New Member + A bone to pick with the community

[wv2win]

If I may be blunt, I believe there is a certain amount of BS to this whole non-smokers vaping thing. While I am sure there are exceptions, NO people I know who are non smokers would even consider vaping, especially if it involved nicotine. No reasonable person would. I wouldn't, if I hadn't been addicted to cigarettes.

That being said, if I were asked by a non smoker if they should start vaping, (??) I wouldn't recommend that they do so. I just cannot imagine a rational adult who has never smoked beginning a "hobby" that would involve inhaling an addictive substance into their lungs. YMMV

On the other hand, all of us former smokers may be missing an obvious part of human nature. Many of us started smoking before it was vilified as much as it has been in the last 20 years. But there are millions of smokers who knew that smoking was extremely dangerous, yet still picked up the habit. Without being an amateur psychologist, I will pass on why that is, but acknowledge that there is something in the human psyche (at least for millions) that pushes them to make that decision.

If I was 18 or 19 again when I started smoking, due to many of my friends smoking as well as a few other reasons (I'll skip the amateur psychology guess-work), it would have been wonderful if vaping had been an alternative to smoking. So it might be, that many of us are way too far removed from who we were back when we started smoking, to fully appreciate why someone might want to start vaping, even though they never smoked before.

I would still not encourage it, but I think we should all "step-back" and not judge too harshly. (this is not directed at the person's post I am replying to, but just my thoughts in general)

 

[3Hunna]

I think my personal view of Vaping is more like a hookah, those arabic water pipes that heat up tobacco with coal, or a cigar which is not inhaled but only enjoyed for the flavour. I feel because I just like a lot of Australians mostly vape 0mg nicotine and rarely vape nicotine because it's just legally difficult to (although it was an incredibly nice experience with those 12mg and 24mg juices) that my view differs a lot from the view of the majority that do have access to nicotine.

It also stops me from wanting to by a deck. A majority of my friends smoke and I've always shared a deck with them but now vaping has helped me stop. I've probably smoked a total of 25 packs in my entire life if I think about it and that was in the span of 2 or 3 years, which is not much compared to most but the mere thought of something potentially bad happening from analogs frightens me.

On the other hand, all of us former smokers may be missing an obvious part of human nature. Many of us started smoking before it was vilified as much as it has been in the last 20 years. But there are millions of smokers who knew that smoking was extremely dangerous, yet still picked up the habit. Without being an amateur psychologist, I will pass on why that is, but acknowledge that there is something in the human psyche (at least for millions) that pushes them to make that decision.

If I was 18 or 19 again when I started smoking, due to many of my friends smoking as well as a few other reasons (I'll skip the amateur psychology guess-work), it would have been wonderful if vaping had been an alternative to smoking. So it might be, that many of us are way too far removed from who we were back when we started smoking, to fully appreciate why someone might want to start vaping, even though they never smoked before.

I would still not encourage it, but I think we should all "step-back" and not judge too harshly. (this is not directed at the person's post I am replying to, but just my thoughts in general)

That is exactly my point.

 

[ancientgeek]

Reducing the number of smokers in the world is a good goal, but it cannot be accomplished solely by converting smokers to vapers. Because, while all that converting is going on, new smokers are starting up all the time. Vaping has to be an alternative that is available to those who would begin smoking, but have not done so, yet. I would always recommend vaping over smoking.

The forces that existed when I started smoking 60 years ago are still here. I started smoking as an act of defiance, it was "cool", it was "adult", is was relaxing, and it was something to do when I didn't know what to do. I didn't care whether it was good for me or not. Only as I aged did the risks, harm, and costs become significant factors. Even so, It was vaping that allowed me to break a 60 year habit.

For me, I cannot not recommend or urge someone to take up smoking or vaping. However, if someone is considering smoking or is already an active smoker I will urge them to try vaping. It is a healthier alternative to cigarettes. I don't care whether they smoke today or not. If they are interested in vaping and it will keep then away from cigarettes, this is a good thing and I will kelp all I can.

