FDA Nicotine - "Derived From Tobacco" Implies Logical Absurdity

[toddkuen]

...

Next, let's consider what can be done for the rest of the smokers who may not have the same chance to quit as she did, as I have, and as many other denizens of ECF (as well as a total of 1M American vapers, if the UK proportions apply over here). Perhaps your wife will appreciate these efforts as well, since you indicated in another post that she owns a vaping B&M.

My wife is quite savvy (and present here) and is well prepared at many levels.

1) Your profile identifies you as living in PA. How about spending a minute or two contacting Sen. Casey, as per this thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-contact-us-senate-help-committee-today.html ?

That chain reaction was started much earlier today across many web sites and outlets.

2) Why not formulate your argument about the statute into a question that might be asked in the upcoming Sen hearings? (You got nothing to lose, right?) People are suggesting questions here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...us-senate-help-committee-thursday-2-30pm.html Hey, wouldn't it be fun to stymie Mitch Zeller (JD)? If he doesn't have a good answer for your analysis, then you could change the game in just one day, without even having your points raised in court. It would be all over the news, I'm sure. Imagine him sitting there in front of a sen. cmte on nat'l TV ... utterly dumbfounded. (After all, I don't think he's a vaper. So maybe he's never thought of your idea, as per the point you make about non-vaper lawyers.)

I am already involved in that general pathway but it will take some time to reach the level where something like happens.

3) I beg to differ with your point about the dearth of vaping attorneys. The new head of the American Vaping Assn. is ECF user Placebo Effect, known to us as Greg Conley. Trust me, he's a vaper, and an attorney: Greg Conley to lead American Vaping Association - ECF InfoZone

That's not exactly what I meant but that's good to know.

4) I don't know of any sensible person here on this forum who thinks the situation is "under control" vis-a-vis the FDA, or myriad battles that vapers are fighting at the state and local levels (not to mention what will be happening across the pond as the TPD is implemented by 28 EU member states). By all means do whatever you think works best, everyone is trying to help in whatever way they can. If you think you've come up with (another) game changer - this time in the form of a unique point of view about the statute - then by all means let some members of the legal community know about it. Maybe some will slap their foreheads and say "ah ha! ... I never thought of that!" No one here is stopping you. (BTW I offered you a slightly different argument directed against the FDA's interpretation of the FSTPCA in my last post. My suggestion focuses on vaping and THR instead of nicotine, and incorporates some of Congress' explcitly expressed concerns about the harms of combustible tobacco product use - but evidently you didn't care for it. That's your call, and I'm by no means offended

State legislators and local politicos are something different than the FDA.

Your THR suggestion as well as anything I suggest are all pieces of national and global general strategy.

Where's the national or global general to implement the strategy?

5) You've got "20,000 members" (to quote one of your other posts) here at ECF who will listen advidly do any suggestion that you can post here which is compatible with the forum rules. In that regard, the sky's (almost) the limit. Have at it. ECF is also not the only vaping forum on the net, there are plenty of other places where you can blog and post. We vapers will need all the help that we can get. Besides, your wife is going to have a tough time running her B&M if the FDA reg.s have the effect that most of us think they will have. So, welcome aboard!

There's certainly plenty to do.

Fighting an effective war from a little, isolated silo really isn't the way to go.

I got maybe 10 hrs notice on tomorrows meeting and we told as many people as we could today, many more will hear tomorrow.

I can guarantee you that from the other side's perspective the media ducks, senators speeches, tv cameras and all the rest were lined up well in advance.

Tomorrows news will show little dying (from touching nicotine-stained chair arms in restaurants) children in a hospital while Harkin speaks about evil, unregulated vaping.

We missed the chance for the OMB meeting in April and now there are only 291 vaping businesses to be "harmed" by all this.

There needs to be a war machine.

Am I blind or isn't there one?

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

There needs to be a war machine.

Am I blind or isn't there one?

You're looking at a chunk of it, right here.

We need someone to organize everyone, draw up a master plan, and create the larger "machine."

