Nicotine and your heart

[Frankie]

For very personal reasons I have been contacting local doctors asking about alternatively delivered nicotine and its possible implications for heart conditions. Unfortunately, those I managed to contact were just repeating risks of smoking, completely ignoring the smokeless factor. Our local (post- or not so post-)commie doctors just love the cold turkey sooo much... I resorted to online search then and found the following. It seems to be a reputable, well founded article and put me at ease, so maybe some other newbie with cardiovascular concerns can peruse it, too.

Nicotine is not a significant risk factor for cardiovascular events. The benefit of nicotine replacement therapy outweighs the risks of nicotine medication, even in smokers with cardiovascular disease.

treatobacco - Nicotine is not a significant risk factor for card

 

[mEtoke2]

Here's an interesting article on nicotine.

Nicotine and addiction. (tobaccoharmreduction.org)

 

[SuperStack]

"and the nicotine dose-cardiovascular response curve demonstrates a plateau effect, that protects against increased cardiac effects with increased nicotine dose"

That's an interesting tidbit of info. A linear effect using fierce 36mg juice would likely make it unusable for pretty much everyone, which explains why users are able to vape it without having heart attacks.

 

[yvilla]

Thanks Frankie, good article you found! I have also been trying to find good information on nicotine and its impact on cardiovascular issues, and it is really difficult to find articles or research specifically on the effects of nicotine all by itself, as opposed to the effects of nicotine as found in smoking. I did find some info, but your article references a number of studies.

Although I did not keep the links, I do remember also being reassured by information in a few scientific articles that the carbon monoxide from smoking appears to be a far greater culprit in arterial damage than nicotine alone.

 

[TropicalBob]

I, too, want to hear that nicotine is not a cardio or circulatory problem. But this study was clearly produced for Big Pharmaceutical. Read it with that in mind. It's all about NRT, which e-smoking is not. It's all about those small amounts the FDA allows in NRT products, not super bad 36mg liquid that some here use.

And it really doesn't say nicotine is safe. This we know: nicotine boosts heart rate and blood pressure, demolishes a good cholesterol ratio and constricts arteries. That's good?

 

[rustylug]

I agree with T/Bob on the bit about 36mg liquid .....In the uk a whole pack of 20 Embassy Regal has 22mg of nic .... A Normall high strenth cart has 18mg of nic.....If you can get by on 18mg then DONT DONT go up to super high 36mg.... No real cig has 36mg so ask your self why you would need it now !!!!

I, too, want to hear that nicotine is not a cardio or circulatory problem. But this study was clearly produced for Big Pharmaceutical. Read it with that in mind. It's all about NRT, which e-smoking is not. It's all about those small amounts the FDA allows in NRT products, not super bad 36mg liquid that some here use.

And it really doesn't say nicotine is safe. This we know: nicotine boosts heart rate and blood pressure, demolishes a good cholesterol ratio and constricts arteries. That's good?

 

[Schroedinger's cat]

I agree. Honestly, anything above 18 mg scares the hell out of me (I usually vape 11 mg). I do not even want to know what havoc that much nicotine could wreak in my body -the idea of it is enough to make my knees go weak.

As has been said before in this forum, however, a little nicotine is good for the brain, even it is probably bad for something else.

 

[BadSeed]

18mg is definitely the max I'm going to ever use. I think in the new year I'll try to cut down to lower nic levels and see how I get on.

 

[Frankie]

I understand you, TB, are a veteran e-cig researcher, but I would like to oppose nevertheless. Wishful thinking dies hard

I, too, want to hear that nicotine is not a cardio or circulatory problem. But this study was clearly produced for Big Pharmaceutical. Read it with that in mind. It's all about NRT, which e-smoking is not. It's all about those small amounts the FDA allows in NRT products, not super bad 36mg liquid that some here use.

Exactly. Big Pharma nicotine inhaler has a single dose of 10 mg, recommended daily use 6-10 doses. 4 mg lozenge can be used every hour or two. That is much more than I personally use in e-smoking. As far as the 36 ml liquid is concerned, it´s up to its users. Some like a glass of wine after dinner, others prefer a bottle of vodka. I had to dilute 18 mg, because it was way too strong for me - but 36 mg users might be young and/or healthy... In other words, I am interested in implications for moderate use.

