Menthol and nicotine interaction

[whelanska]

I smoked only (90% of the time) Parliaments for the couple years prior to last year as that's what my roommate smokes exclusively. Someone gave me a Marlboro Smooth a year ago, and whenever I've bought cigarettes since then it was my brand of choice (I always ended up smoking a lot of Parliaments as I'm constantly in "quitting mode" but never my roommate, so the Parliaments are always around).

I realize there's a lot of study over menthol cigarettes being more addictive due to effects of menthol in the throat, makes the poison easier to swallow, getting more nicotine faster, etc. I've been thoroughly analyzing my former smoking habits the last week and have realized that the times I ran out of Marlboro Smooths and ended up smoking Parliaments, I never felt as good.

All the research and articles online that I've read lead me to believe the menthol makes smoking better (subjectively speaking) because you're able to inhale more, smoke faster, basically mask much of the "pain" you feel when you smoke.

What confuses me is that I smoke Parliaments and Marlboro Smooths at about the same rate. My roommate smokes faster than I do, and he's always exactly halfway through his second cig when I'm done with whatever I'm smoking.

Is there another reason menthol might enhance the effects of nicotine? Would taking menthol lozenges or similar possibly add whatever that effect is back into the equation? I know there are a lot of eliquids with menthol, but I'm looking to understand if there actually is an interaction in there beyond the numbness it provides while smoking, or if it's all in my head.

 

[kinabaloo]

The key is probably smply that it helps alleviate the harshness.

Interestingly, however, the tobacco document archive suggests that menthol (a secondary alcohol based on mint oils) is in all tobacco products to a small extent; hmm, just to take away harshness? at such a low level ... or some other synergy effect?

Worth a look : Powered by Google Docs

One can assume that some of the most important documents went missing, just as they do in government cover-ups. There just might be something more in this.

 

[whelanska]

Thanks, that's a great summary of menthol/cigarette/nicotine research. I'm convinced (and I have to imagine this has been discussed elsewhere, just haven't found the thread yet) that there's a significant brain-level relationship between nicotine and menthol. This is anecdotal, but I find I can chain-smoke two or three Parliaments and get a cig buzz as I'd expect to. If I smoke one menthol cig, I feel much better than I do with multiple non-menthol cigs, even at an overall lower nicotine level. I think it goes much further than the "masking" effects of menthol on smoke inhalation.

One of the common explanations for the high level of menthol usage by lower income folks is that you inhale more, hold it in longer, etc. Menthol allows you to get more bang for your buck, and last longer between cigs. I definitely feel better longer w/ menthols, but, if I smoke three Parliaments/Camels/etc I should arguably feel as good for as long as I do with one menthol, but I don't.

Here are a couple excerpts from that document (just ignore the dying mice part ):

Other effects of menthol such as bronchodilation, respiration, and central nervous system effects also have been attributed to the effects of menthol on calcium conductance. Calcium is essential for nerve impulse conduction because it aids in the release of neurotransmitters. If menthol affects calcium conductance in nerve cells containing neurotransmitters involved in drug reinforcement, then menthol may affect smoking behavior by enhancing the reinforcing effects of tobacco.

Menthol is recognized mainly for its local effects. However, menthol also produces effects in the central nervous system as demonstrated by its ability to produce both stimulant and depressant behavior in mice (Macht, 1939). In this study, when high doses of menthol were administered orally to animals, the animals first became excited and this initial stimula-tion was followed by a depression of activity, unconsciousness, and then coma. It could be postulated that the stimulant and depressant effects of menthol on the central nervous system could affect smoking behavior by enhancing the reinforcing and addictive effects of cigarettes. However, the central nervous system effects of menthol cigarettes have not been documented and are highly speculative because it is difficult to isolate the effects of menthol in a cigarette smoke mixture.

Definitely something going on there. I'm one of those MAOI/"something is missing" nicotine addicts, so I'm going to start vaping a little more using menthol eliquid, see what happens. I wish I could travel 20 years into the future and buy Star Scientific's "Complete Cigarette Replacement, Alzheimer's Prevention & General Well-Being Pill," haha.

 

[whelanska]

Another interesting tidbit:

A preliminary examination (Sellers & Tyndale, unpublished data) indicated that menthol can inhibit nicotine metabolism with a moderate affinity (Ki~20–40 uM) but one that is higher than the affinity of nicotine metabolism to cotinine (Km~60 uM) and much higher than the affinity of cotinine to 3-OH cotinine (250 uM) (Ahijevych, Tyn-dale, Dhatt, Weed, & Browning, 2002). This finding suggests that menthol may be able to inhibit the metabolism of cotinine more extensively than nicotine, which could lead to the accumulation of cotinine in menthol cigarette smokers.

I found this interesting as I was just on the Wikipedia entry for cotinine, the nicotine metabolite, and it turns out (from Wikipedia):

Cotinine... has also been sold as an antidepressant under the brand name Scotine.

