Nicotine measurements

[Trumpybloke]

I think I will wade into this one LOL
I am currently vaping a Chinese made Marlboro, which is around the 18mg mark,
I have smoked for 20 years , and have never been able to go a day or more without cravings , My 901 with this 18 mg ( and this figure is certified by testing by the little fella who used to mail it to me ) will 95% take the edge off a craving , but wont completely get rid of it without some heavy vaping... However , recently I have been doing a little cheat now and then , and having 2-3 analogues a day at random times, NOT just when the cravings are at their worst , I have not experienced a nic rush from ANY of the analogues except a slight warmth from a morning one taken before vaping ... This tells me that I AM getting a definite amount of NRT from the liquid I am using but I suggest it might be a little less than what my body was getting on a full bore regimen of 30 odd 16 mg analogues it was used to getting ... I note also I am not a constant vaper like it seems some are here , I can quite easily walk away from the 901 for an hour or so , it seems I can have a reasonable vape, 10-15 good inhales , and walk away from it , just like regular smoking.... I wonder with a lot of the rebadging , mixing , and rebottling of imported nicotines in the US and UK if it isn't getting watered down a little somewhere along the line? I only suggest this because a lot of vapers in those countries have experiences a little different from us Aussies who mainly in the past got our gear on direct import from the chinese resellers??? I also have locally distributed bottles of 24 mg strength that kinda feel a little stronger but not by the 25% or so they should represent?

 

[GabbyD]

1.5 packs a day for 25 years here. When I was both vaping and smoking (3-4 a day) I didn't experience any head rush or whatever. I did, initially, get shaky and felt a racing heart a couple of times with the e-cig. I assumed that was a nicotine reaction. As for smokes, I smoked full-flavored cigs. Cravings? I've had a bunch but it's usually after a meal when I haven't felt like the e-cig was doing the job. What I've figured out about that is that it was a taste thing, not really a nicotine thing. Spicy food overrides the taste of the e-liquid. Another thing that overrides it is sweets, for me. I like a sweet e-liquid and if I've just eaten something like a piece of cake, it seems to negate the flavor of the e-liquid for a little while. Those things make me want a cig. I need that nasty taste to override what I've just done to my tongue, I guess. LOL!

I haven't experienced anything that people attribute to nicotine withdrawl and I've been smoke-free for over a month now. That leads me to believe the e-cig is cutting it. Maybe it's less nicotine, who knows. I normally vape 18 and I jack it up to 24 when I have cravings for a real cig. That's maybe twice a day and I'll drip the 24 to get past it.

 

[toekuttr]

Well, cotinine tests wouldn't hurt anything and might even do some good with helping determine dosage levels at the very least.

Only someone solely using an e-cig with no other means of nicotine intake could offer any useful information.

Some of the kits I looked up on Google were less than $10, so it's no big outlay and doctor is NOT necessary. I'm just surprised noone's tried it yet as cheap and easy as it would be.

 

[GabbyD]

Well, the urine tests are qualitative only, so I'm not sure how much information it would yield other than showing whether we are above or below the cut-off value, and I suspect we're all above it.

 

[Kate]

I think that we need blood plasma nicotine level tests to finally put this argument to rest.

Some people here have overdosed and even ended up in hospital with medically diagnosed nicotine overdose and some people think they are not getting much nicotine. This won't stop being an issue until there is medical proof.

 

[toekuttr]

Fortunately that's not the case. Quantitative test kits are available as well measuring 6 varying levels of cotinine levels in the comforts of your own home. They are a little more expensive but are still quite reasonable. There are quite a few but this one here looks to be a good example of what's available.

Nicalert Saliva Nicotine Tests
Here's another that's available as a single unit for home testing:
http://www.testcountry.com/products.html?product=1823

 

[Kate]

To give credible results we would need a control group, a group of esmokers only and a group of smokers. Without proper methods there would be too many variables and the results would prove nothing.

 

[Myk]

I think that we need blood plasma nicotine level tests to finally put this argument to rest.

Some people here have overdosed and even ended up in hospital with medically diagnosed nicotine overdose and some people think they are not getting much nicotine. This won't stop being an issue until there is medical proof.

