New Member + A bone to pick with the community

[Ryedan]

Thanks Ryedan, you save me a lot of typing! Lol!

Here you go. The Great Nicotine Myth

You're very welcome . And thank you right back for the link Coldrake. That's exactly what I was looking to find again

 

[Robino1]

I just feel wrong calling an e cig. I get the point of its to capture an audience but I have gotten Ppl to switch with out calling an e CIG. But I'm patient enough to explain what I'm talking about. And to date I have converted 6 ppl just walking down the st vaping. But I have to admit a large part is there are a few local vape shops so the convenience issue can't come to play, but I feel there has to be a better way to go about it other than calling it an e "cigarette"

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk

We are finally just getting the media to call it vapor instead of smoke. Baby steps lead to walking and then running. Someday, hopefully in my lifetime, it will be known as vaping and PV's commonly. Until then, we make due with what we have. Educate in your personal circles and that will spread to your circle's circle. That, in itself, makes an impact.

 

[HighEnd]

Good topic. IMO if someone is asking, they are considering it and just like there were candy cigarettes in my childhood days, there's vaping now, only... You're suppose to be over 18 to buy it. There are so many flavored ejuices; the kids are going to want to try them especially with the cool-factor associated with the different mods, cloud-chasing, etc... It's here and it's here to stay. I say educate educate educate. Everyone should throw in their 2 cents.

 

[FourWinds]

You're very welcome . And thank you right back for the link Coldrake. That's exactly what I was looking to find again

Nicotine, and 'addiction' and 'dependence.'

I read the thread, and R's post and the linked things.

The thing is though, all of us ex-smokers know very well that when we deprived ourselves of nicotine, we knew damn well we were deprived of nicotine. And if we used NRT to get some nicotine into our systems, we knew damn well that there was nicotine about the place again. To me this satisfies the criteria and nicotine is both addictive and causes physiological dependence. I don't feel the need to look at research, discuss the 'only relevant trial' and play with semantics.

There is another thing though: most of us will also have concluded (or looked at non biased studies) that NRT doesn't work as a smoking cessation tool. I'm still pondering over why this may be myself.

I don't think that the knowledge of the latter thing necessitates us trying to convince ourselves that nicotine isn't addictive.

 

[zanedog]

NRT is slow release, you like the nice fast delivery from a cigarette and the beast part of your brain tells you to 'deliver it fast, deliver it fast'

I still think that the ECF library should not have such an unsubstantiated post like 'the myths of nicotine' It is contradicting such a vast amount of research and dismissing it out of hand. Newcomers may be fooled into believing it. Make a 'post by approval only' and see how far the arguements last in that silly post. It's so far from the norm, that that very post that calls something else propoganda, is itself that very thing. NICOTINE HAS BEEN PROVEN AS AN ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCE. When the delivery system is burning tobacco, especially the tobacco that has been formulated to be extra addictive, it is more, I'll give it that. why why why try to tell someone this is not an addictive substance to the majority of the genotypes?

If we wish to believe the jury is still out, thats fine, but again, there is little debate in the scientific that nicotine itself is an addictive substance to a certain percentage of the population.

Hey, even {OTHER STUFF} are not addictive to 100 percent of the population. Genetic variations are being proven to play a huge role in the nature of addiction. To have that post stand as part of the library, well I guess time will tell. I did report the post to admin, but it seems that no one cares. It takes away from the credibility of ECF itself. To deny nicotine is an addictive substance is simply rediculous, and to post it into a library section of a forum where there can be no debate, and to call the other side 'propoganda' lol. Makes the whole community look uneducated and ill informed. ECF owns that forum and I am certain my time here will be limited, as there is no way they will take that post down, they will just continue to let it stand and have newcomers believe that it's a MYTH THAT NICOTINE IS ADDICTIVE.

There is also little debate that tobacco adds to the nicotine addiction. It's a well known that the tobacco companies manipulated their product to make it more addictive. The delivery system itself is about the fastest you can get. Add to that, the closely guarded research that Big Tobacco did to ensure users will want their products lol. Try this, grow some organic tobacco, smoke it. It's not really that bad for you. The whole black lung thing? The industry gave up on that after it was discovered that they were using pigs lungs blackened with chemicals to show around in the scary videos released. Does anyone here know what the Surgeon General himself said when he came onto national televison in 1990 and told the nation of the dangers of smoking? Can anyone answer what his opinion on the majority of the cancer cases were?