***

Where's the national or global general to implement the strategy?

Congratulations, Sir - on your promotion. <saluting>

We await your master plan, and your orders.

 

[toddkuen]

...

We await your master plan, and your orders.

SO what would I do if I were king of the vaping world?

1) Get together a list of all the existing organizations, the person(s) in charge, contact information, etc. - I know there are a number.

In the US and EU. I imagine there are also some kind of similar or trade organizations in China.

The EU faces the same regulation and sharing would be helpful.

China makes much of this technology and probably rakes in billions - some there ought to care about the EU and US.

2) With the "20,000" as well as who can be reached through these organizations there must be plenty of people in various disciplines: sciences, media (video, radio, etc.), law, government, business, spies, ringers to infiltrate bogus "studies", etc.

You seem well plugged into all this and plenty talkative so I would designate you as the organizer to find souls interested and organize into groups.

There needs to be a secure bi-directional (not infiltrated by government, big tobacco and vape-haters) "phone chain" to reach every vaper and shop with calls to action AND for each vapor to supply information up the chain.

Ditto for law issues, science, regulation, etc.

3) Whilst organizing the rest I would take these things and issue the following messages to the world (playing shops, get on cable news, radio show, etc) - six degrees of freedom gets us onto these shows and programs:

A) "We are vapers, we are a genetic subset of the worlds population, we are here to stay, stop discriminating against us, stop persecuting us."

B) I would build a video like the EU has - with a goal of one million short videos of "Hi, I'm Rodger, I vape, if I didn't I would smoke, government wants me to smoke and die" and "I'm Suzy (kids playing in the background) - I no longer smoke - but if the government takes my ecigs away my children will be in danger again."

C) I'd create a "Death by Vaping" web page with a counter set to one (for the suicide guy). I'd try hard to document every death due to vaping and I would push this out there so others (like the CDC) don't do try and do it for us.

Underneath I would have 443,000 deaths counting down to zero over a year and write "this is what the FDA, big tobacco and big pharma is doing for you."

4) I would pick leaders out of each group and form a small, secret war council. I would make sure that member of vaping community knew about it and I would solicit ideas from everyone up the chain.

This would be as much as I would discuss publicly about this...

If I were kind of the vaping world.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

So what kind of a budget do you think might be needed for this?

Also - in terms of the #hours to accomplish each of these objectives?

Have you recruited anyone else besides me?

Do you have a chart with subgoals and timetables? Metrics for success?

I'm looking for a real master plan. Not some general outlines. You can't put an army of one person (just me so far, it seems) into the field against the multibillion-dollar American Government-Industrial Tobacco Control Complex without something more specific.

BTW I don't suppose you've noticed that people who end up commanding world-wide efforts don't generally get into such positions with no experience whatsoever in these sorts of endeavors. Usually they have proved their mettle by taking on something smaller in the past, in order to convince others that they have the necessary credibility. Have you considered a more modest goal, such as getting the city of Philadelphia to reconsider its indoor/outdoor vaping ban - at least to permit vaping in public parks? (Just as one example, which I mention only because you live in PA.) Merely a random thought.

SO what would I do if I were king of the vaping world?

1) Get together a list of all the existing organizations, the person(s) in charge, contact information, etc. - I know there are a number.

In the US and EU. I imagine there are also some kind of similar or trade organizations in China.

The EU faces the same regulation and sharing would be helpful.

China makes much of this technology and probably rakes in billions - some there ought to care about the EU and US.

2) With the "20,000" as well as who can be reached through these organizations there must be plenty of people in various disciplines: sciences, media (video, radio, etc.), law, government, business, spies, ringers to infiltrate bogus "studies", etc.

You seem well plugged into all this and plenty talkative so I would designate you as the organizer to find souls interested and organize into groups.

There needs to be a secure bi-directional (not infiltrated by government, big tobacco and vape-haters) "phone chain" to reach every vaper and shop with calls to action AND for each vapor to supply information up the chain.

Ditto for law issues, science, regulation, etc.