You don't get better from a poisoning just by seeing someone. Of the two hospital visits I've read about here one felt better after seeing a doctor and the other's seemed to be more about a heart issue and he didn't feel totally better days after stopping the vaping.

Yes, some have gone to the hospital but there is no proof that it was poisoning. In fact all signs point to it being otherwise (panic attack).

I have figured out that vaping AND inhaling gives me panic whether it's 18mg PG, 20mg PG/VG or 24mg PG (but not 36mg PG, but I haven't done that much). I'm waiting on some 0mg to figure out if it's nicotine (could be too much or it could even be a wrong kind as in pure nicotine rather than cotinine) or a reaction to something else.

 

[Kate]

... all signs point to it being otherwise (panic attack)...

I disagree with that analysis. It doesn't nearly explain the range of symptoms and medical diagnosis I've read. Panic attacks seem fairly rare compared with things like headache.

Have you checked with a medic about what's causing your panics?

 

[Myk]

I disagree with that analysis. It doesn't nearly explain the range of symptoms and medical diagnosis I've read. Panic attacks seem fairly rare compared with things like headache.

Have you checked with a medic about what's causing your panics?

My panic in general or the panic caused by vaping? Panic Disorder seems to run in my family. I don't need a doctor to tell me that.
I also don't need a doctor to tell me I'm panicking, if a Xanax cures it I know it was panic.
Panic from vaping, no, again a doctor can't crawl into my head and figure it out. It could be that it changes my heart rate (would be attributed to nicotine), or the gurgling stomach (which it does) or that it makes my lungs feel coated (which it does). It could also be as simple as not trusting ingesting something from China (which I don't).

This is how it goes.
Someone gets a headache, thinks, "I'm OD'ing" and starts panicking over it which gets their heart going which gets them thinking more about OD'ing and by the time they're done they have a big long list of symptoms that they attribute to OD'ing.
But their list of symptoms is so minor that when they see a doctor they're told to go home and lay off the nicotine and they instantly feel fine.
If they were actually poisoned they would've been treated.

I've been down that road many times over many minor things. I know the path when I see it.

Yes some are showing signs of ODs but the two hospital visits weren't.
The ones that were showing signs of ODs were headaches, long lasting painful headaches which common headache cures didn't fix. But that one symptom does not mean OD, it could mean migraine.
Hiccups and nausea tend to come before the "velvet hammer".

 

[Kate]

I think hiccups occur mainly when nicotine is swallowed, not inhaled.

What treatment would you expect for nicotine overdose? If you think the doctors were wrong with their diagnosis in the three cases I've read about (that don't include panic attacks) what could they have done apart from advising to lay off stimulants?

 

[Frankie]

I believe at least one was diagnosed as OD ("nicotine poisoning" to be precise) by real life doctors who actually examined him, so I would simply disregard aby "diagnosis" made by somebody just reading about him in a Web forum.

 

[TropicalBob]

I haven't visited this thread in awhile, so some points on previous posts: No, I don't inhale pipe smoke. Never have. It's my lungs I'm trying to protect now by e-smoking. The rest of my body will have to fend for itself for awhile while I deal with smoking withdrawal.

As for nicotine figures ... take your pick. Dr. Laugesen's figures are evolving, to put it kindly. At first, it was half the nicotine of a cigarette puff. Then it was one-fifth. In his latest post to the Australians, he says it is 9% as strong as a cigarette.

I tend more to the latter figure. As noted before, however, I don't depend on e-cigs alone. I've always got a snus in place, Toekuttr (good to see you back here from the snuson.com forum), or a Stonewall. I LIVE for my pipe times. I just feel NOTHING from e-smoking alone. But I like the habit replacement and great taste of the vapor. I'm now addicted to e-cigs.

BTW: I always look for home cotinine tests when I visit the drugstore. Lots of marijauna, ......., ...., etc, but no cotinine tests yet. As soon as I see one, I'll buy it. And, yes, it can measure quantity, as well as presence. I want to know the quantity, since my daily nicotine total is impossible to measure any other way.