If vaping were to suddenly disappear, smoking would continue. At least, with the availability of vaping as an alternative, the number of smokers will be reduced.

 

[DetraMental]

" Understand that smokers chose to be smokers not because they moved up from something, but because they wanted to. Why can't we say the same with vaping? It is the future right? It has saved lives and is continuing to save lives. Why should we be on the side to stop people from vaping when we should embrace it?"

Op's last few sentences quoted above. Firstly I did not choose to smoke. I became addicted to them by playing around with them at the very young age of 12. Don't try and make assumptions about me, I lived it. Yes vaping helped get me off of cigarettes and I'm better for it. I think you're trying to say that, as quoted by RipTripper, that vaping is the way of the future but you mean it to be a replacement for smoking. I can't see it that way because I was a smoker and it had me in it's death grip so I can't condone anyone putting anything other than clean air in their lungs if they are lucky enough to not be addicted to cigarettes. You want the same happy go lucky attitude given to new to vaping non smokers that are given to those who are trying to kick the habit. That's just not even in the same league since they haven't had the hardship of trying to quit or even diseases taking over their life. We're just trying to keep them from entering into something that might lead them there. God forbid. If they are assertive then they'll find their way and someone in the community will help them. I don't know what you were trying to come off with on the "common sense" bit but it didn't make sense to me or matter. I'm just trying to get you to understand that we as ex-smokers feel really strongly about what we've been through and perhaps you need to try and understand that.

 

[MikeNice81]

wrong thread.

 

[vanillayo]

I don't understand the attitude of the majority of ex-smokers. I made the choice of picking up that first cigarette. I wish that vaping had been a choice back then. People are going to start smoking no matter what and how wonderful it is that there is an alternative now. A fun one at that! My stepdaughter, at 19, went to visit some friends for a weekend came back and told me that she had made an "adult decision" to start smoking. I wish vaping had been able to be her adult decision.

 

[TechX]

The "Pleasure Police" will always try to ban any behavior that they do not personally approve of. And don't hold your breath waiting for them to educate themselves on anything they have decided they want banned. You will never convince them of anything. They are right simply because. And we pee-on have no right to question them.

 

[MikeNice81]

The "Pleasure Police" will always try to ban any behavior that they do not personally approve of. And don't hold your breath waiting for them to educate themselves on anything they have decided they want banned. You will never convince them of anything. They are right simply because. And we pee-on have no right to question them.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”


― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

 

[TechX]

Self-Righteousness seems to be common throughout our society. Let me give you some examples. A lot of vegetarians are not simply happy with their own choice. They think others should be vegetarians. Some think full vegan is the ONLY way to be. And others think if you ever eat any meat you should be slaughtered and have your kids taken away. No matter what THEIR choices are there are extremists within that choice-set. Can I honestly say there are zero long term effects of vaping? Absolutely not. However all the studies I have seen say it is a much better alternative to smoking. But the extremists will not be satisfied with that or any other study. Their mind is already made up. So what I have concluded for myself, is live your life the way YOU want to. Personally I want to find a nice balance of pleasure with a life worth living, not just as many years as I can possibly get. I would hate to deny myself the simple pleasures i truly enjoy only to be killed by lightning strike while walking to the mailbox some day.

 

[TechX]

When I started vaping, I honestly did not want to quit smoking. I enjoyed smoking. I didn't enjoy the smell. I didn't enjoy nicotine fits and having to leave a theater half-way through a movie. I didn't enjoy the obstacles placed everywhere to smoke. But when I tried vaping, I liked it better. I liked having more flavor choices. I like that my car dont stink like an ashtray. I like that I can "sneak a toke" from time to time without bothering others. I chose to reduce and cut my nicotine addiction. It worked where patches, gum and (dangerous) medications never did. Even after beating a nicotine addiction, I choose to keep vaping because it is a simple pleasure that makes my life more enjoyable. I do not want to eat bean sprouts, kale smoothies, wrap myself in bubble wrap and wear helmets everywhere I go just to get as many days on Earth as possible.