3) Whilst organizing the rest I would take these things and issue the following messages to the world (playing shops, get on cable news, radio show, etc) - six degrees of freedom gets us onto these shows and programs:

A) "We are vapers, we are a genetic subset of the worlds population, we are here to stay, stop discriminating against us, stop persecuting us."

B) I would build a video like the EU has - with a goal of one million short videos of "Hi, I'm Rodger, I vape, if I didn't I would smoke, government wants me to smoke and die" and "I'm Suzy (kids playing in the background) - I no longer smoke - but if the government takes my ecigs away my children will be in danger again."

C) I'd create a "Death by Vaping" web page with a counter set to one (for the suicide guy). I'd try hard to document every death due to vaping and I would push this out there so others (like the CDC) don't do try and do it for us.

Underneath I would have 443,000 deaths counting down to zero over a year and write "this is what the FDA, big tobacco and big pharma is doing for you."

4) I would pick leaders out of each group and form a small, secret war council. I would make sure that member of vaping community knew about it and I would solicit ideas from everyone up the chain.

This would be as much as I would discuss publicly about this...

If I were kind of the vaping world.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

B) I would build a video like the EU has - with a goal of one million short videos of "Hi, I'm Rodger, I vape, if I didn't I would smoke, government wants me to smoke and die" and "I'm Suzy (kids playing in the background) - I no longer smoke - but if the government takes my ecigs away my children will be in danger again."

Anybody have a link to this?


I've always thought something along these lines was a good idea (for the US) to help sway public opinion & get them to act..

TV would be way too expensive, but could probably be done fairly cheaply on the internet (& even make money on YouTube, for example)..

Sort of like what the CDC is now trying to do with their $2,500 paid "actors".. But in our case, we'd have real people with real stories, how vaping saved their lives, what it means to them & their families, etc.

It has the potential to certainly help counter-act all the media garbage that's been out there...


Anybody game?

 

[toddkuen]

So what kind of a budget do you think might be needed for this?

Also - in terms of the #hours to accomplish each of these objectives?

Have you recruited anyone else besides me?

Do you have a chart with subgoals and timetables? Metrics for success?

I'm looking for a real master plan. Not some general outlines. You can't put an army of one person (just me so far, it seems) into the field against the multibillion-dollar American Government-Industrial Tobacco Control Complex without something more specific.

BTW I don't suppose you've noticed that people who end up commanding world-wide efforts don't generally get into such positions with no experience whatsoever in these sorts of endeavors. Usually they have proved their mettle by taking on something smaller in the past, in order to convince others that they have the necessary credibility. Have you considered a more modest goal, such as getting the city of Philadelphia to reconsider its indoor/outdoor vaping ban - at least to permit vaping in public parks? (Just as one example, which I mention only because you live in PA.) Merely a random thought.

My skills are motivation and public speaking, tactics, high-level organizing, strategy, science, research and technology.

I have built technology products from nothing that have beaten multi-billion dollar corporations and technological efforts of countries.

It should not be hard to find out about me and what I have done if you are really serious.

Seems to me there is about 30 days left to get out a message so it has time to penetrate into the real world before the July 9th end of comments.

If you would like a nice, neat written master plan, power point and budget you'll need to go elsewhere.

What I would and can do right now, with the support of the right people, is create a public face for all vapers: a short, provocative, controversial, in-your-face audio/video message that will get a spokesperson on cable news shows and libertarian radio.

Perhaps with an icon (like the pink breast cancer ribbon) so vapers can stand up and stand out.

Today no one would think of firing someone because they were black or gay - in fact the mere suggestion that someone is biased against a group is cause for corporate resignations (google "Brenden Eich").

This is how it must be for vapers.

But today the local big-pharma health system where I live will happily threaten your job and fire you if you are a smoker or vaper.

CASAA and Altria will do their best to extend the comment period and buy time.

If this video message is something you would like to do have the right person or persons get in touch with me so we can make this happen.

