Yes, I have one of "those" ex-smoker friends who will not accept vaping... he had health concerns to the point he went to see a cardiologist and since quitting "cold-turkey" (i.e. meds) all he does is cite his cardiologist about the terrible harm nicotine causes. He feels that e-cigs should be treated the same as analogs... the more we debated I could tell I wouldn't be able to reason with him, but he did bring up a point that I couldn't argue. So, does anyone know if there is "second-hand nicotine" or is 100% the nicotine that we intake as vapor stay within our own body (i.e. immediately absorbed) - regardless of inhalation, mouth-hold, etc., or would one have an argument that we are still "inflicting" poison upon others?
Need help with an argument w/ ex-smoker...
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Ruyan studied "second hand vape", along with virtually everything else about the vapour composition. Here:
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08.pdf
Summary - 98% of nicotine is absorbed by the user, and theres no side-stream from the tip, theres no appreciable nic in second hand vapour (or anything else worth worrying about)
Your ex-smoker fella sounds very illogical and unreasonable. Type of guy who still beleives the world is flat unreasonable. Nicotine does have some negative health effects (heart rate, blood pressure etc), but its nothing _at all_ like tobacco smoking far more akin to caffiene.
If he personally wants an informed opinion, he should look at all the research by ruyan, as well as a point by point comparison of just nicotine health effects versus all of smokings health effects.
His position is completely and utterly untenable, but you shouldn't have to do his thinking for him. He's probably just jelly, lol!
FYI, ruyan are doing a study on the effectiveness for quitting this year (triple blind, and finally well have those numbers, yay!).
I think by the end of this year or next, ruyan will probably have fully completed its required study on safety and efficacy and should be able to register here in new zealand as a medicine (research so far has been all 100% good, and theres been a fair bit).
Maybe that can use the same research to apply in canada, and the EU, if they go that way too, as medicines, seeing as the process should be roughly, or even, exactly, the same research wise.
That will shut some people up, and fix some silly situations. Thank god for science
Its also a pretty good long-play plan on that part of Ruyan. Even if vaping is accepted in a lot of places, theres bound be a few that take a more "its medicine" route, or have that route available for awhile. In those places, it will be ruyan's game.
It should help silence all the lying and speculating on the part of the highly biased anti-smoking lobby too (and people like your ex-smoking buddy)
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08.pdf
Summary - 98% of nicotine is absorbed by the user, and theres no side-stream from the tip, theres no appreciable nic in second hand vapour (or anything else worth worrying about)
Your ex-smoker fella sounds very illogical and unreasonable. Type of guy who still beleives the world is flat unreasonable. Nicotine does have some negative health effects (heart rate, blood pressure etc), but its nothing _at all_ like tobacco smoking far more akin to caffiene.
If he personally wants an informed opinion, he should look at all the research by ruyan, as well as a point by point comparison of just nicotine health effects versus all of smokings health effects.
His position is completely and utterly untenable, but you shouldn't have to do his thinking for him. He's probably just jelly, lol!
FYI, ruyan are doing a study on the effectiveness for quitting this year (triple blind, and finally well have those numbers, yay!).
I think by the end of this year or next, ruyan will probably have fully completed its required study on safety and efficacy and should be able to register here in new zealand as a medicine (research so far has been all 100% good, and theres been a fair bit).
Maybe that can use the same research to apply in canada, and the EU, if they go that way too, as medicines, seeing as the process should be roughly, or even, exactly, the same research wise.
That will shut some people up, and fix some silly situations. Thank god for science
Its also a pretty good long-play plan on that part of Ruyan. Even if vaping is accepted in a lot of places, theres bound be a few that take a more "its medicine" route, or have that route available for awhile. In those places, it will be ruyan's game.
It should help silence all the lying and speculating on the part of the highly biased anti-smoking lobby too (and people like your ex-smoking buddy)
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I had a heart attack in November, so I talk to a cardiologist pretty regularly. According to mine, nicotine -- in the amount we vape or smoke it -- doesn't cause any permanent harm. A temporary increase in blood pressure, and that's it. It's the other stuff (the stuff you don't get when you vape) that kills you.
Now, as far as second-hand nicotine... there are going to be trace amounts of it in exhaled vapor. But, again, it's not going to hurt anyone. If there's a danger in second-hand smoke (and it's debatable how great that danger really is), it's not the nicotine.