 

[Kate]

I found this test which can give an idea of whether someone is a 'heavy or light smoker', not very accurate sounding but better than positive or negative alone - Smokescreen (Urine) - Drug testing kits, alcohol tests, cotinine, nicotine and hair drug tests, drug hair tests for 3 months, cost effective on-line hair tests for drugs, urinalysis sticks at discount prices, alcohol screening and alcohol tests

 

[toekuttr]

I take it you didn't click on the links I posted Kate containing tests that quantify in six different levels. I think this could result in some pretty useful info compared to a two step test. The single test kit is under $20 and there's discounts for quantity.

The more testing done the closer the e-cig comes to the results obtained by Big Pharma with their inhalation devices at 20% efficiency. I posted long ago wondering how bathtub-science could be expected to be 5x more efficient than Big Pharma.

Hey TBob, how's it going with the snus, any luck in cutting down or quitting? Unfortunately I bet quitting that will prove difficult due to the high amounts of nicotine snus delivers.

The link with the 6 level cotinine tests for under $20 in case you missed it; NicAlert - Quantitative Instant Saliva Professional Nicotine Test + Second Hand Smoke

 

[Kate]

Maybe we could persuade a researcher or doctor to carry out some tests for us.

No trials have been conducted on people so we only have anecdotal evidence, maths and Dr Laugesen's changing lab test results to go by.

 

[Myk]

I think hiccups occur mainly when nicotine is swallowed, not inhaled.

What treatment would you expect for nicotine overdose? If you think the doctors were wrong with their diagnosis in the three cases I've read about (that don't include panic attacks) what could they have done apart from advising to lay off stimulants?

The first one (that I saw from a thread that you linked) said nothing about nicotine overdose from the doctor. That was the one where the guy was told to go home.
The second one also said nothing about nicotine overdose but was told to lay off nicotine.
In both of those instances the poster was encouraged to go to a doctor by other posters (including me because he was talking about heart problems). That encouragement fed the panic.
I haven't seen the third instance.

Do you think there is no treatment for nicotine poisoning??? So why encourage people to go to a doctor?
Diazepam and barbituates are one treatment. Atropine is another. Both of those would be useful for any type of ingestion.

Hiccups are a spasm of the diaphram, they do not require swallowing nicotine. The same person who made that claim claimed that pipe smokers don't get them and I know that is false.
If they were from swallowing you would be swallowing just as much from vaping as from pipe smoking.

I've never got the hiccups from chewing. When I've swallowed all I did was puke.

 

[Kate]

You make a lot of assumptions Myk, you don't even know which cases of overdose I'm thinking of.

I don't think there is much that can be done in severe overdose cases apart from maintaining breathing and cardiac function.

Your own experience doesn't account for the range of everyone elses here, your theories are no better. If someone says they have been diagnosed as having taken a nicotine overdose by a doctor why do you think they would lie?

 

[TropicalBob]

With pressure on smokers ratcheting up from employers, I expect to see home cotinine test kits in my drugstores soon. I don't want to order from the Intenet, since I had my identity, credit card number, etc., stolen when I placed an online order with a Canadian company. That sucks. I'll buy a kit locally when I see one.

I have no desire to quit snus now. Love them. And Stonewall. They keep me sane while I reach for e-liquids and run to the battery charger.

 

[GabbyD]

I'd buy a kit locally too, if it was cheap enough. I'm curious. I have some smoking friends I could get to do it for comparison. Not a big study with a control group, but I'm curious enough to spend a few bucks.

As for me, the couple of times I felt like I must have overdone it with the nicotine, I didn't get a headache. And I suffer from panic attacks but it wasn't at all like that either. It's hard to really put into words, but believe me I can tell the difference. I wasn't reaching for the xanax bottle when it happened. It felt nothing like that. My husband (who I hadn't told about it) even remarked a little while later that my hands were shaking. So, who knows, but I did start paying more attention to how much I was vaping. It's fun and I like it and I can do it inside and it's easy to sit here watching TV or playing on the computer and just keep puffing without realizing it. There's no "end" like with a cigarette.