MAO Inhibitors

[gatsby]

I've been reading a fair bit about the biochemical aspects of cigarette addiction.

The maximum effect from a puff on a cigarette occurs in 10 to 20 seconds.

The maximum effect from a puff on an e-cig occurs in about a minute.

I suspect that this difference is a large part of the "what's missing" question.

Thats interesting. I am not sure about the 'whats missing', but that would certainly explain why an experienced nicotine addict like myself (and others) felt nicotine OD effects even with the reported lower absorption rates reported for vaping when I first started. Personally I don't think they need to change anything since I adapted after a while and now I don't feel any where near as frantic about nicotine as I did when I smoked. Personally I prefer it that way. Also my mildly educated guess about the spectrum of nicotine addiction is that it is just good old associative learning which is a very powerful albeit simple mechanism.

 

[Mister]

Also my mildly educated guess about the spectrum of nicotine addiction is that it is just good old associative learning which is a very powerful albeit simple mechanism.

I think that's a good guess, it does seem likely that the same mechanism is at work. I don't think it is a simple one chemically. (I know that you said that in a conceptual sense and I agree.)

It may be that Pavlov's dog not only salivated to the ringing of the bell (ok, metronome etc. for purists), but that the dog also experienced greater enjoyment of subsequent meals which were accompanied by the bell.

 

[ladyraj]

I think that's a good guess, it does seem likely that the same mechanism is at work. I don't think it is a simple one chemically. (I know that you said that in a conceptual sense and I agree.)

It may be that Pavlov's dog not only salivated to the ringing of the bell (ok, metronome etc. for purists), but that the dog also experienced greater enjoyment of subsequent meals which were accompanied by the bell.

Using the Pavlov scenario...in smoking/vaping what is the primary and secondary association?

 

[gatsby]

Using the Pavlov scenario...in smoking/vaping what is the primary and secondary association?

I would suggest that the nicotine rush is the UCS so anything that has a near 100% co-occurrence with that rush is a primary CS. The inhale, smoke, throat hit all qualify and might explain why these things are all so important to us even though they might actually be considered noxious to others. When you think about a better PV/liquid combination wouldn't need to burn your throat and produce obvious vapor, but we seek these out like they are the drug we crave. Secondary and so on would be a complex stimulus set that includes the presence of the cigarette/PV, holding something in your hand, and all those habitual and ritual processes you go through including time of day, location etc. This is why when I was smoking I would flick my lighter even when I couldn't use it or why you might feel better just holding your PV. Now the tricky thing is that these actions might very well start releasing dopamine naturally since it is implicated in the 'reward' circuit' and over time might become primary CSs. All of this adds to the complexity of addiction as a suite of behaviors beyond simple craving for the drug. Of curse none of this applies to me because I only smoked and now vape because it makes me feel cool and look grown up.

 

[gatsby]

I think that's a good guess, it does seem likely that the same mechanism is at work. I don't think it is a simple one chemically. (I know that you said that in a conceptual sense and I agree.)

It may be that Pavlov's dog not only salivated to the ringing of the bell (ok, metronome etc. for purists), but that the dog also experienced greater enjoyment of subsequent meals which were accompanied by the bell.

I am sure that if Pavlov's dogs (also for purists) spent a 1/4 of there life expectancy eating with metronomes the meals without them would be lacking.

Also I feel like kicking myself for even saying it is simple because I spend a good part of my day discussing how the emergent properties of 'simple' associative and probabilistic learning affect complex behaviors (trust me even if that sounds interesting it is not). Honestly though when you look at the perfect storm of habitual behavior and chemistry involved in tobacco use it is amazing anyone ever quits.

 

[Mister]

Also my mildly educated guess about the spectrum of nicotine addiction is ...

Something about your subsequent posts makes me think that was quite a modest statement ;-)

Of course none of this applies to me because I only smoked and now vape because it makes me feel cool and look grown up.

ROFL! Me too, me too

Honestly though when you look at the perfect storm of habitual behavior and chemistry involved in tobacco use it is amazing anyone ever quits.

Very nicely put. Thanks for your insights gatsby!

 

[rengic]

There was someone on here a while back (Satire) that was going to experiment with concocting liquid with an inhibitor. Unfortunately, it appears he feel off the grid shortly after stating he was near completion (hope the two aren't related!)

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-not-complete-substitute-tobacco-smoking.html

 

[Kurt]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't MAO inhibitors occur naturally in tobacco?