Incidentally, when I told my cardiologist I was vaping now, he smiled, shook my hand, marked me down on a chart as a non-smoker, and congratulated me.
Now, as far as second-hand nicotine... there are going to be trace amounts of it in exhaled vapor. But, again, it's not going to hurt anyone. If there's a danger in second-hand smoke (and it's debatable how great that danger really is), it's not the nicotine.
Incidentally, when I told my cardiologist I was vaping now, he smiled, shook my hand, marked me down on a chart as a non-smoker, and congratulated me.
Contact CASAA at board@casaa.org for studies on exhaled nicotine.
I seem to remember there is a study that shows you get more nicotine from eating a tomato than being in a locked room with a vaper.
And check out this study by a cardiologist on the effect of vaping on the heart...
VPLive Vape Team Episode #25: Proof Positive - YouTube
cactus, you've already got great responses above. Just wanted to add, after seeing a few of these kinds of scenarios talked about on ECF, I think sometimes people just can not accept the truth about e-cigs. It's ex-smokers a lot of the time. Sometimes I think they just can't accept the fact they had to quit the hard way and that anything else is kinda cheating and so not as good. Good luck with your friend, but sometimes there's just nothing you can do.
Thanks for that... I'll definitely give a thorough read.
Actually, he's very logical and that's why I enjoy debating with him so often... tonight was vaping and gun-control
FYI, ruyan are doing a study on the effectiveness for quitting this year (triple blind, and finally well have those numbers, yay!).
I think by the end of this year or next, ruyan will probably have fully completed its required study on safety and efficacy and should be able to register here in new zealand as a medicine (research so far has been all 100% good, and theres been a fair bit).
...
That will shut some people up, and fix some silly situations. Thank god for science
I certainly hope so...
Thanks for your insight Drael - it's very much appreciated
Yeah I get that about ex-smokers... but he was literally terrified since his younger brother (in great shape) had a heart attack, and he found out that he has a genetic predisposition for heart failure so now he feels that anything (however irrational it may seem) that may affect his heart - he is against. I'm just trying to get him on "our side" and realize that vapers aren't going to kill him. And, he shouldn't battle against our efforts to have them not in the same classification as analogs.
Thanks Trick... sorry you had an HA, but glad you made it through. Your words help me in that I can now offer an experience from someone who has undergone what his fear is and that another cardiologist congratulated you on switching to vaping. Since my friend is taking to heart (pun sort-of intended) everything his cardiologist is saying, maybe the only way for him to accept vaping is to ask his cariologist, "What would you say if I were to take up vaping?" Maybe that could work?
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Thanks DC@ I will check them out. I'm just trying to arm myself to debate any argument against vaping and to get others to understand/accept how "beneficial" an alternative it is to smoking.
The ex-smokers are mean about vaping! It seems to be a jealousy issue. Quitting cold turkey sucks. Vaping is an "easy way out" to them. What matters is that we are not lighting up, sucking in nasty smoke, blowing out nasty smoke, flicking dirty ashes, filling up ashtrays, or stomping butts out on the ground. Oh yeah, we are not jonezing while reading this description
I think you are very close to finding the hidden agenda in the argument. We often overlook the simple laws of nature, such as it is better to lead by example.
I don't think your bud wants a debate. Seems to me he might want relief from his fears. Maybe a gentler approach might strike a cord with him? Sometimes, all any of us need is a tad of understanding...
Take care of you, cactus. All the rest will fall into place. My best to you and your friend.
I don't think your bud wants a debate. Seems to me he might want relief from his fears. Maybe a gentler approach might strike a cord with him? Sometimes, all any of us need is a tad of understanding...
Take care of you, cactus. All the rest will fall into place. My best to you and your friend.
Based on that research, how many mom's will vape, in a closed room, with a newborn infant therein?
Pedal to the metal here.
I guess some {very brave} mom would have to be wiling to expose her newborn to vapor for the good of science before you really know
I can honestly say, that mom would NOT be me.
Yeah that could be true... and since we've been good friends (like brothers really) for nearly half our lives, maybe there's a bit of (unwarranted) concern over my health - you know - projection right. That's why I cut him some slack with the griping but damn I wish I could just reason with him on this... I just don't want anybody bad-mouthing or ill-willing vaping.
