Nicotine regulation: UK future

[TropicalBob]

Here's the report on where the Royal College of Physicians wants nicotine to go in the future. Near the end of the report, we see that e-smoking will be controlled by a Nicotine Regulatory Agency. This report is a real gloom and doom document for tobacco and nicotine use. There is no future for it.

http://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/pubs/contents/a7b2d652-288a-4c13-bc7b-25bf06597623.pdf

 

[KatyS]

That is one scary document. don't think US would put up with that, especially the big tobacco companies. Not to mention all the money the US would loose on taxes they collect on analog cigs.

 

[Mr.Darcy]

grim reading...big brother for nic addicts.

the age for legal purchase of cigarettes went up from 16 to 18 two days ago in the UK,so its already in motion...and its going to get much worse-perhaps insidious at first,but with gathering momentum...with,of course,the inevitable swell of support from the antis,and the indifference of the majority.

anyway,the UK government do whatever they like,and nothing and nobody gets in their way...

 

[MagusSteele]

These types of people are really starting to Piss me off.
They wanted smoking sections, fine
they wanted airplanes, fine
They wanted it outdoors, fine (but not happy)
They raise the taxes for everything and their grandmother, fine
Now they want to punish us for it?

AND, you know, they will NOT stop there. There is Way to much money in this kind of crusade for them to stop. Its how they keep thier jets and big cars, through "donations" from ...... who "DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN".
here in the US the tobacco companies paid out BILLIONS of dollars for "Education" and "Prevention" and "Treatment" for smokers, BULL CRAP. these people, threw 4 commercials on TV and Pocketed the rest.
Supression of others is Big Business.
The exact same for the Alcohol Biddys. M.A.D.D. gets MILLIONS every year, what do they do with it? NO, I am asking, what do they do with it, because they dont do a damn thing other then pass out flyers near bars that I have ever seen.
Once they get to a point where they can not SQUEEZE the life out of smokers, it will be FAT people next. Alcohol is a little to big, that will take time, and piece by piece like they did with tobacco.
Fat will be Easy, it KILLS, and hurts our "Children". McDonalds and others are already under attack here.
See, they learned long ago, when you Add "For the Children" you Can Not Argue Back In Any Way. Or else you look the fool for beating on kids 0_o even if your RIGHT.
There is only 2 ways to actually Fight Back, Through the Courts for Civil Rights Violations, and Through the Government useing their Own Laws against them.
You see when it becomes labled a addictive Drug, you are then "Disabled" and get ALL kinds of things free/like welfare. Being disabled, you can not work, therefor, they need to pay for you once 5 million go on disablity, then they MAY wake up. You Have to hit them in the Pocket and Bnk account, for any revolt to succeed against the Controlers.
The Cradle to grave, babysitting of everyone on the planet because they know better then you how to live Your life, HAS to stop, one way or the other.
Here in the states, we seem to be heading tword socialisum, where the government tells you when to Pee. At that time, Watch the HillBillys come out, and the Fur Fly then.

Its All about money, and how much they can Suck out of you, NOT helping anyone, but them selfs.

 

[leaford]

Actually, I don't see this as all gloom and doom. They recognize that some smokers cannot quit, acknowledge a harm reduction approach, acknowledge the value of less harmful smokeless tobacco products, reccomend greater availability and lower cost for NRT. Really, I think this is a pretty balanced and realistic approach. E-cigs are not directly addressed, but they could easily fit in and even thrive within the document's vision.

 

[MagusSteele]

Thats how they do it.
"Its Just a little thing, I dont see a problem."
Until next thing you know
Your ...... in a cup to test your fat intake. Or, getting your health insurance canciled, or, being fired because you smoke, or worse Had Smoked, . Or paying a 75% tax on your E-cig Juice, "for the Children"
I heard something once,
there was a law inacted where a certain race could not swim with another one. They generally thought, no big deal, we didnt want to swim with them anyway. Who (The Germans) and you know where that led.

We have to start reading between the lines.

harm reduction approach

What you didnt see was, HArm reduction of THEM, not us. As a Nicotine "Junkie", You become a second class citizen, at the least, a Lepor, a muderer, an Enemy of the State, or Worse
Sounds Paranoid dont it?
Its time we become paranoid. Becaues they ARE out to get YOU.