And it really doesn't say nicotine is safe. This we know: nicotine boosts heart rate and blood pressure, demolishes a good cholesterol ratio and constricts arteries. That's good?

Do we? That is exactly what I was trying to find real answer for. Because I have a nagging feeling that this damage is mostly due to smoke, not nicotine itself. Are there relevant sources about cardiovascular risks of non-smoke nic? I wish there weren´t, but if you know of any, please post links.

My personal heart rate went down appx. 10 beats in average (OK, only ten days off the smoke, but I have been measuring this and BP daily for quite a time and never had less than 80 (usually well over 90) and now I I can even occasionally score late seventies, which was a goal my doctor wanted to use dangerous beta blockers for. I also tend not to have *much* increased beat rate immediately after vaping. Cigarette used to get me somewhere around 110/minute, vaping up into 90-ies, but not always.

I also found a several day´s tendency to have somewhat higher systolic and lower diastolic BP, so instead of e.g. 130/90 I score more to the levels of 140/80(ish). Medication stayed the same, only bad habits changed. Will have to ask doc what (if anything) that implies.

 

[TropicalBob]

I'll repeat this: I want to believe nicotine is not causing harm to the heart and circulatory system. Want to. I search for favorable articles to support that hope. But I try to scan real science, flawed though it often is. Try sciencedaily.com. Just search for "nicotine" and prepare to spend hours reading.

But as has been noted in other posts, until recently the research was focused on the health effects of smoking, not nicotine. Nicotine is only one of about 4,000 chemicals in tobacco smoke. To understand nicotine's singular impact, it has to be tested in isolation. That was rarely done. No money in that research.

Now that anti-smoking has morphed into anti-tobacco, which is morphing into anti-nicotine, we should get more studies on nicotine alone. I'm sure we'll find that it has benefits and undesirable consequences, too. Does one outweigh the other? For me, I'm a nic addict, so I fear I'll keep on keeping on with e-smoking. But it would be nice to find the optimal dose to satisfy addiction without destroying health. That's the answer I'm searching for in the new research.

BTW: Those mg does for Big Pharma products really don't tell the story. None of them are strong enough for a pack-a-day cigarette smoker. That's why their success rate in a mere 5%. They all absorb or dissolve over an extended period of time, with differing efficiency rates. None equal the kick of a single cigarette, smoked in 7 minutes. None are as potent as high-nic e-liquid vaporized in one of our devices (unless the NRT products are abused; but the nic limits on them are for HEALTH and SAFETY, too, so what are we doing????).

 

[yvilla]

Bob, I found some more reassuring information on this issue -- and you pointed me to it, albeit unknowingly.

I had never heard of Stonewall before, so when I saw a post of yours about it on another thread, I went to check it out. Their site has some links to research articles, and I discovered that plenty of studies have been done with regard to smokeless tobacco products and cardiovascular disease (as well as cancer and other health issues related to smoking). The nicotine in ST products certainly seems to be somewhat comparable to the nicotine we get from from e-smoking.

Here's a really reassuring quote from one article:

In 2003, Asplund completed a comprehensive review of the cardiovascular
effects of ST use [102]. He concluded that, in distinct contrast to smokers, ST users do not exhibit any significant differences from nonusers of tobacco with regard to the following measures of cardiovascular health: heart rate, blood pressure, cardiac output and maximal working
capacity, levels of hemoglobin and hematocrit, leukocytes, antioxidant vitamins, fibrinogen, components of the fibrinolytic system, C-reactive protein and thromboxane A2 production. In addition, ST users did not show important smoking-associated vascular changes, including
increased thickness of blood vessels and atherosclerotic plaque development. In summary, most of the medical and epidemiologic evidence documents that ST users do not have elevated risks for cardiovascular diseases.​

And here's the URL to the whole article:

dissolvabletobacco.com/papers/Rodu%20Godshall%20Smokeless%20Overview.pdf (just copy and paste; I can't post an active url yet)​

So now I'll look for more research on the health effects of ST.

 

[kathyo13]

as far as i could find out, the only effect that nicotine has on the body is chemical in the brain. it increases the chemical that helps the 'pleasure' part of the brain which in turn increases adrenaline. The increase in your heart rate from this can also be experienced as a result of taking a brisk walk.

