Need American Manufacturers?

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jennydotz

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Do you think that if there were more American Manufacturing/Distributing of e-cigs it would lead to more political lobby power and a better position for us, or would it be worse? It seems like it would be too easy to ban ecigs in the US because there's no supporting muscle behind this mostly-import industry. Just thinking in b/w. ..

Could we pool our stimulus checks and open a factory. . .
 

LaceyUnderall

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I agree with Cash. I also don't think a ban is going to happen. I know we "feel" like an easy target, but if we weren't on this forum and we didn't read all of the anxiety and we were just an e-smoker, would we have this anxiety?

IMHO - We will see cigarettes banned before we see the e-cig banned. "New drug" or not, it's here to stay.

Edit: Here is some great reading to help subdue some anxiety regarding bans: http://www.tobaccoharmreduction.org/
 
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skex

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I would think that at a minimum local sourcing of e-juice would be useful just from the standpoint of quality control.

On thing to remember is that there are two main reasons that industries get regulated in this country.

One is to protect existing interests to erect barriers to entry into a market these regulations are generally promoted by industry lobbyists and don't kid yourselves most regulation that gets through congress is of this nature. This is where the Tobacco and Big Pharma people present a threat to this product.

The other is when public outrage reaches the point that the congress critters figure if they don't do something they'll be drummed out of office and loose access to all the money that comes from the lobbyists working on the other source of regulatory preasure.

The FDA USDA and OSHA weren't created because congress was sitting around bored one day and said "gee lets piss off all these big companies that give us all these campaign contributions" no they happened because public outcry reached a deafening level.

The first will be the harder fight and will be hard to avoid and I would highly recomend that the suppliers need to get together and form a trade group to fight against it.

The second however can be short circuited by proactive behavior. Because all those regulations came into existence because some ....... in the past behaved badly and brought the regulatory hammer down on everyone.

My suggestion is to do more than the minimum in ensuring safety of the product. Check the ingredients used make sure there aren't any known health issues. Don't use any that are questionable (other than Nicotine obviously). Make sure your suppliers are using the best practices to avoid contamination.

Get in front of issues such as recycling, How much of this stuff can be reconditioned and reused? I'm sitting here looking at my Classic Penstyle thinking at a minumum the tubes should be reusable. Talk to the manufacturers about closing some of the supply loop. See if you can convince them to take back cores to recondition rather than having people chuck their old atomizers and batteries in the trash. Hell maybe it would be cost effective to recondition them in the U.S, bringing atomizers and batteries in bulk from the Chinese manufacters. (Oh yeah I'd try to stay as far away from disposables as you can we're entering into an age where people are going to be more environmentally concious and I just see nothing good about a product that's going to add even more crap to landfils than is needed.)

Check those manufactures see if some have better safety and labor practices if so use them as prefered sources. Push them to meet reasonable labor standards even if it pushes the price up a bit it will win you some good will and gain allies in the cause.

Oh get some child safety bottles for the liquids get some literature out to warn people to store this crap outside the reach of children do this before some ..... leaves his 36mg bottle out for some toddler to chug down and die from.

I really think the most important thing is for suppliers to get together and form a trade group pool your resources to be able to sponsor some safety research, Get some lines of communication with any reasonable health advocacy group that you can. Do some PR work get some positive spin, buy some add time that will get you some more balanced news articles, you don't really think that GE is trying to sell Jet Engines on CNN do you?

While you may be competitors in business you need to be allies to some extend as well.

Suppliers that want to operate in unethical counterproductive ways can be left out that will give those of you who are in the trade group something you can point to. Kind of like the organics movement a way for you to be differentiated from fly by night MBA holding scam artists.

Basically be proactive answer the critics before they get a chance to criticize, make sure you've done everything you reasonably can to counter their arguments in advance.

I really think this product has the potential to be a really good thing but it also has a huge potential to be a really bad thing. As TB has pointed out many times there is a ton of crap that is real dodgy about these things some mysterious chemical cocktail that you are "vaporizing" and inhaling into your lungs. There is just so much that can go wrong with that.