Your over 65, your no longer a productive member of "Society", we have to cancel all Your Medical care.

Not connected? Sure it is.
Its all the same, pick, pick, pick, chipping away Your rights, weather it be to smoke after a nice dinner, in a restaurant, or being told we can not hire you because you smoked for more then a day in your life, and we have MRIs and body cellulose tests to prove you did. "Im sorry, Your DNA has a 42% probability you may contract a disease In your Productive years".
Where does it end?
It is not the "Fairness" or Simplicity of their approach, its another chip of freedom, followed by another, wrapped in good intentions that you need to be afraid of.

*Edit, Sorry, I should have put Nazis above, and not Germans

 

[Kit]

These types of people are really starting to Piss me off.
They wanted smoking sections, fine
they wanted airplanes, fine
They wanted it outdoors, fine (but not happy)
They raise the taxes for everything and their grandmother, fine
Now they want to punish us for it?

AND, you know, they will NOT stop there. There is Way to much money in this kind of crusade for them to stop. Its how they keep thier jets and big cars, through "donations" from ...... who "DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN".
here in the US the tobacco companies paid out BILLIONS of dollars for "Education" and "Prevention" and "Treatment" for smokers, BULL CRAP. these people, threw 4 commercials on TV and Pocketed the rest.
Supression of others is Big Business.
The exact same for the Alcohol Biddys. M.A.D.D. gets MILLIONS every year, what do they do with it? NO, I am asking, what do they do with it, because they dont do a damn thing other then pass out flyers near bars that I have ever seen.
Once they get to a point where they can not SQUEEZE the life out of smokers, it will be FAT people next. Alcohol is a little to big, that will take time, and piece by piece like they did with tobacco.
Fat will be Easy, it KILLS, and hurts our "Children". McDonalds and others are already under attack here.
See, they learned long ago, when you Add "For the Children" you Can Not Argue Back In Any Way. Or else you look the fool for beating on kids 0_o even if your RIGHT.
There is only 2 ways to actually Fight Back, Through the Courts for Civil Rights Violations, and Through the Government useing their Own Laws against them.
You see when it becomes labled a addictive Drug, you are then "Disabled" and get ALL kinds of things free/like welfare. Being disabled, you can not work, therefor, they need to pay for you once 5 million go on disablity, then they MAY wake up. You Have to hit them in the Pocket and Bnk account, for any revolt to succeed against the Controlers.
The Cradle to grave, babysitting of everyone on the planet because they know better then you how to live Your life, HAS to stop, one way or the other.
Here in the states, we seem to be heading tword socialisum, where the government tells you when to Pee. At that time, Watch the HillBillys come out, and the Fur Fly then.

Its All about money, and how much they can Suck out of you, NOT helping anyone, but them selfs.

Awesome post !

 

[Kate]

Thanks for the link TBob, I've just had a quick look at the document, I haven't read the whole thing but this is interesting -

"Allow restricted sale of nicotine products that do not meet medicinal purity standards, or have other characteristics likely to represent an appreciable hazard to the user, on condition of:

complete disclosure of design, content and, if relevant, product emissions

evidence that all reasonable attempts have been made to minimise the likely hazard of the product

clinical trial evidence of efficacy as a smoking cessation aid, or effective smoking substitute for temporary abstinence, of at least the same efficacy and acceptability to smokers as existing medicinal nicotine products."

That suggests to me that our eliquid could be sold if labelled and tested in ways that some of us are trying to encourage suppliers and manufacturers anyway. It's just a matter of following good practice with hazardous, addictive substances, something we would benefit from. Regulation would also ensure the quality of the product, we don't want to be vapourising battery acid as Marian suggested might be happening on another thread, lol.

Another thing I can't see happening in the UK is the devices themselves being banned, maybe just nicotine eliquid. As far as I know possessing drug paraphernalia is not against any laws here, it's the substances themselves that have legal problems. That could mean that nicotine for esmoking might get regulated out of existence but we could still use devices for the smoking habit and get nicotine from other sources if necessary. Not ideal but better than not being able to vape at all.

 

[MagusSteele]

You are right, Kate. I do not see them banning the "Device" it self.
But,
Do you know what the code words "Clinical Trial" means?
That means, 6 years of chemical testing, several years of animal testing, several years of human testing, then regulations, and standards need to be written and approved. THEN, the different government agencys need to approve everything. So on, So on, So on. What it means is, you will NOT be allowed legally use E-cigs with Nicotine for about the next 12 years, IF, some Manufacturer or supplier would like to pony up, oh, about a Billion Dollars to fund this study.