Without changing the hearts and minds of non-vapers I see little chance of success.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

I think designing a "vaping saves lives" public relations campaign is a useful, plausible, and attainable goal. A recognizeable symbol that could be used for (say) pubic protests, on bumper stickers, on web sites, and so forth might be very useful indeed. A catchy video wouldn't hurt a bit, although I see that as perhaps a bit less helpful than getting a symbol and some slogans together.

I don't know what CASAA plans in terms of public actions, but I see the FDA comment period as a beginning, not an end of a more national effort (instead of one concentrated at the state and local level). I view organizing efforts like those of Act Up or the NRA as worth emulating in many respects. Because at the end of the day, it's getting the message to the public and to elected officials which is going to matter. I don't anticipate that the FDA will be doing us any favors.

Right now, CASAA is the "public face" of this effort, whether anyone likes it or not, and ECF is still the largest vaping forum (as well as CASAA's roots).

There's a forum dedicated to campaigning. Maybe you could start posting a few items there, and see what people think. As long as you're not asking for donations, I tend to think there won't be a problem with the forum TOS.

It's a possible step forward. Something tangible and manageable. Nobody thinks this is going to take weeks or months - not anyone whom I know, anyway.

 

[DrMA]

good thoughts, toddkuen. But it isn't ideas we are short of, and certainly not opinions. We need real, organized, immediate action. And we all have day jobs, personal responsibilities, perhaps families... and little or no time to do any of these.

 

[toddkuen]

If whatever passes for "management" or "stake holders" of things like ECF, CASAA and the rest "vaping movement" aren't into and behind the message there's not much point?

After all the "fallout" will be in their laps as well.

Most people, outside of some smokers and existing vapers, don't even know what "vaping" is - let alone what it does.

While I have the time and the resources to accomplish this I would never proceed without two things:

A) Management "approval" and "backing" - not financial but philosophical.

B) A very strong message that people will talk about.

Sure "vaping saves lives," but that's not really very sexing because so does "driving 55."

A strong message is one that

A) People who know nothing about vaping will go to work and say "Gee, why didn't I know about this?" or "Why is the news telling me different?"

B) Smokers (and their relatives who want the smokers to quit) will say "I need to look into that."

C) Lays out the naked truth that the "anti-smoking Nazi's" are simply big tobacco and government in disguise who want your money and control over your so-called addiction and don't give a rat's behind about your life.

D) Tells a real, human stories of success at becoming non-smokers.

E) Puts vapers on the same footing as all other repressed minorities and makes people think twice before repressing them further.

I think if you believe there is plenty of time you are dead wrong.

Harkin and his pales will be up on capitol hill in 30 mins trashing the entire e-cig community with lies.

I guarantee you on tonight's news you'll hear "Senators act to save children from the evils of electronic cigarettes." (I have a regular gig on Thursdays and without fail for the last several weeks its right up on the screen when I get there - and people talk about it - do you think that its a coincidence its every Thursday?)

And where are we - BSing in some chat room.

No my friend, "driving 55" gets you no where.

If our message doesn't push theirs off the front page what good will it do.

I did not speak out until the deeming regulations were published out of respect for the wishes of others that I might "inflame" the FDA.

Now its obvious what the FDAs goal is so the only direction we can hope to go at this point is up.

The truth is that smokers are scared because of what's been taken away from them and I don't blame them.

Vaping needs a face now before its face becomes Tom Harkin smiling with glee as he drives a stake through the heart of vaping.

And to DrMA's point: I know and understand - but I am not about to step in from nowhere and "take over" the message unless there is agreement among the stake holders that its the right thing to do.

 

[toddkuen]

good thoughts, toddkuen. But it isn't ideas we are short of, and certainly not opinions. We need real, organized, immediate action. And we all have day jobs, personal responsibilities, perhaps families... and little or no time to do any of these.

There's an old children's story called "Stone Soup."

Its a well understood model for getting those with too much to do/nothing to spare to supply what's needed, a little video editing here, a little audio work there, connecting a need for X with Y who does X for a living, and so on.

In a large community like this I would anticipate there are a lot of resources "available" - its just that no one thinks about it that way.