I've never heard of Scotine, don't know much about the cotinine metabolite compared to nicotine. Very curious now about cotinine's impact on mood. Anyone know if there's a thread somewhere around here that talks specifically about cotinine? The search box is giving me quite a lot to dig through...

 

[kinabaloo]

Good point. Quite possible.

Also, besides affecting the metabolism of nicotine (which certainly looks interesting) maybe menthol affects one or more of the non-nicotine starting point alkaloids.

 

[whelanska]

Does anyone know of a home cotinine test that would give me an accurate measure of cotinine levels in the urine? I know there are positive/negative types tests, but anything that might give ng/mL?

 

[kinabaloo]

Does anyone know of a home cotinine test that would give me an accurate measure of cotinine levels in the urine? I know there are positive/negative types tests, but anything that might give ng/mL?

Can't give any specifics here although a site search might pull up something. I believe though that nicotine tests of urine actually measure cotinine (or both).

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I did wonder in the past whether cotinine might act as a MAOI or achieve something similar, though on a lesser degree; forget why this came up now but might have the energy to search back for it later. So interesting about the 'Scotinine'

 

[kinabaloo]

My gut feeling on the menthol additive: I think it does something beyond reduce harshness - that's why its universally used in even 'non-menthol' tobaccos. I suspect though that what it does exactly might not be known; and that the effect is (much) more minor than the role of MAOIs (though these are mostly not additives but part of the tobacco).

 

[whelanska]

Agreed. I'm 100% convinced from my own experiences that menthol enhances the effects of nicotine (and possibly other alkaloids/substances in tobacco). I've read quite a few abstracts in research papers from studies on menthol cigarettes, and the link between cotinine blood levels and an increased level of addiction in menthol smokers is very solid. I have a hard time believing this is due to the pleasant "minty" taste alone.

Almost all news articles about menthol and addiction only discuss menthol's abilities to ease the discomfort of smoke inhalation. But, statistics show that African-Americans, of which ~75% PREFER menthols, have much higher cotinine levels than any other group of smokers when smoking menthols, yet most information available discusses only the marketing aspect of African-Americans and menthol cigarettes as a reason for their high levels of menthol cigarette use. Marketing has definitely played a role in selling menthols, but I believe there is also some high level mad science going on in the body when menthol is added to tobacco-smoke.

I actually made a small personal discovery this week related to menthol. Completely anecdotal, but I'll put it out there anyways.

Along with feeling better after smoking menthol cigarettes vs. non-menthols, I find I am a lot less hungry on menthols to boot. When I was only smoking my roommate's Parliaments about two weeks ago (I was only "bumming" cigs and not buying them on my own so I could rationalize it as being some step in the quitting process!) I found I was eating a lot more compared to the previous week when I was smoking my regular menthols.

A couple days ago I decided to buy a bag of Halls Cough Drops with a lot of menthol in them, and a box of peppermint tea. I've been sucking on lots of cough drops and drinking peppermint tea for a few days, and I haven't had barely any craving for sweets or fatty foods. It's pretty shocking, I honestly expected to experience no obvious effects. I've done some reading and peppermint is commonly used as an appetite suppressant. This is pretty common knowledge but not something I had been aware of. Usually when I stop smoking (menthols especially) I go from eating fairly healthy, good-for-you foods in small amounts, to raiding 7-11 for candy, fatty snacks and chips. Since I've been sucking on menthol I haven't even THOUGHT about sugary/fatty foods. I'm using snus and e-cigs, so I'm getting my tobacco alkaloids and nicotine, but the extremely reduced urge for bad foods only came after adding the menthol cough drops into my routine. Completely non-scientific, but hey, I'll put it out there in case anyone else is in a similar spot.

I bet big tobacco has the formula for the ultimate combined anti-depressant and cigarette-substitute sitting on a dusty shelf in a lab, and on the day when cigarettes are officially banned throughout the world they become the most profitable pharmaceutical company in the world, haha.

 

[kinabaloo]

All I found so far is the idea that menthol and peppermint make food less apetising. Lol. But maybe that is it ?

Very hard to find much that helps illuminate menthol's role in smoking, but that makes this an interesting topic ...

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There is some anecdotal evidence (my experiemce at least) that methol can substitute for nic/tobacco alkaloids to some extent.

 

[whelanska]

Haha. Hmm, I don't find it makes food less appetizing (as long as I don't have a Halls Cough Drop in my mouth when I'm eating).

I do avoid menthol around the same time as snus. If I have a cough drop and put a portion of snus in my mouth immediately afterwards it tastes a little funky!

 

[kinabaloo]

Seems menthol might be a weak opioid, like some of the MAOI alkaloids.

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In the past if I knew I couldn't smoke my choice of replacement was peppermints or Halls Eucalyptus/menthol Xtra Strong.