So self police because if you fail to do so it's only a matter of time before someone does something stupid and brings down the that second form or regulation. Hell it would probably be in your interest to sponsor and push some of your own regulations to short circuit that process.
 

lordmage

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+1 kex but because all or most suppliers are in the same market nation and world wide they will not work like you suggest however if a trade group where formed that included them and customers of any level. anywhere when some thing needs public out cry we need to moblize fast and counter if Twitter if nessary. i bring to point lance armstrongs bike was returned due to outcry. of course membership in the group would come at a fee which would pay for research and testing for safety and the like and for outcry realted things. and i think at least members for suppliers and the like membership also means that the companies they deal with are as safe as possible from start to end product. also would help to stop making more and refine what we got
 

TropicalBob

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Skex, I agree with much of what you say. A trade group of quality manufacturers could do much to advance e-smoking. The one part I take issue with is this:

(Oh yeah I'd try to stay as far away from disposables as you can we're entering into an age where people are going to be more environmentally concious and I just see nothing good about a product that's going to add even more crap to landfils than is needed.)

Here's my problem. We're in an age where it is not economically feasible to repair just about anything this side of a car. Cameras, TVs, calculators, remote controls, computers and monitors, game consoles -- all get tossed because repair is more expensive than replacement. Even setting up the recycle program costs more than can be recovered in recycling. Entire city recycle programs are collapsing in financial failure -- and the move away from feel-good recycling is beginning.

Few still use their Zippo lighters. You have to refill them, replace the flint, and they come with a lifetime warranty. Doesn't matter. The world moved to Bics that are used up and tossed atop the landfill.

The true mass market for e-smoking lies in the availability of inexpensive disposable e-cigarettes available at every gas station, shopping mall, airport and 7-Eleven. Disposables are the Bics of e-devices. Present e-smokers will be free to continue to futz with, refill, reorder, replace, clean, spill liquid, etc. They will be the Zippo types, a small minority within a minority.

My hope is that the sagging economy brings back repair as being financially feasible. We are a very wasteful society. No question in my mind about that. But it is all a balancing act -- of value gained against expense. At present, the balance tips to use-and-toss.
 

LaceyUnderall

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skex -

I agree whole heartedly with your post. We have been discussing an association for suppliers and Liberate_Yourself is starting a program where a percentage of sales goes to a "fund" to start testing. From what I have read throughout this forum, the suppliers are on the ball and working through what we can to make the e-cig industry safe for all. It is hard without massive funding, but we are all working on a way to do it... I know we are hounding our manufacturer daily for more tests... more this and more that and they are complying.

While TB has a point about our "disposable" society... I agree with you and I think those days are coming to an end. There is huge progress being made in things like solar panels for homes which once were extremely expensive and now... are becoming less expensive with better technology and lower fees. (I still have massive concern about the disposable e-cig. You think our "...." problems are big now... wait until they start tossing their disposable e-cigs out the window. We WILL see strict restrictions when there are batteries lying all over the place.)

But then again, our household composts, recycles, lives within walking distance to grocery, school etc and consumes what we need. Our garbage is down to one bag a week for a family of three and sometimes, even less than that. So I look at everything differently.
 

TropicalBob

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I'd love to be on a panel to think outside the e-cig box as far as disposables are concerned. Our present devices are not tomorrow's evolved disposables. For instance:

Why a metal tube? Works for something needing to last a year or more, but a disposable could be a hard cardboard-type tube.

Why a long battery? To make these look like cigarettes, that's all. Why not a button battery of the type used in hearing aids?

Why liquid? Why not a gel that lasts longer?

And why not a device that when crushed begins to disintegrate?

This technology is in its infancy. It's ...... on itself right now, crying and kicking, but learning has begun. Give it a chance to grow and you'll see vastly different devices coming to market. Development of e-smoking has barely begun. I'm almost certain our present devices will be laughed at a decade from now, sold in antique stores beside the 1950s fish-bowl black-and-white TV set.
 

