargers again.

Interestingly, if I use just one of these chargers on the mains instead of a cluster of five or more I'll still see a reduction of download speed, but not to the same extent as if I was using more chargers at the same time.

These problems happen regardless of which of the several house wiring circuits I use. Distance from the computer and modem to the chargers doesn't seem to matter. I can use the chargers on outlets in the house or out in the garage with the same result. All household circuits share the same service from one breaker box.