Also, drug paraphernalia can be ammended to include anything in a blink of an eye, with the stroke of a pen.
Remember, IF they classify Nicotine as a Drug, and or regulate it, Anything and Everything connected with it will be outlawed.
I have seen butane torches put on the list. Years ago they tryed to outlaw pay telephones, because a drug user could use it to call for drugs

You can not let ANYthing pass you, once the boy pulls his finger OUT of the dike, it will slowly erode, till your over run with the torrent.

 

[Kate]

I'm not going to worry about it too much Steele, it'll take them a while to organise in the UK to ban esmoking. There are ongoing clinical trials in New Zealand at the moment on esmoking, results are due in later this year. That will at least be a start towards compliance. The quote I posted above is picked out specifically because it refers to nicotine products other than those that meet medical standards. There is a lesser burden of proof of safety if it's not a medical substance.

I think it's different for you in the US, we aren't likely to have the devices banned, you may face that battle.

Pillbox is already taking likely regulations into account with his Wiked eliquid. He's putting ingredient lists and warnings on labels and looking into getting childproof caps. He's also having his juice lab tested for safety and compliance with labelling. What we need are some more clinical trials like the one commissioned by Ruyan.

 

[brendajorsler]

As there are 'no-nicotine' cartridges that people are using in their e-cig how can an e-cig be banned ? Even if nicotine becomes a 'controlled substance' how will the smoking 'police' be able to stop and check every vapourising device to see if the user has any nicotine in the cartridge.
Every cartridge 'seized' would have to be taken off for analysis !!
This is becoming stupid. I would think that the general public (including non-smokers) would be very irate if our police were wasting time checking for traces of nicotine in e-cig cartridges instead of actually catching criminals !!
Even if the police did not actually do the arresting and testing, the money spent on other 'smoke police' would be a huge burden on the tax payer.
The WHO and Government are on a very 'sticky wicket' and quite frankly do not know which way to box !!
In one breath they want us all to quit smoking, but they do not actually want us to enjoy the quitting process. They are happy for us to stick a stupid expensive plaster on our body's as they know this is not fun. So the very idea of us enjoying an e-cig is against the grain of the killjoys.
Power to the people who defy these fat cats and brain dead politicians and all the 'do gooders'
Brenda

 

[Stan Ferou]

Well said Brenda. As far as I'm concerned, the very idea of banning e-cigs/liquid is taking government intervention into the freedom of the individual to a new, frankly ludicrous extreme.

 

[MagusSteele]

I do agree with you Brenda.
The "Fat Cats" do not care about cost, or how it effects others like us, "the addicts".
I think it happened the same over there, but, we had smoking banned in any and all public establishments, bars, and restaurants.
The state had to Create a whole new division of public health, and a whole hearing proccess for offenders, then boards to over see the implimentation and regulations, not to mention all the new court cases trying ti fight the ban.
Then the local police have to take the time to inspect the clubs for offenders, and HAVE arrested people for smoking.
Then there are the new inspectors to go around and enforce/check any and all complaints by the public which has a snitch/rat hotline to call if they even smell a cigarette. They had 200k calls the first month from ......, at a cost of 25cents each call, THEN the cost to followup on each one, with a warning letter, and a visit, I have no idea what that all cost, Millions maybe?

The people ONLY care about control, and money, not anything even remotely logical, or rational. Follow the money, always, for the answers

 

[brendajorsler]

Having just read your report for ending tobacco smoking in this country I am writing on behalf of the 10 million people in this country who actually ENJOY smoking.
We do not want that extra 10 years calculated by you that we will live if we stop smoking. We would rather die at 70 coughing than at 80 in a filthy bed not knowing the time of day. Our coughing will cost the NHS a lot less than if we all lived longer and spent an extra 10 years on planet Dippy.
Why can't your organisation leave us alone.
We do not want sticky nicotine plasters stuck on our skin (they ITCH)
You state that preventing our premature deaths will be a major benefit to the nation's health ... HOW ?? If we are dead then how will the nation benefit ? The only benefit will be that we will be old and probably senile !! Then again the Pharmaceutical company's will again grease your palms and sell their drugs to prolong the suffering of Alzheimer's patients. What a great benefit to the nation that will be.
If your organisation spent less time in bed with the pharmaceutical companies taking bribes for the millions spent on NRT then the NHS could spend that money on treating our coughs for the last few months of our miserable lives.
LEAVE US ALONE
Brenda

 

[TropicalBob]

Don't try to make it difficult with policing issues: The health types want to eliminate nicotine use. A simple premise that will be the basis for new laws.