LaceyUnderall

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This technology is in its infancy. It's ...... on itself right now, crying and kicking, but learning has begun. Give it a chance to grow and you'll see vastly different devices coming to market. Development of e-smoking has barely begun. I'm almost certain our present devices will be laughed at a decade from now, sold in antique stores beside the 1950s fish-bowl black-and-white TV set.

OH TB - I do hope you are right! That means they are here to stay!:wub:
 

Cage

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Even setting up the recycle program costs more than can be recovered in recycling. Entire city recycle programs are collapsing in financial failure -- and the move away from feel-good recycling is beginning.

That's exactly what is... feel-good recycling.
I'm all for saving the planet but take a look around.
I see my neighbors carefully separating their trash on a weekly basis.
While we're busy recycling, the apartment complex down the road has a fleet of garbage trucks going in and out to empty the dumpsters, which have no rules on recycling. (I also believe this is how Saddam Hussein got the WMD's out of Iraq)

Homeowners can be fined if they mix non-recyclables in the general trash and vice-versa. Apartment dwellers are free to discard anything and everything into one dumpster. If the city is serious about recycling, why not have separate receptacles at apartment complexes? Because people won't bother and they know it, so why spend the money?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea... but the pigs outnumber the farmers 10,000 to 1. I take pride in leaving nature the way I found it, it's just frustrating when the guy upstream uses the river as a toilet.

just my 2 cents.
 

skex

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Watch battery? I thought the whole justification for the screw driver was that the AA AAA sized Li-Ion weren't powerful enough to really get the job done.

If that's the case then a watch battery sure ain't gonna cut it. I do agree that the evolution on these device is only just begun I think if they can get past the innitial legal regulatory hurdles then they will take some completely different shapes sizes and we'll start to see additional improvements.

That being said I really think focusing on disposables is outdated thinking. One of the bigest complaints people have had about cigarettes for years has been the trash that they create. all those cigarette butts pilling up in every nook and cranny of the planet. This is non-sustainable thinking.

Metal casings are good because they are 100% reusable/recycleable just keep screwing in new consumable parts until they are obsoleced then melt them down to make something else.

That's the whole point of recylcling we know that there is a certain amount of crap that just has to be disposed of because can't be reused or broken down in a reasonable timeframe or is simply too toxic to deal with. But the idea is to minimize that.

The disposable society we live in today was a result of people who didn't take a long view how had no concept of scale who had no consideration for those who would come after them.

We now know that is crap that there is a cost to that sort of thinking to our quality of life.

One of the major arguments in favor of these devices is harm minimization. That idea should be continued to the production and use the devices themselves.

Recycling and reusing is harm minimization to the environment taking this sort of stand will gain the product allies who would otherwise side with the opposition and would show a consistency that could be used to blunt potential attacks.

Sticking with that sort of device would be a proactive measure to minimize resistance to the product. It would also be a far better way for smaller independent suppliers to stay in the business. Disposable devices of the sort you are talking about will be dominated by one or two big players which will reduce the influence of consumers and increase the odds of all the sorts of dishonest misleading nonsense that we are seeking to avoid.
 

skex

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That sounds good, but ...

let's see how it plays out over the next year. We all VOTE with our wallets.


My experience tends to be we get what they want to sell us.

I see this being an almost unique opportunity for a new product to follow different rules than that which has come before.

There are not yet any major economic players involved yet I see this product literally exploding over the next year. This is a lot like the early days of the tech revolution where certain philosophical business models were beat against each other.

Closed archetecture vs open architecture. For all Microsofts faults it was on the open architecture side of the equation while despite all the artsy fartsy love people have for Apple Jobs was on the Closed side.

You know why you use a PC today? (yes even your Apple has an intel proccessor now) And why Microsoft OWNS APPLE? Because while gates provided a common operating platform (OS) he left the hardware end open. Apples OS only ran on Apple hardware you could only get software from Apple to run on it their products while solid performers were much more expensive and had far more limited options for upgrades and expansion.

On the other side the Microsoft world had multiple chip makers thousands of software developers hundreds of different hardware vendors and even multiple operating systems. Like I always tell all my Microsoft hating Linux loving coworkers it it hadn't been for Bill Gates and Microsoft there would have been no Linus and Linux.