I quit smoking less than a week ago, but i've always thought that if time proves it to be difficult, taking a low-dose MAOI would be worth a try.

I believe this is true, given the Ruyan test results. I don't know the actual action of the MAOIs, but given that nicotine is an amine prone to oxidation to cotamine, and given that nicotine is the plant's nature pesticide, it would certianly stand to reason the plant would try to inhibit oxidation of nicotine for its own protection. So whether BT adds them or they are naturally occuring in the plant, preserving nicotine as the free base is to both's advantage.

That said, MAOI's as antidepressants have a very long history. Side effects are anticholinergic, affecting the colon by relaxing smooth muscles. Also mood stabilization. The neurons morph in order to accommodate the long term usage of these drugs, thus creating not just a psychological addiction, but physical as well. How many here have suffered constipation after getting off of analogs, which is relieved by having a smoke? Cholinergic neurons are everywhere in body and brain. Aetylcholine is what nicotine mimics. In the brain this translates into a lighting up of all the higher thinking centers.

I believe the initial discomfort from stopping smoking is as much MAOI withdrawal as nicotine withdrawal. And this is a large part of the "what's missing" in vaping. Once you get past MAOI withdrawals, analogs are far less tempting.

Perhaps a low dose of an MAOI along with vaping would alleviate this problem.

I also think the rapid effect of smoking compared to vaping is largely due to what I call the "carbon monoxide clunk". Slight disorientation can be confused with an actual drug effect time. Also the nicotine adheres to smoke particles, which, unlike a vapor condensing mostly into the mouth and throat, are carried deeper into the lungs.

I am still grappling with the large difference in overall nicotine absorption from vaping compared to smoking, which is about 1:10, even with 36 mg vaping. I suspect that somehow nicotine from smoke is not as readily converted to cotamine as nic in a vapor, and that it is not really a difference in absorption, but rather nicotine from vaping is simply oxidized more easliy. Thus more similar amounts of cotamine with vaping and smoking (although smoking is still more), but a huge difference in nicotine free base itself. Mouth and throat absorption is more prone to normal metabolism to cotamine and B-3 niacin, but directly through the lungs goes into the blood too fast for these metabolites to form.

Just my thoughts. Comments welcome.
k

 

[Jherek]

Kurt wrote:

"I believe the initial discomfort from stopping smoking is as much MAOI withdrawal as nicotine withdrawal. And this is a large part of the "what's missing" in vaping. Once you get past MAOI withdrawals, analogs are far less tempting.

Perhaps a low dose of an MAOI along with vaping would alleviate this problem."


The naturally occurring MAOI in tobacco is harmine, a selective MAO-A, as opposed to non-selective MAOIs, like prescription Nardil or Parnate. Prescription MAOIs have been used for years as anti-smoking drugs, but these non-selective MAOIs have vicious side-effects and potentially lethel interactions with a variety of other medications and common foods, unlike harmine.

Harmine also occurs naturally in passion flower, an herb used for anxiety. Perhaps, passion flower taken as a tea or otherwise, could be used to wean off tobacco?

Two questions:

1. Is additional harmine and/or other MAOIs added to cigarettes by BT?

2. Could harmine be, in part, responsible for the sexual dysfunction, et cetera, caused by smoking? The non-selective MAOIs are known to cause sexual problems.

 

[frankie1]

This thread has been helpful as I have not been able to give up my last 4-5 analogs per day. I think I will try to harmine in tea concept. I have some Wellbutrin that was prescribed and I never used. I might try taking that and vaping. I just wonder how hard it is to quit the Wellbutrin. Also, I wonder about other herbs. There was one that was popular a few years ago...a mood enhancer, but I cannot remember the name. Does anyone else remember? There was a big thing about it because claims were being made about it's antidepressant effects and the FDA got involved. Was it Echinacea?

 

[four2109]

... I think I will try to harmine in tea concept. I have some Wellbutrin that was prescribed and I never used. I might try taking that and vaping. I just wonder how hard it is to quit the Wellbutrin. Also, I wonder about other herbs. There was one that was popular a few years ago...a mood enhancer, but I cannot remember the name. Does anyone else remember? There was a big thing about it because claims were being made about it's antidepressant effects and the FDA got involved. Was it Echinacea?