To just grab simple logic, for a large percentage of the population, tobacco nicotine delivery at the top of the scale, the cigs that big tobacco sells would be a 10, slower forms of delivery and unadulterated forms, each of them further down the list. It's also well known that one of the primary causes of lung cancer is the use of fertilizers with radioactive isotopes in them. All of this stuff has been buried, does this community wish to bury the FACT that nicotine is an addictive substance as well? Certainly seems that way. From the top on down, we are just gonna rest on our laurels that nicotine isn't addictive?? Seems to me thats the exact same stance that big tobaco took as well.

Lets not let history repeat, Nicotine, and it HAS been agreed upon in the addiction research community is an addictive substance.

Why does this community wish to hide that fact?

 

[zanedog]

sorry for my rant. I'll start my own thread.

 

[zanedog]

I know what it's like for me to be addicted to smoking. To trying to quantify it, I'll use a scale of difficulty in quitting from zero to 10, where 10 is 'can't do it' and 0 is 'no effort required'.


On that scale quitting smoking without vaping was a 10. Switching to vaping was about a 5 on average with cigarette pangs that I used to chain vape though coming in at about 8. Weaning off nicotine the first time was about 2 to 3, but the cigarette addiction was still in the picture. By the time I tried vaping nicotine again, I had been smoke free for 17 months and there was no cigarette addiction in the picture at all. The effort required to give that up after a month of use I estimate at 1. There was a small 'pull' involved, but I don't consider that addiction. I appreciate the TH that nicotine gives my vape and that may be all it was. I gave up caffeine years ago and I would say that was harder to do, specially the first one in the morning .



I read, skimmed, read and skimmed through those links.

I agree, smoking cigarettes is very addictive. I disagree that smoking addiction research correlates to nicotine addiction properties.





Human testing has I believe been done for nicotine use as a drug to treat certain medical conditions like crones and ADD's. AFAIK, no addiction was found. If I find a link later I'll post it.





I know I'm just some guy on the internet that disagrees with a whole body of evidence about nicotine addiction. I feel I'm being logical. I am also open to evidence that I'm wrong and will change my mind if that happens. Until that happens I will continue to believe what makes sense to me, as I'm sure you will also


Vape on.

Like you just said, there was a small pull for you towards the nicotine, only a 1 out of ten, but it was there. Did you know, that if your genetic makeup was a little bit different, that pull could have been much stronger?

There is growing evidence to support the model that addictions are a genetic adaptation that makes living organisms seek pleasure.

Each drug will some day be rated on a scale, and after your genotype is on the grid, you will be able to see what you are susceptible too.

Yours was only a one for getting away from nicotine when it wasn't associated with tobacco.

There is many people that are not in that league.

For ECF to deny that nicotine is addictive is not much different than Big Tobacco that did the exact same thing.

It's ECF thats at stake here, it's in the intenet archive, total , and I MEAN TOTAL denial that nicotine is addictive! It'a like comedy actually for anyone to post that. Like what is this, a conspiracy theory? To say as in that post, that nicotine is presnent in everyone? LOL, put some numbers up about that one! Yeah, sure many vegetables have nicotine in them, last time I smoked a tomatoe leaf, I didn't get a head rush lol. There is detectables in everything nowadays, is 1.8 percent which is 1800 parts per million in our ejuice a little bit different than the parts per trillion found in most common vegetable products? Come on, pseudoscience doesn't belong here.

There is no debate in the scientific community that nicotine is addictive. To say other wise is silly and misleading.

Again, with the state of the arts that they are at in the research labs how can you deny that nicotine certainly does fire the reward pathways?

It's just plain silly. It's well documented and researche to the living death.

Tobacco, thanks to big tobacco, makes the delivery system way more addictive.

That was their job.

Grow your own organic tobacco, or smoke spirits, it's not that bad. The black lungs (proven to be pigs lungs darkend with food coloring0, wasn't the problem.

Let this whole vaping thing catch on, watch the governments see how they can make money, let them tax it.