Maybe. Vaping's still new and there are some unknowns, which scare people -- probably even some cardiologists. Depending on his doctor's knowledge and beliefs on the subject, he may get a different answer than I did... but it'd be interesting to hear it.
And thanks... though in my case my heart attack was probably a good thing. Better one you survive than a worse one later that you don't.
I read through the report and although I believe it to be true... all someone has to do to "debunk" this is to refer to the studies performed by "Big Tobacco" in the past here in the US. A study performed by the manufacturer is immediately scrutinized and questioned: "Financial disclosure. This report is funded by Ruyan" so it wont hold up and won't get any traction from "non-receptive" folks. Thanks though it was informative.
Maybe. Vaping's still new and there are some unknowns, which scare people -- probably even some cardiologists. Depending on his doctor's knowledge and beliefs on the subject, he may get a different answer than I did... but it'd be interesting to hear it.
And thanks... though in my case my heart attack was probably a good thing. Better one you survive than a worse one later that you don't.
Sure, especially since he's already quit smoking, I can't imagine his cardiologist would "condone" it, but maybe he could just have the conversation and, at a minimum, maybe hear that it is a valid/healthier alternative with no harm to others. Also, I can honestly say that I can't imagine anyone saying that having a heart attack was a "good thing"
but yes... definitely better than a worse one later - great mindset and way to tough it out Trick! 
Download and show him this... Dr David Baron, Chief of Staff, UCLA Santa Monica Hospital... goes over how wrong your friend's doctor is.. Part 2 specifically says nothing harmful in second hand vapor even around a child.
Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRr8KubdhCA
Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=jtCiq2kafe8
Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRr8KubdhCA
Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=jtCiq2kafe8
I thought I was having a heart attack. My father died at 52 from a massive heart attack, and his grandfather before him the same thing. High blood pressure, etc, is the norm in my family. When I went to the dr , not only was I not having a heart attack, my heart is healthier than ever, my lungs are clearing up, and my dr. has only positive things to say about my vaping. My lungs were expanding and I wasn't used to it ! That is pretty cool.
If vaping is that bad then why are there humidifiers that you put vicks in to breath? Of whatever other things that you "steam" to ingest?
Not buying this from you friend. When you brought "gun control" into it, it sound like more of a control issue over others than anything else.
Should wood stoves for home heating be banned because of smoke?
Should vicks be banned because of "mentholyptum" vapors?
Should eggplant and tomato plants be banned because they are part of the nightshade family?
Should dust be banned because some people are allergic to dust? Hell the dust buster patrol would love my house some days lol.
I think if it was my friend and we were good friends, I would have to agree to disagree. Whatever worked for him didn't work for you and your friend should respect that regardless of whether or not he thinks it is the right thing.
I don't think you are literally vaping in your friends face so aside from that, he has to live his own life and you have to live yours.
I have friends who aren't really sure on the vaping, but they are glad I am not on the smokes so for now it is what it is. I don't "vape in their face" so it's not their concern.
And if they want to come to my home and tell me what to do then I can tell them where the door is. That has never been an issue, we all respect boundaries.
Good luck with your friend, I hope it works out well for you and you can remain friends.
If vaping is that bad then why are there humidifiers that you put vicks in to breath? Of whatever other things that you "steam" to ingest?
Not buying this from you friend. When you brought "gun control" into it, it sound like more of a control issue over others than anything else.
Should wood stoves for home heating be banned because of smoke?
Should vicks be banned because of "mentholyptum" vapors?
Should eggplant and tomato plants be banned because they are part of the nightshade family?
Should dust be banned because some people are allergic to dust? Hell the dust buster patrol would love my house some days lol.
I think if it was my friend and we were good friends, I would have to agree to disagree. Whatever worked for him didn't work for you and your friend should respect that regardless of whether or not he thinks it is the right thing.
I don't think you are literally vaping in your friends face so aside from that, he has to live his own life and you have to live yours.
I have friends who aren't really sure on the vaping, but they are glad I am not on the smokes so for now it is what it is. I don't "vape in their face" so it's not their concern.
And if they want to come to my home and tell me what to do then I can tell them where the door is. That has never been an issue, we all respect boundaries.
Good luck with your friend, I hope it works out well for you and you can remain friends.
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