Was it St. John's Wort? That's the one I remember getting attention for possibly conflicting with other medications.
As for the Wellbutrin, after seeing my Dad on it, I won't even try it. Aggressive to the point of wreckless, completely different person. I would want someone around to monitor changes in my behavior.
I am going to look into the herbals too. I need to do something to relieve the funk. This thread makes so much sense of the last 6 months! I wouldn't do an MAOI because then I would have to continue that and vaping, ...and I trust Big Pharma about as much as I do Big Tobacco!

 

[frankie1]

YES St Johns Wort. I used that for a while and it does mellow you out some. Thanks for the heads up on wellbutrin. I don't take any meds and I want to avoid them if at all possible.

 

[Kurt]

This thread has been helpful as I have not been able to give up my last 4-5 analogs per day. I think I will try to harmine in tea concept. I have some Wellbutrin that was prescribed and I never used. I might try taking that and vaping. I just wonder how hard it is to quit the Wellbutrin. Also, I wonder about other herbs. There was one that was popular a few years ago...a mood enhancer, but I cannot remember the name. Does anyone else remember? There was a big thing about it because claims were being made about it's antidepressant effects and the FDA got involved. Was it Echinacea?

I don't think there is anything wrong with the tapering-off approach to quitting. If you are at 4-5 a day this week, try 3-4 a day next week, then 2-3, etc. I did this, and now about 5 weeks in, I am at 1-2 a week, with I am hoping the last of the withdrawals, save for nicotine, gone.

I would not recommend getting onto any anti-dep, although I did throw the thought out. I consider them armed and dangerous. I suggest just being patient with it. If after a couple of weeks you are not lower or even increasing, then perhaps other methods would be advised.

I do not recall the FDA being involved with St. John's Wort, but it acts as an SSRI anyway, not an MAOI. I do recall them being involved with banning tryptophan back in the 80s, likely so that prozac profits would be protected.

Another herb that is good for this is Rhodiola Rosea. Certainly has some anti-dep effects, but careful! It can be pretty speedy.

I think upping the nic is the best approach, personally. Remember: we only absorb a fraction of the nic we vape. Once I figured out that I actually needed more nic, not less, I was much better, but there will in general be a period of not fun for a couple of days.

Good luck!

 

[ShinKun]

Has anyone tried mixing some VG based St John's in their e-juice?

St. John's Wort (alcohol-free) - Oregon's Wild Harvest

The oral dosage is listed at 3ml/day but I wonder if it would be more effective vaped?

EDIT: I just noticed that particular one has some oils mixed in it

this one does not....
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/NAT090/ItemDetail?n=3939 3181

 

[frankie1]

Kurt: Thanks for that info. Could you explain this:
St. John's Wort, but it acts as an SSRI anyway, not an MAOI?

I have dripped 24 mg a couple of times today without an increase in palpitations and it really is helping. I have only smoked 1 so far and haven't even really thought about it.

 

[frankie1]

Shinkun: Hmmmmm I wonder. I know when I took it before it really calmed me down. I am a bit concerned about vaping herbs. I wonder if there is a difference in the way the body reacts to inhaled as opposed to ingested herbs.

 

[Kurt]

Kurt: Thanks for that info. Could you explain this:
St. John's Wort, but it acts as an SSRI anyway, not an MAOI?

I have dripped 24 mg a couple of times today without an increase in palpitations and it really is helping. I have only smoked 1 so far and haven't even really thought about it.

MAOI = monoamine oxidase inhibitor. It inhibits the oxidation of certain amines, namely epinephrine and dopamine, both "stimilating", thus keeping them around longer. This is essentially the anti-depressant effect of MAOIs.

SSRI= selective seretonin reuptake inhibitor. Keep seretonin from being reabsorbed back into the neuron, thus keeping it in the synapse longer. Often people say "I don't have enough seretonin, and this pill will make me have more of this "happy neurotransmitter", but the actual picture is very complicated, and scientists are still not sure of the actual anti-depressant mechanism of SSRIs. In fact, statistically they are barely better than placebo, so there may not be any anti-dep action at all, with a whole lotta bad side effects.

My point was that St. John's Wort acts like an SSRI, not a MAOI, so IF the issue was MAOI withdrawal, St. John's Wort may not be effective.

As for vaping it, I wouldn't. You could look up the structure of the active ingredient. If it is chemically bigger than nicotine, then it likely will not vaporize easily anyway and gum up the atty. Besides, its been shown that vaping is not a very efficient way of getting nicotine itself. So I would say eating St. John's Wort is better. Just watch out for too much sun exposure, as you can get a nasty rash.