 

[Stosh]

@toddkuen - Some quick suggestions for slogans...

Vape or Die
Come to the Bright Side - We have Flavors
Tea Kettles don't Smoke
Vaping IS the solution
a thread in the General E-Smoking Discussion could elicit more and better ones.

For the FDA / Congress
You can't fix stupid --- but you can numb it with a 2X4
and in a pinch, you can use my signature....

 

[toddkuen]

Haha - how about government = weaponized stupid.

I think the slogan should be very accessible to people who don't know what vaping is.

Something along the lines of: "Ask me why I no longer smoke"

After all vapers already know the score.

 

[DeeLeeKay]

I have a slogan. "Stop smoking without Quitting"

 

[Stosh]

Beat cigarettes without withdrawal

Any slogan needs to be short, to the point, and fit on a bumper sticker.
Secondary slogans need a bit of humor, and absolutely fit on a bumper sticker or T-shirt

 

[NorthOfAtlanta]

Actually, all you have to do is look at the FSPTCA to learn what Congress meant by "nicotine."

CHAPTER IX--TOBACCO PRODUCTS

"Sec. 900. DEFINITIONS.

"In this chapter:

12) Nicotine.-- The term 'nicotine' means the chemical substance named 3-(1-Methyl-2-pyrrolidinyl) pyridine or C[10]H[14]N[2], including any salt or complex of nicotine."

Actually, the definition doesn't say anything about where the nicotine is derived from, so I suppose it could include nicotine from any source, natural or man-made.

Mitch Zeller disagrees with you, at 21:14 here FDA Deeming Teleconference 4/24/2014 he states that by statute it must be derived from tobacco for the FDA to control it. The definition above is merely to nail down exactly what part of the tobacco plant they are referring to.

 

[Vaslovik]

They would then regulate nicotine, which could actually be worse than regulating it as a tobacco product...

Yes, I quite agree, and they will get around to that in time. There's really nothing stopping them at all. For now they are just beating around the bush about it being a tobacco product because they want to link it to smoking by association, but they will tire of that down the road, and just cut to the chase. They will do this not because nicotine is bad for you in the amounts you use it, but because they have a political agenda running that's all about serving the corporations and their profits. Then too, it's not what's bad for you they so much want to control, it's what you enjoy.

If there's anything you enjoy they want to have control of it so they can make you pay for it, and pay as much as they can possibly squeeze out of you. From their point of view no one should be able to enjoy anything without having to pay them for it.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

If whatever passes for "management" or "stake holders" of things like ECF, CASAA and the rest "vaping movement" aren't into and behind the message there's not much point?

After all the "fallout" will be in their laps as well.

Most people, outside of some smokers and existing vapers, don't even know what "vaping" is - let alone what it does.

While I have the time and the resources to accomplish this I would never proceed without two things:

A) Management "approval" and "backing" - not financial but philosophical.

B) A very strong message that people will talk about.

You know how to contact the folks who are identified as having positions of authority here at ECF and on CASAA's web site. Far be it from me to speak for them, nor to predict what they might have to say.

I'll make one prediction: if you're going to have a good chance of persuading most of the active posters here at ECF about anythng specific, you'll have to speak from a position of apparent knowledge/familiarity with the relevant issues. Note the qualifiers there: I obviously don't have any way of guessing what lurkers or very infrequent posters may think. And the word "apparent" means "perceived." I.e. if the consensus is that you don't have the kind of background information required to support your contentions, you may get less of a hearing. Arguments from first principles sound good to those who make them, but they ultimately don't seem to work very well. That could be in part because there are a lot of fairly bright people here who have been thinking about this stuff for quite some time.

Thus far, it seems that you have attempted to suggest two different panaceas. One of those would-be magic bullets is something that I can't say more about (but we both know what it is), and the other is a different view of the FSPTCA (which is what started this thread). In both cases, I was not persuaded that you argued from a point of view that reflected a deep understanding of the issues facing vapers. (But hey, that's just me.) As far as I'm concerned, both these discussions have come to an end, although I obviously have no business telling you what to post. I can only say that I won't participate if you wish to re-open either issue.