You say how could they do that, i could make my own...

haha, you could have grown your own tobacco as well, research people, how many lung cancer cases came in before the advent of the chemically produced phosphorus . Gosh the good old united states of america, your surgeon general can come onto tv and make a special presentation and tell you his findings and everyone just turns to the channel.


somone show me the conenction between the black lungs that the researchers showed you. I will show you the link that exposes how silly that all was.


and as far as you rauven, you are vulchin to look for some money, i can smell you from here.

You are educated enough to read a technical paper, cherry pick it, and pass it along as science.

You yourself have already admitted nicotine is an addictive substance.

It is further down on the scale, and I agree.

It is not harmful to say the least, it may raise blood pressure a bit, and increase mental awareness, but I certainly wouldn't say for most people that was detrimental.

Come on, get with the program, if you ingest a substance, and it fires neurons in your brain that makes you feel better, your brain is gonna tell you to get some more.

This is the least dangerous, most helpful drug that we know of. If it's addictive, I have this to say to you SO IS AIR.

 

[zanedog]

Air water and food are and addiction as well?

People get confused between needs and addictions.

I offered you those books to read that would have explained the difference, you wished to think you are better than me,, well you know what to each their own, if nicotine was so easy for you, i hope you go along and test the waters, you really have no idea of the untruths that you are spreading.
Perhaps you are the one of the geneotypes that tobacco got you.
there will be many others that nicotine gets them and tobacco has no effect

You can take your studies and put them where the sun don't shie. And when the sun finally comes up someday, nicotine will be classed as an addictive substance lol, I don't care what this forum libray spews for lies. NICOTINE is an addictive substance, and for less than that truth to get out?

You youself have even said it. Tobacco compounded it, which i have no reason to doubt.

still, if it's at the bottom of your scale you strong powerful 100 kilogram guy, can you not imagine for others not so strong as youself?

Perhaps you would not be one that got trappe by speed, .... or crack? Did opiates ever get you? You had an addiction to what you call tobacco lol....

and you weaned yourself off with vape.

Same thing heroine addicts do thru mehadone.

lol, you don't want to call yourself an addict, you will go to your grave saying, i nver got addicted to nothing.

You and I differ in the definiton of addiction, and you sir, are in denial.

NICOTINE IS AN ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCE AND NEVER EVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU IT ISN'T




ig·no·rant
ˈignərənt/
adjective
adjective: ignorant

1.
lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
"he was told constantly that he was ignorant and stupid"
synonyms: uneducated, unknowledgeable, untaught, unschooled, untutored, untrained, illiterate, unlettered, unlearned, unread, uninformed, unenlightened, benighted; More

 

[bikergranny]

There is no question that nicotine is addicting. BUT it's not the boogie man in the closet that the ANTZ would have us believe it is either. Adhering to the extreme swing on one side or the other in the nicotine debate isn't helpful to anyone. There have been studies on the use of nicotine in relieving symptoms of dementia and other cognitive disabilities. The studies look promising.
We as responsible vapers and advocates for our right to vape need to be educated in what we know about our chosen vice as it were. Is it as bad as tobacco cigarettes? No. There are just too many people bunched up on one extreme side or the other and it's drowning out those voices of reason that the ones who are seeking the truth are looking for. Sometimes the truth hurts, other times to err on the side of caution is more dangerous than the vice itself.

 

[zanedog]

There is no question that nicotine is addicting. BUT it's not the boogie man in the closet that the ANTZ would have us believe it is either. Adhering to the extreme swing on one side or the other in the nicotine debate isn't helpful to anyone. There have been studies on the use of nicotine in relieving symptoms of dementia and other cognitive disabilities. The studies look promising.
We as responsible vapers and advocates for our right to vape need to be educated in what we know about our chosen vice as it were. Is it as bad as tobacco cigarettes? No. There are just too many people bunched up on one extreme side or the other and it's drowning out those voices of reason that the ones who are seeking the truth are looking for. Sometimes the truth hurts, other times to err on the side of caution is more dangerous than the vice itself.

ummm there is a huge question if nicotine is addictive if you read what is here on a forum part of the forum that is called the library.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/529552-nicotine-myths.html

All of the scientific evidence has been neatly disposed off in one post that no one can respond to lol.