 

[TechX]

I have learned how to vape without exhaling much vapor if any at all. It came in handy at the movies, or at public places that still have issues with it. Unless someone sees me, they would never know I was vaping. But I still like being at home and blowing clouds of thick full flavor vapor!

 

[TechX]

I loved this post....

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”


― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

 

[Ryedan]

Great post zanedog! Let's have a look at your points.

I don't totally agree with what is said in Rolygates post. Sure, most of the human studies were done on smokers, however, smoking is the main delivery method for the drug. There have been animal studies where the nicotine is delivered without smoking, addictive characteristics have been verified.

I've read about animal studies before but I have never seen data from them that suggests nicotine is significantly addictive. It may well verify addictive characteristics, but without quantifying that it doesn't mean much to me.

I pulled this animal study link from the set of links later in your post:
Characterization of spontaneous and pre... [J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

"The effect was dose-dependent in all measures with no significant changes at the lowest dose of nicotine (6 mg/kg/day)".

So no indication of nicotine withdrawal in mice after that dose of nicotine daily via subcutaneous minipumps. I weigh 100 kg so that dose for me would be 600 mg per day of nicotine intake. Using 24 mg/ml juice I would have to vape 25 ml a day and I suspect it would likely be closer to 50 ml to get close to the same amount of blood nicotine levels because I'm not injecting it. The average ECF vaper vapes around 4 ml a day as do I.

They say that at higher doses they found indications of nicotine withdrawal. How high were those doses? If it was at 12 mg/kg/day, then I would have to vape 100 ml a day to get close to that. I'm vaping only 4% of that quantity at half the nicotine, so 2% of the nicotine.

I know it's more complicated than that, but this does seem to support that there is no addictive effect from vaping nicotine.

~~~ snip ~~~

full article from above quote:
Nicotine Addiction: Past and Present - How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease: The Biology and Behavioral Basis for Smoking-Attributable Disease - NCBI Bookshelf

From that article (paragraph 7):

"Nicotine is the drug in tobacco that leads to compulsive drug seeking or addiction. However, several lines of epidemiologic and laboratory evidence presented in this chapter indicate that tobacco-delivered nicotine is substantially more addictive than are pure nicotine forms. Other tobacco constituents, delivery methods, and processes may play a critical supporting role."

This is a small quote from a much larger article, but I believe it is crucial to making sense of it for our purposes with vaping.

I know what it's like for me to be addicted to smoking. To trying to quantify it, I'll use a scale of difficulty in quitting from zero to 10, where 10 is 'can't do it' and 0 is 'no effort required'.

I said before in this thread that I smoked for 37 years, switched to vaping, weaned myself off vaping nicotine, went back to vaping nicotine and them off it again. Before I managed to quit smoking I tried doing it cold turkey, weaning down slowly, not smoking until noon, the patch, gum and a couple of combinations of them.

On that scale quitting smoking without vaping was a 10. Switching to vaping was about a 5 on average with cigarette pangs that I used to chain vape though coming in at about 8. Weaning off nicotine the first time was about 2 to 3, but the cigarette addiction was still in the picture. By the time I tried vaping nicotine again, I had been smoke free for 17 months and there was no cigarette addiction in the picture at all. The effort required to give that up after a month of use I estimate at 1. There was a small 'pull' involved, but I don't consider that addiction. I appreciate the TH that nicotine gives my vape and that may be all it was. I gave up caffeine years ago and I would say that was harder to do, specially the first one in the morning .

So when the researcher does work on smoking addiction and says what I quoted from the article above, I think 'OK, that's why I didn't find vaping nicotine to be meaningfully addictive'. It also for me helps support the conclusion I came to from the animal study.

and many more links below. There is really not much debate in the scientific community, the peer reviewed papers are numerous. Yes, they indicate that tobacco increases the addictiveness of the nicotine, however, that does not negate the basic premise, that yes, nicotine is an addictive substance.

https://tobacco.ucsf.edu/content/featured-study-understanding-nicotine-addiction
~~~ Moved this link up ~~~
Animal models of nicotine withdrawal: intra... [Methods Mol Biol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of nicotine in experimental anim... [Handb Exp Pharmacol. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI
Nicotine withdrawal traced to very specific group of brain cells