 

[Frankie]

Whatever the scientific findings will be, my personal result seems to be a slight but noticeable decrease of a heart beat rate both in calm state and during/immediately-after vaping when compared to my smoking days (the incredible 11 days ago ). This month I am going to have my biannual checkup - almost exactly 1 month after quitting-, so we will see what the ecg and the doc can say about the impacts. I do not intend to vape in the waiting room with other patients, so the BP and pulse results might be even a bit better than those measured at home.

 

[Frankie]

I had the medical today. ECG, BP, pulse OK, but no real changes. Only my heart rate went down a bit, warding off the threat of betablockers. Admittedly, this is less than three weeks of non-smoking, so we will see in another half a year. Maybe then the real cardio advantages of vaping will be seen.

***The switch to vaping definitely did not make anything worse in my case.***

(Beware: I vape something like 7-9mg/ml juice diluted from the originals. Like it better that way. 18mg was very unpleasant for me when I started)..

 

[deewal]

I've just seen this thread so i am going to paste a post in another thread a couple of days ago. This is what i posted.

OK. I thought i would wait until i'd seen my Doctor before i put anything in this thread.
I saw him yesterday to have my blood pressure checked as have high blood pressure and am on medication which i have been taking for about 8 years now.
I stopped smoking Real Cigarettes on the 22nd August when i got my first E-Cig and have not had one since.
A month or so later i had my BP taken by the Nurse and it was lower than it had been since the previous one about a month before.
Yesterday my BP was the same as it normally is which my Doctor said was fine,no problems.
I talked to him specificly about the fact that although i had stopped smoking i was still inhaling Nicotine and i said that i thought Nicotine was one of the main problems with high blood pressure and he replied "not to a great extent" He said as far as he was concerned the the main problem with smoking was exactly that. Smoking and filling my lungs with tar and gunk and stopping my blood flowing properly. He said the Nicotine intake was minimal as far as my blood pressure was concerned.
He said he thought it was remarkable that i had stopped smoking because he said and i quote "If i had been asked to draw up a list of my patients who smoke and asked which of them was the least likely to stop smoking, it would have been you."
He also said that he could allready see a difference in my health as i was no longer retaining water on my ankles and lower legs which was due to poor blood circulation.
His last words where "whatever you are doing, keep it up. You should congratulate yourself"
So. Three months on E-Cig. Clean bill of Health or should i say no adverse signs but to be sure i'm going to have blood tests and urine samples taken next week.
B.T.W Yes i did show him and demonstrate my E-Cig and expressed his surprise that he had not seen one like mine, only the ones that they sell in Boots which he said were useless.

deewal

 

[yvilla]

Thanks for your post deewal! I had not seen it on the other thread you mentioned. I also have been trying to quit smoking for several years now in the face of increasing cardiovascular issues, and increasingly strong words from doctors. I've only been e-smoking instead of smoking since mid-October though, so I guess I won't find out if there's any improvement until my next Dr's appointment in the spring.

 

[karenwest1961]

My cardiologist said that nicotine is a stimulant...and it raises the blood pressure. I have irregular heart rhythm and that's why he wanted me to quit smoking and come off of all nicotine. Well, I've been vaping Jane's LOW nic. I tried the Zero and like it, but still need that little bit of nic, period. So yeah.

So, from a cardiologist standpoint, it's a stimulant. People with irregular heart rhythm or other heart issues should heed the warnings. Especially if they tend to overindulge in caffeine as well.

 

[TropicalBob]

You are correct, KarenWest. We've posted nicotine's consequences many times here.

 

[MrFog]

I've noticed my heart thumping a lot just lately and I've also got my mini stuck in my gob for most of the waking day. I used to vape 36mg, have been 24mg for the past month and now I intent to drop to 18mg for another month then maybe down again, we'll see. I'm going for a checkup in the next week or so so will ask the doc about it.

Hey kids, its gotta be better than all that crap from the smoke though

 

[Catman51]

I was wondering about this very subject. I am on BP pills (seem to be low end, but above normal). Last Doctor visit, last week, it came in at the elevated level again, so he increased the dose.
I thought maybe it had to do with vaping. Been doing the 16-18 mg. So, today I ordered Cash's in the 11 mg strength just to see if that would change it.
After reading this, maybe it wasn't the vaping, and just me being my normal hyper self!!
We shall see.