It's pure silliness, and some day, the powers that be will call these forum owners onto the carpet the same way they did with big tobacco.

It's absulute insanity to say nicotine is not addictive, and if you read that post I linked to, perhaps we could all agree to take that out of this forum, it's pseudoscience, pure junk, certainloy not what i came here for.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-library/529552-nicotine-myths.html

Sounds like the same thing big tobacco said! lol, now we have big Vapor?

show me the money wheres it at> whats going on that this, the biggest forum on the internet would allow a member to post that junk?

Wow, get that peer reviewed, torn to pieces, and not even the lowliest journal on this planet would allow it to be printed.

Junk science and a bunch of references that try to dispute real research.

There is something wrong here, I've reported that post and asked to let it be debated.

Alls the powers that be is to want the vaping community to grow bigger, this is no different than big tobbaco.

This forum is the Malaboro, and I wouldn't be surprised to find it has been bought and sold twice.

For that post, the 'myth of nicotine addition' to stand is a travesty to people that have lost loved ones to that.

heck, it's recognized by every international organization, and sure, it's lumped into tobacco.

so what, it's THE MOST ADDICTIVE PART OF TOBACOO

 

[zanedog]

here's what you get if you question rolygay on his 'nicotine myths' post.
I suspect he is a forum owner trying to increase his traffic any way he can, kinda like big tobacco did with the additives!

rolygate has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

If you are trying to send this message to multiple recipients, remove rolygate from the recipient list and send the message again.

 

[zanedog]

Nicotine isn't addictive {MODERATED}, it's all a myth folks it was all the tobacco lol..

Gosh darn Golly Geee, ECF things we are all so dumb that we belief nicotine isn't addictive lol

ECF doesn't have to answer to anyone NOW, however the laws are changing and very quickly, disseminating false information is a crime if you are an incorporated company and you can be held liable for that if it is determined ithe dissemination of the information was done to make a monetary gain.

It's the law lol, we'll see how it holds up. I have no dog in this fight, there's money involved, lots of prosecutors just loving to make a name for themselves.

 

[Coldrake]

Good grief zanedog, go have a vape and get a good night's sleep. You'll feel better.

 

[FireDragon1138]

I really agree.

I'm a libertarian at heart and patronizing messages about addiction and health risks don't jive with me.

If someone wants to start vaping they are probably interested in smoking in a general sense. Better that they try vaping than smoking, don't you think?

Let's not make the political personal, it's not my job to keep kids away from vaping beyond not giving e-liquid to teens. Smoker's guilt is transferred to vaper's guilt, methinks, and this just isn't attractive to anyone to have you taken seriously, so its quite self-defeating politically to be so defensive.

Vaping has a lot of things that put the user in control, as well. Nicotine strength, wattage/voltage, all those things are under the control of the user, for the most part. Not so with cigarettes, where it's all about marketing and the nicotine strengths are now hidden (by the government, ironically). So vaping has to be potentially less of an addiction risk than cigarette smoking. If you notice you are vaping too much nicotine, it's not hard to remedy that, after all- just choose a different e-liquid or voltage.

 

[coalyard]

ZD, what have you been addicted to. I would love to hear the perspective of a true expert.

 

[Mutescream]

There is a broad gulf between forbidding, and cautioning against the hazards. I would not encourage someone that has never smoked to vape, and I would caution them with regard to what nicotine addiction is like in the best and most descriptive way possible... In the end, it would be their choice in the same way it would be their choice to ingest caffeine (and potentially become addicted to that). I wouldn't want it to be regulated and treated like a drug, but touting it as something that would be a good idea to do on a whim is quite another thing, too.

People should make their own choices, once they are fully armed with all of the pertinent information.

 

[erinarthur222]

i encourage many flavors and vape vape vape...everyone has something !! i love the taste of chocolate pie all day long!!!

Hi, I've been vaping for only 2 months now but have been considering vaping for over a year. I've learnt so much about vaping in the past 2 months, I've spent hours on learning how to build rebuildables, about electronics, ohms, watts, and enjoy making my little wish list of what gear I want. I am a social smoker but there was this one time I bought two decks to last me a holiday with friends. Never again. May not seem much to most people, but I just don't like the thought at the back of my head that I could be doing myself harm with the cigarettes.