I'll hazard one additional guess. Insofar as you take the position that the "management" at ECF and/or CASAA is doing an inadequate job, and you are the one poster here who seems to be uniquely endowed with the capabilities to dramatically improve the results, you are unlikely to get a lot of applause. People here tend to be friendly and polite (for the most part). But they also have a lot of regard for the track record of these two entities (ECF and CASAA).

Thousands - if not tens or hundreds of thousands - of vapers have made the switch in significant part due to the support and information provided here at ECF. And while CASAA has by no means won every battle that it has helped organize here on ECF, the map of state anti-vaping laws looks pretty much the same now as it did a year ago. (Big cities are another matter, as they tend to move a lot faster and be more vulnerable to our opponents' hysteria.)

Does CASAA have what it takes to lead the fight against the FDA's proposed rule? I don't know. Only time will tell. All I can say for sure is that - so far - your two proffered panaceas ("magic bullets") haven't yet yielded pay dirt.

***

I guarantee you on tonight's news you'll hear "Senators act to save children from the evils of electronic cigarettes." (I have a regular gig on Thursdays and without fail for the last several weeks its right up on the screen when I get there - and people talk about it - do you think that its a coincidence its every Thursday?)

And where are we - BSing in some chat room.

No my friend, "driving 55" gets you no where.

If our message doesn't push theirs off the front page what good will it do.

If there is one area that some folks at ECF give me a little credit for knowing about, it's the media. In the last ten weeks, since the introduction of the PCECAA on 2/26, we have been through at last a half-dozen major anti-vaping media "storms." From the publication of Dutra & Glantz ("seven times more likely"), to the CDC's release of the poison control call center data, to everything in between (like the dead puppy in the UK, or the S.J. Park "immortalized" cells lung cancer baloney junk study re-run).

People who have been around much longer than I have will tell you about the BS that vapers had to put up with when all the products came from China (customs siezures) or the original FDA actions back in '09. Even the FDA's junk '09 "diethelyne glycol" investigation is still cited, despite the fact that they have disowned it (I won't dignify it by calling it a study).

While yesterday's hearings could've been a whole lot worse, they weren't. I can think of a dozen ways in which they could've been made into a major media circus/frenzy/spectacle. (None of which I intend to post here. PM me if you'd care to know).

So the sky didn't fall. That said, I'm a firm believer in the idea that the sky is gradually falling, and will fall if the FDA's proposed rule becomes final in its present form, as I've previously said right here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...a-will-address-some-point-next-few-weeks.html

***

And to DrMA's point: I know and understand - but I am not about to step in from nowhere and "take over" the message unless there is agreement among the stake holders that its the right thing to do.

My sense is that you would have to earn the right to a role of that nature. But again - that's just me, and those are only my

Not too many folks care what I think, nor should they.

 

[Traver]

If there's anything you enjoy they want to have control of it so they can make you pay for it, and pay as much as they can possibly squeeze out of you. From their point of view no one should be able to enjoy anything without having to pay them for it.

Isn't that what we call capitalism?

However I would like to know whether or not the FDA has legal authority to regulate synthetic nicotine?

 

[the_vape_nerd]

i've read through the now 4 pages of this thread.......

observations...roger's post are articulate, well-reasoned, brilliant in fact, so much so that i really do think you ought to be one of the leaders over there at CASAA, or other vaping rights group

OP, you are a reactionary...taking things out of context and making wild arguments that are easily counterable by the the other side, you are exactly the type of person we do not want being the voice of vapers...i do not say this to insult you...i believe you are a well educated individual but your arguing style is not the style that will get us anywhere, its combative for the sake of combativeness

i assume that the deeming regulation is headed for litigation in some form or another, one can only hope we have more roger and less OP at our table

 

[NorthOfAtlanta]

Isn't that what we call capitalism?

However I would like to know whether or not the FDA has legal authority to regulate synthetic nicotine?

see post #35.