A Critique of Nicotine Addiction - Hanan Frenk, Bassam Tabbara, Reuven Dar, Abdallah Tabbara, Alberto Sangiovanni-Vincentelli - Google Books

Biological Research on Addiction: Comprehensive Addictive Behaviors and ... - Google Books

Studies Link Family of Genes to Nicotine Addiction | National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)

Gene Linked to Early Nicotine Addiction

the volume of research indicating nicotine is an addictive substance, is huge. And again, yes, much of the human studies were done with smokers and ex smokers of course. Can Rolygate come up with any Peer Reviewed papers published in a reputable medical or scientific journal indicating nicotine is not addictive?

I read, skimmed, read and skimmed through those links.

I agree, smoking cigarettes is very addictive. I disagree that smoking addiction research correlates to nicotine addiction properties.

There is a lot there on animal research which is more of the same as what I discussed above. None of it indictaes to me that vaping nicotine is addictive.

I agree that not everyone will become addicted to smoking. I was extremely addicted to it so I am one of those people that it really affects. A lot of people are like me in this. I found vaping it not addictive.

edit:

As far as the human nonsmoker testing some people are looking for, I do belief the ethics behind that are not going to allow it to be done.

Human testing has I believe been done for nicotine use as a drug to treat certain medical conditions like crones and ADD's. AFAIK, no addiction was found. If I find a link later I'll post it.

~~~ snip ~~~

rant over, just hate reading such a silly thing like nicotine isn't an addictive substance, in a forum that is called the library here, that no one can even respond too! New members are going to look at that post and put their trust into it.

Our understanding of science changes as more knowledge is accumulated. Sometimes the prevailing knowledge is simply incorrect. Galileo probably had a bit to say about this topic .

I know I'm just some guy on the internet that disagrees with a whole body of evidence about nicotine addiction. I feel I'm being logical. I am also open to evidence that I'm wrong and will change my mind if that happens. Until that happens I will continue to believe what makes sense to me, as I'm sure you will also

Let's not continue to take this thread OT. I would be happy to continue discussing this in PM if you wish.

Vape on.

 

[zanedog]

Great post Ryedan! Yes, lets banter back and forth via PM, our important discoveries we can share via a new thread lol

Cheers, and have a great day!

 

[Lazythekidd]

I have a suggestion can we stop calling vapes e cigs. E cig gives the wrong impression IMO I think it is better to call it what it is our vape. I feel it does more justice than calling it an e cig I think those are more the disposable CIG look alikes not the apvs and mods most carry around. Just a thought after seeing some ridiculous propaganda, maybe if we cut the ties to cigs vapes will be seen in a new better light.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk

 

[brickfollett]

Non-smoker who picked up vaping right here. I enjoyed cigars on the weekends and the occasional use of my hookah. Nothing illegal, just wet, flavored tobacco. Haven't had an interest since, except for the occasional expensive cigar for celebration purposes. As a non smoker, I vape and enjoy my provari. And I enjoy it alot. like 6 ml per day a lot.

I see nothing wrong with non smokers picking up vaping. People smoke to ease their nerves (from my perception anyway) so why can't people vape to achieve the same thing?

 

[Robino1]

I have a suggestion can we stop calling vapes e cigs. E cig gives the wrong impression IMO I think it is better to call it what it is our vape. I feel it does more justice than calling it an e cig I think those are more the disposable CIG look alikes not the apvs and mods most carry around. Just a thought after seeing some ridiculous propaganda, maybe if we cut the ties to cigs vapes will be seen in a new better light.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk

This might explain why they are called e-cigs: Why It's Called An 'E-Cigarette' And 'E-Smoking'

just a snippet from the article: So why do we use smoking terms?

We have to use smoking-related terms in order to increase our user base. It will not always be necessary to do so, and perhaps the break point will come at around 25% of smoker conversions: the point at which a quarter of smokers have switched, and public knowlege of the equipment and practice will be widespread.