I've been lurking this forum for a while but what I've noticed is something disturbing with new members.

I've posted this below on another thread in the new members section, but I wanted to address this problem (imo) in its own thread since it'll be less messier. Just a heads up just to let you guys know that I'm not trying to spam, I just want to get a view point across.

What sorta irks me is when people who are new to vaping but have never ever smoked an analog come to this forum but are told by other forum members not to start vaping on the basis that, for examples sake, "if it's anything but air, it shouldn't be in your lungs" or that, it's another habit in itself, it's a gateway to cigarettes, there's no point to vape if you haven't smoked cigarettes, we don't know what chemicals are in it or the long term effects.


Why is that? I read some guy on this very forum saying word for word "It took hundreds of years before the dangers of smoking became obvious." I guess we have a lot more advanced chemical analysis as well as scientific research, better health and safety standards as well as having these health and safety standards as well as research more open to the public compared to a hundred years ago. We understand PG does this, VG does that, tobacco extract has nitrosamines which is a carcinogen but I guess slightly burnt food, car fumes unintentionally breathed in, work environment, air we breathe as well as our exposure to EMF are putting us at higher risk of cancer, things that we didn't know years ago. We all have a risk of dying, yet why are some being unaware that we live in a different world where if new things come into existence that are a threat to our longevity, we instantly become aware of it and take action against it to the point of maddening paranoia (you'll be surprised at what things are claimed to cause cancer and how many times they occur everyday) and if vaping actually posed a risk for the years it has existed, where are vapings casualities and deaths, reports of disease, etc?


The point I'm making is that we should understand that vaping has become a lot more than a life-saving cigarette alternative. There is a culture, an aesthetic as well as a service to the people of the Philippines and China (and any other countries) that have made a profound affect on the vaping world such as the Kraken, Atomic RDA, Dekang, Hangsen, etc. We have hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of people vaping for whatever reason. It is their money that they're spending and to say they're "wasting" their money is purely subjective and it is their responsibility as to how they spend their money. Vaping is more than a cigarette alternative, it is a hobby and it is very clear based on some people's signatures on this forum.


I feel what vaping forums in general are about are to encourage people who want to vape to vape by preparing them with the knowledge and skills they need as well as discussion and development of the vaping community. We can teach them the importance of amps, caution them about sub-ohms, teach them how to mix their juices, just like you and I have learned. Because we already have the technology, media and education to understand that vaping is not as bad to the point where we ward people away from vaping. It's not to say that vaping doesn't have its caveats such as coughing, possibly alleriges, asthma, etc and when people face a problem with their own vaping journey they will most likely post about it here. If people want to vape, so be it. It'll stop them from going into cigarettes since vaping is such a rich, diverse, deep and educational experience with a lot more variables, a lot more people, a lot more support, a lot more to learn, etc.

I come from a Health & Fitness forum, complete opposite of what a vaping forum is for, I know people that have gotten sick (not just nauseous but an actual disease) from drinking too much milk, taking steroids, or have died because someone decided to be too over the top with their vitmains. There are inherent risks in every hobby and passion, we know we aren't in much risk and if we are, it's obviously going to give us the time to make a post about it, see a doctor or a few (some doctors are really just not that educated) and take action and that's what makes the difference between vaping risks, and other risks.

RiP Trippers motto is: "Smoking is dead, vaping is the future, and the future is now". Understand that smokers chose to be smokers not because they moved up from something, but because they wanted to. Why can't we say the same with vaping? It is the future right? It has saved lives and is continuing to save lives. Why should we be on the side to stop people from vaping when we should embrace it?

 

[VapieDan]

Hi, I've been vaping for only 2 months now but have been considering vaping for over a year. I've learnt so much about vaping in the past 2 months, I've spent hours on learning how to build rebuildables, about electronics, ohms, watts, and enjoy making my little wish list of what gear I want. I am a social smoker but there was this one time I bought two decks to last me a holiday with friends. Never again. May not seem much to most people, but I just don't like the thought at the back of my head that I could be doing myself harm with the cigarettes.