 

[whelanska]

Menthol is a kappa opioid receptor agonist so I think it's supposed to boost the effects of opiates, or at least reduce tolerance in heavy users (I'm not really into drugs so no personal experience with this ). I think DXM (cough syrup) is a commonly used kappa opioid receptor agonist amongst opiate users. I've happened upon a few drug forums in my search for menthol information and menthol is discussed but probably not used as an agonist as much as other substances that are more efficient.

From Wikipedia:

The involvement of the κ-opioid receptor in stress response has been elucidated.

κ-Opioid agonism is neuroprotective against hypoxia/ischemia; as such, κ-opioid receptors may represent a novel therapeutic target.

So, there are definitely some things happening there that could be related to mood. Hypoxia is a lack of oxygen to parts of the body. Possibly a correlation between menthol and feeling more "oxygenated" while smoking, haha.

Additionally, while overdose victims showed a large increase in κ-opioid receptors (doubled) in the NAcc,[46] κ-opioid agonist administration is shown to be effective in decreasing seeking and self-administration.[47] Furthermore, while abuse is associated with lowered prolactin response,[48] κ-opioid activation causes a release in prolactin,[49] a hormone known for its important role in learning, neuronal plasticity and myelination.

Menthol smokers go longer in between smokes. Curious if the opioid receptor agonist effects of menthol possibly contribute to that reduced urge to smoke when using menthols, similar to the scenario from above. The press always talk about the menthol smoker inhaling more deeply, smoking faster and holding smoke in the lungs longer as being the reason for greater breaks between cigarettes. Something more to it...

 

[kinabaloo]

So did you vape / snus less while on the Halls ?

 

[Stosh]

Very interesting thread, I was a "never touch a menthol" smoker. rather wait 'till I could get a real cig than smoke a menthol. Yet since I've been vaping it's one of my go to flavors. Looking back with 20-20 hindsight when I started e-cigs, trying the mandatory 50 flavors menthol was what I found myself going back to over and over.

I've also noticed a good number of flavor recommendations to noobs, from many vapers "never smoked a menthol, but it's my favorite now". If menthol is allowing me to get more nicotine faster, have it's effect last longer, or even a low level MAOI of some sort, I'm sticking with it.

 

[whelanska]

Yeah, I vape/snus less now. When I first stopped the menthol analogs and did e-cigs only, I was missing that "something" that everyone talks about here, and that was the first step... I got some snus and that took care of the "warmth" or "feeling normal" part of cigarettes, really balanced me out, no withdrawal at all. A clean transfer from analogs to snus. But, I still wasn't quite getting "there" all the way, still a "2nd something" missing from the mix. My "type" of hunger is a very good indicator to me as to whether or not my brain is balanced. Without any chemicals in my system at all I have a tendency to just want sugary/fatty foods all the time. I'm sure it has something to do with low serotonin/dopamine levels or whatever in the brain.

So, pre-menthol I was vaping a LOT more, along with the snus, and I even added some Nicorette into the mix, because I just wanted to hit every angle. I started gobbling menthol cough drops a couple days ago and I've barely picked up the e-cig except for when I smoke with someone else.

If my brain chemicals are "unbalanced" and I find myself craving sugary/fatty foods, pre-menthol I would typically take a hit on an e-cig or put a snus in, leading to a lot more nicotine/tobacco usage overall. Just trying to chase that "2nd something" but never getting it, and putting way too much nicotine in my system.

The menthol seems to curb cravings for sugar/fat, so I find myself using the e-cig/snus a lot less. I can't explain it, but I know it's working for me. (note: I mention food and cravings a lot in this post, don't want to give the impression that food is my issue or anything as it probably sounds like I have an eating disorder or something (no offense intended towards those who do ), but I've just learned over time that when I have a lot more of those cravings, my brain is usually off a little bit and needs addressing).

 

[whelanska]

Stosh: Yeah, I know a lot of folks who will never touch a menthol. My roommate, who smokes a lot more than I ever could/did, wouldn't touch a menthol if it were the last cigarette on earth. I'm not sure if it has to do with some taboo over "flavored" cigarettes and not being manly, or if he truly doesn't like the taste.

The first (terrible) e-cig I bought came w/ tobacco and vanilla flavors. It was cool, did the job (terribly). The second e-cig I bought (less terrible) came with menthol as the default flavor. I liked it a LOT better and have only touched the non-menthol flavoring when the battery on the second has died.

 

[kinabaloo]

We need to dig a bit more on the carbs/fats/* angle because it is a common replacement when people stop smoking. Just comfort food eating, or something more physiological as well as psychological ?

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Myself, didn't really ever like menthols much for many years, but there came a point where i no longer enjoyed normal cigs and then found that menthols were the answer. Will have to think more into that ...

 

[slopes]

I read somewhere (browsing around whilst on the WTA thread) that sugars are added to cigarette tobacco. Could that contribute to the withdrawal symptoms and the 'missing' element of e liquid?

 

[hippiebrian]

Wow, this explains why menthol juice is the only juice that really satisfies me. I was a regular pukearette smoker (Winston red or American Spirit Blue) but all I vape is menthol. MAOI's...that explains a lot.