The problem currently is that unless the term 'electronic cigarette' or 'e-cigarette' is used, no one will (a) have a clue what you are talking about, (b) be able to find the products with a web search, or (c) want to switch from smoking.

To examine these, point by point:
a. If you ask the average smoker if they would like to try an EV, or a PV, or a vapouriser - they won't have a clue what you are talking about. Try it. Since they are the only people who you want to interest in the product, or the switch to something safer, or the lifestyle choice, this means you're finished before you start.

b. Nobody will be able to find the community, the forums or the vendors on the web. This could be a problem because the only way we will survive against the giant commercial interests who want to remove us is by the numbers game: getting in as many people as possible, in as short a time as possible, and getting them as engaged as possible. To do that, you have to market vaping as an alternative to smoking. Marketing means using methods that optimise conversions. The use of a term such as 'e-cigarette' is purely marketing, since it has no possible relationship to the metal, battery-powered, liquid nebuliser it loosely refers to. Let's be clear about this: 'electronic cigarette' is a marketing ploy with no real application to the product being described.

Interesting article for a good read

 

[Coldrake]

Thanks Ryedan, you save me a lot of typing! Lol!

Human testing has I believe been done for nicotine use as a drug to treat certain medical conditions like crones and ADD's. AFAIK, no addiction was found. If I find a link later I'll post it.

Here you go. The Great Nicotine Myth

In part,
"Trials of pure nicotine with never-smokers
We now know of several clinical trials (there are at least six published) that involved administration of pure nicotine to never-smokers [14] for purposes such as investigation of treatments for various disorders. No subjects showed any signs of reinforcement. A typical example was one investigating nicotine therapy for cognitive impairment, where after high dosage administration for 6 months (equivalent to the amount delivered by 18 cigarettes daily), none of the subjects experienced any withdrawal symptoms or continued to use nicotine [10].
Current evidence therefore is that nicotine is not dependence-creating unless delivered with synergens of some kind, or perhaps in other exceptional circumstances. Until otherwise demonstrated, there is no evidence that nicotine is reinforcing (capable of producing dependence) and some evidence that it is not.
We have to refer to the body of evidence that shows nicotine as having no potential for dependence as 'anecdotal', even though it is the result of clinical trials, because the trials were for purposes other than examining dependence issues. Because the trials were not specifically for the purpose of examining dependence, we cannot describe this evidence as demonstrating that nicotine has no potential for dependence (even though that is exactly what this evidence does demonstrate)."

Vaping if you've never smoked is up to the individual, but for those who think that people vaping if they've never smoked will help keep the government from taking away, or over regulating e-cigarettes, here are two scenarios.

Senator,
"We should ban e-cigarettes."
Vaper,
"E-cigarettes saved my life and thousands of others!"

or,

Senator,
"We should ban e-cigarettes."
Vaper,
"Don't take away my hobby!"

Which do you think would be more effective?


Here's another interesting article. Professor: Nicotine does not cause cigarette addiction

 

[Lazythekidd]

I just feel wrong calling an e cig. I get the point of its to capture an audience but I have gotten Ppl to switch with out calling an e CIG. But I'm patient enough to explain what I'm talking about. And to date I have converted 6 ppl just walking down the st vaping. But I have to admit a large part is there are a few local vape shops so the convenience issue can't come to play, but I feel there has to be a better way to go about it other than calling it an e "cigarette"

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk

 

[MesquiteMom]

I am one of those newbies you refer to. About half way through the original post (by 3Hunna )it all starts to sound like blah blah blah, poppy blah blah... what point are you trying to make? That vaping is just for those of us quitting analog cigarettes, or are you just trying to distinguish between the 'hobby' and the need???
~G~