I've been lurking this forum for a while but what I've noticed is something disturbing with new members.

I've posted this below on another thread in the new members section, but I wanted to address this problem (imo) in its own thread since it'll be less messier. Just a heads up just to let you guys know that I'm not trying to spam, I just want to get a view point across.

What sorta irks me is when people who are new to vaping but have never ever smoked an analog come to this forum but are told by other forum members not to start vaping on the basis that, for examples sake, "if it's anything but air, it shouldn't be in your lungs" or that, it's another habit in itself, it's a gateway to cigarettes, there's no point to vape if you haven't smoked cigarettes, we don't know what chemicals are in it or the long term effects.


Why is that? I read some guy on this very forum saying word for word "It took hundreds of years before the dangers of smoking became obvious." I guess we have a lot more advanced chemical analysis as well as scientific research, better health and safety standards as well as having these health and safety standards as well as research more open to the public compared to a hundred years ago. We understand PG does this, VG does that, tobacco extract has nitrosamines which is a carcinogen but I guess slightly burnt food, car fumes unintentionally breathed in, work environment, air we breathe as well as our exposure to EMF are putting us at higher risk of cancer, things that we didn't know years ago. We all have a risk of dying, yet why are some being unaware that we live in a different world where if new things come into existence that are a threat to our longevity, we instantly become aware of it and take action against it to the point of maddening paranoia (you'll be surprised at what things are claimed to cause cancer and how many times they occur everyday) and if vaping actually posed a risk for the years it has existed, where are vapings casualities and deaths, reports of disease, etc?


The point I'm making is that we should understand that vaping has become a lot more than a life-saving cigarette alternative. There is a culture, an aesthetic as well as a service to the people of the Philippines and China (and any other countries) that have made a profound affect on the vaping world such as the Kraken, Atomic RDA, Dekang, Hangsen, etc. We have hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of people vaping for whatever reason. It is their money that they're spending and to say they're "wasting" their money is purely subjective and it is their responsibility as to how they spend their money. Vaping is more than a cigarette alternative, it is a hobby and it is very clear based on some people's signatures on this forum.


I feel what vaping forums in general are about are to encourage people who want to vape to vape by preparing them with the knowledge and skills they need as well as discussion and development of the vaping community. We can teach them the importance of amps, caution them about sub-ohms, teach them how to mix their juices, just like you and I have learned. Because we already have the technology, media and education to understand that vaping is not as bad to the point where we ward people away from vaping. It's not to say that vaping doesn't have its caveats such as coughing, possibly alleriges, asthma, etc and when people face a problem with their own vaping journey they will most likely post about it here. If people want to vape, so be it. It'll stop them from going into cigarettes since vaping is such a rich, diverse, deep and educational experience with a lot more variables, a lot more people, a lot more support, a lot more to learn, etc.

I come from a Health & Fitness forum, complete opposite of what a vaping forum is for, I know people that have gotten sick (not just nauseous but an actual disease) from drinking too much milk, taking steroids, or have died because someone decided to be too over the top with their vitmains. There are inherent risks in every hobby and passion, we know we aren't in much risk and if we are, it's obviously going to give us the time to make a post about it, see a doctor or a few (some doctors are really just not that educated) and take action and that's what makes the difference between vaping risks, and other risks.

RiP Trippers motto is: "Smoking is dead, vaping is the future, and the future is now". Understand that smokers chose to be smokers not because they moved up from something, but because they wanted to. Why can't we say the same with vaping? It is the future right? It has saved lives and is continuing to save lives. Why should we be on the side to stop people from vaping when we should embrace it?

I agree about non tobacco smokers taking up vaping. What is wrong with 0Mg nicotine vaping?

 

[rolygate]

Please discuss site issues in the Site Feedback forum, it's what it's there for.

Because I don't want *this* post answered here, the thread is now closed. It looks as if the OP's question has been comprehensively answered.

Please note carefully that my sig - see below at foot of post - indicates very clearly how I can be contacted directly. Do I need to put this in larger letters? OK - I'll do that. I want to be contacted if you have a problem with anything that perhaps may be better discussed immediately and in private, and this is how to do it.

[edit]
So, now my sig is in Very Big Letters and I hope this helps. Let me know if it needs to be larger.