 

[dragonpuff]

A few pieces of advice for anyone considering any antidepressant, from someone who's been around that block way too many times....

Please, do your research before you take a new prescription! Here's what you want to keep track of regarding antidepressants:

1) Know the dangerous side effects, especially those mood-related. ALL antidepressants can cause severe mood changes in some people, and they can get very bad very fast; you can literally go from being irritable to being suicidal in less than a week! Know what types of mood to watch out for, most likely it will start out as something that is totally unlike you, something that makes you wonder why you're acting that way. If you experience something like this, call your doctor immediately!

2) Know the range of dosage for your prescription. You want to know whether you're being prescribed a low or high dose, and every drug's dosage range is different. Make sure your doc starts you on the low dose and doesn't raise it too quickly. This is also important to know because some people have mood problems on low doses while others need high doses to reap any benefit at all. You need to know what dose is right for you and keep track of that.

3) Know the risk factors. Certain types of people are far more likely to have severe mood effects from these drugs. Be extra careful if you have a personal or family history of bipolar disorder: antidepressants can kick a bipolar tendency into overdrive even in someone who's never been bipolar.

4) If you do have mood effects that concern you, don't quit taking it abruptly, go to your doctor! Some of these drugs cause withdrawal if you stop taking them too fast; the withdrawal symptoms are mood and anxiety based and will likely make your mood condition worse. You will need your doc to gradually wean you off of them while watching for a worsening mood state.

I understand that most people will want to trust their doctor with all of these things, but i've seen a lot of good doctors make mistakes because they didn't have all the information the patient has. In my personal experience, i've had family members lose it completely from antidepressants because their doctors weren't aware (or weren't concerned ) that bipolar runs in our family. I've also had docs prescribe me doses that were too high for me, causing serious problems, just because their "other patients" handle those doses fine.

Bottom line: be extra-informed, and communicate with your doctor.

As for St. John's Wort, also talk to your doctor. Herbs can have the same hazards as prescriptions, especially if not used carefully. A friend of mine managed to OD on that stuff (he was trying to get high); he was pale and vomiting nonstop, and he should have gone to the hospital but he was so stubborn about doctors...

Of course, if you need antidepressants, take them. Just learn from my and my family's mistakes so you don't make your own

 

[four2109]

Having done some thinking after reading this thread last week... I had an Ahh Haa! moment.
In 2004, I experienced extreme depression, anxiety, weight gain, acne... Similar to what I have recently been experiencing lately.
At that time, I attributed it to family deaths/family illness demands, job changes...
UNTIL I read this thread!
So I dug out some old journal/calendars I had kept randomly over the years.
Of course "quitting smoking" is always such a "good thing" I didn't realize when this was happening, I had used a combination of "Smoke Away" and "Quest 1/2/3" to quit smoking for 4 months. I was thrilled to have quit smoking and never saw the coorelation between that and the depression/anxiety/acne/weight gain until now.
I have recently tried to reduce my nicotine levels and in the process was on the brink of destroying another personal relationship without realizing it!
It all makes so much sense now. Within 2 weeks without nicotine I was writing that I had been depressed all week and crying at night! Hello!! There were enough other things going on that I never made the connection. I was so proud that I wasn't smoking.
So, This Time...I immediatly upped my nicotine and began taking Passion Flower. I think Valerian and St John's Wort probably have similar effects....
I am so Pi$$ed at what they have done to my brain. It wouldn't bother me so much if it was known. In '85 I quit for 2 years, didn't miss a step. I was off in 2 days and done, didn't want one, couldn't stand to be around them. Then one day, 2 years later, talking with a smoker... it clicked,...I started back up. But I blame myself for that, it wasn't like it is now.

My Dad is 74.... Should he try to quit? What will he be up against? Is it worth it? I am not sure what to tell him.!!!!!???

 

[crashtestjeep]

That's the best thing you can do. I'm a heavy nicotine addict and cannot rely on e-cigs to satisfy my needs. For that, I use snus, dissolvables, nasal snuff and a pipe.

Off subject-but Port Charlotte is beautiful! I used to live in Clearwater n have a friend that lives down there-has family in Englwood as well. Her step dad owns the big HVAC A/C company there, you prob know him!