So today the odds are that you are working on a computer using x86 architecture running either a microsoft OS or some Linux derivitive.

Computers are commodity items that are affordable and abundant they've changed the world in ways that the early pioneers could never have imagined.

This is the time to strike this is the moment when the iron is hot. While the electronic cigarette isn't going to be as revolutionary as the computer it's what suppliers do today that will determine what the future will look like.

There is still a huge market out there of people desperate to get away from the negative impacts of smoking tobacco and I think the authorities are going to have a real hard time coming down on these devices as long as the suppliers take some basic precautionary measures.

Victory goes to those who take innitiative. If you are reacting your already loosing.

I stand by my earlier advice the suppliers need to form a trade group to find common ground and form some collective legal and regulatory strategies. I also say that disposable devices are a looser from the small distributor's standpoint. The types of devices TB is talking about will be made by huge conglomerates sold directly to retailers with minimal margins. What you want are specialty devices with minimal consumable parts because none of the suppliers involved in this board will be able to compete with Ruyan when it comes to marketing disposables.
 

TropicalBob

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I get what you mean. I just see it differently. And I'll say no more. This is far too wordy to state a simple personal conclusion about the future of disposables and whether they are desirable. Sorry, but I've posted what I feel on this topic, so let others return to the question in the main topic. You've been very clear about your position. I respect that.
 

Criticalmass

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My experience tends to be we get what they want to sell us.

I see this being an almost unique opportunity for a new product to follow different rules than that which has come before.

There are not yet any major economic players involved yet I see this product literally exploding over the next year. This is a lot like the early days of the tech revolution where certain philosophical business models were beat against each other.

Closed archetecture vs open architecture. For all Microsofts faults it was on the open architecture side of the equation while despite all the artsy fartsy love people have for Apple Jobs was on the Closed side.

You know why you use a PC today? (yes even your Apple has an intel proccessor now) And why Microsoft OWNS APPLE? Because while gates provided a common operating platform (OS) he left the hardware end open. Apples OS only ran on Apple hardware you could only get software from Apple to run on it their products while solid performers were much more expensive and had far more limited options for upgrades and expansion.

On the other side the Microsoft world had multiple chip makers thousands of software developers hundreds of different hardware vendors and even multiple operating systems. Like I always tell all my Microsoft hating Linux loving coworkers it it hadn't been for Bill Gates and Microsoft there would have been no Linus and Linux.

So today the odds are that you are working on a computer using x86 architecture running either a microsoft OS or some Linux derivitive.

Computers are commodity items that are affordable and abundant they've changed the world in ways that the early pioneers could never have imagined.

This is the time to strike this is the moment when the iron is hot. While the electronic cigarette isn't going to be as revolutionary as the computer it's what suppliers do today that will determine what the future will look like.

There is still a huge market out there of people desperate to get away from the negative impacts of smoking tobacco and I think the authorities are going to have a real hard time coming down on these devices as long as the suppliers take some basic precautionary measures.

Victory goes to those who take innitiative. If you are reacting your already loosing.

I stand by my earlier advice the suppliers need to form a trade group to find common ground and form some collective legal and regulatory strategies. I also say that disposable devices are a looser from the small distributor's standpoint. The types of devices TB is talking about will be made by huge conglomerates sold directly to retailers with minimal margins. What you want are specialty devices with minimal consumable parts because none of the suppliers involved in this board will be able to compete with Ruyan when it comes to marketing disposables.

Nicotine in low doses is used sometimes to treat depression. Scientists seem to think that smokers take up cigarettes to help self medicate without even realizing they are doing so. This is why, they believe, that there is a higher rate of smokers among people suffering from depression.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
 

BardicDruid

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Nicotine in low doses is used sometimes to treat depression. Scientists seem to think that smokers take up cigarettes to help self medicate without even realizing they are doing so. This is why, they believe, that there is a higher rate of smokers among people suffering from depression.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
4 years ago that research wasn't out.
 
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