The first law aimed at e-smokers will ban the sale or import of any nicotine product containing more than 4mg per 1ml. A few companies will test it. They will lose and pay fines. Foreign companies selling e-liquid will put "UK Out" for buying larger amounts of nicotine in cartridges or e-liquid. Sweden has "US Out" for any snus containing Cuban tobacco (it's embargoed). Enforcing this won't be hard. Shut down sale and supply. Shut off Web ordering. Shut down local shop sales.

Once the initial outcry from a few indignant e-smokers calms, it will be accepted as just the way things are.

 

[brendajorsler]

Hi Bob,
Do you really think that the Government are as powerful as to be able to shut down any web ordering ?
I think that the general public are a bit more wise to the banning of these so called illegal substances.
There are a great many illegal things that are banned here and yet are still easily available through the web or anywhere else.
The whole country is awash with 'smuggled' cigs and tobacco and booze from the rest of Europe that is cheaper than here in the U.K.
Everywhere there are 'counterfeit' designer label clothes/jewellery/perfumes etc. that are 'banned' from sale.
The street are full of illegal drugs. Many people grow/make illegal substances Young kids can buy alcohol anywhere. Guns and knives are readily available.
These are just a few examples of the market availability of 'banned' or illegal things.
If there does ever become a 'ban' on nicotine that can be used in an electronic cigarette then there will be no problem in acquiring it whatsoever. Prohibition was an example.
Brenda

 

[leaford]

Are we reading the same document?

The doc I read advocates making NRT, smokeless tobacco, and non medical nicotine products MORE available, not banning them, based on a harm reduction approach.

This sounds like the best thing we can hope for. We will never get them to back off on smoking. But they are acknowledging that the harm from tobacco is not in nicotine, but in smoking, and that some people cannot quit so need other forms of nicotine delivery, which should be available to them CHEAPER than smoking.

 

[Kate]

That's my understanding of what they were saying in that document Leaford although I didn't read it all.

In response to Brenda, they might ban nicotine from eliquid in the UK and we could probably get it on the black market but most of us do not operate outside the law lightly. We expect the law to protect us, regulation and maybe even licenses for suppliers could work in our favour, it would give us peace of mind about what we are actually inhaling. I don't want to use black market products that have no quality control or regulation, I think it's dangerous.

If the law forces a large proportion of people to act illegally then it will undermine what faith we have in the rule of law. When there are so many criminals it makes the saying that the law is an ... true. Our society relies on co-operation and compliance with the law to survive. We cannot condone illegal activity in regards to nicotine any more than we can condone the supply and procurement of cannabis. It is illegal, although many people use it. Many people believe it should not be illegal and ignore the law. For individual needs and beliefs I can see how this can be justified but as a member of a society I don't think it promotes good citizenship values to belittle the importance of being on the correct side of the law.

I'm not really a goody two shoes, this is more a moral argument than a practical one as far as I'm concerned. Just like everybody else, I'll be wanting my nicotine fix in some form or other even if it's illegal.

 

[Ruby]

I can see both your points.

What makes me glum though is the idea that I could lose my frail newfound freedom to e-smoke my way through life - (mostly) wherever I please!
I'm well conditioned as a smoker, also a scaredy cat & I ask permission to vape wherever I can. The response is heartening. Less than a week since I started e-smoking & so far 3 out of the 4 places I asked to do it made me feel more than welcome...admittedly today i was dubious so I borrowed another users line of saying I was using it for my ADD, well - it's nearrrly true! Spent happy hours vaping away indoors while my fellow smokers stood outside like naughty children having time out. I felt FREE and after years of submission - it felt great.
I don't want that taken away. We may be able to get it illegally and I certainly will!...but if I am again confined to my own house and 'outside' that sense of freedom will go... and if it is so nice already how much more will I miss it when I am a seasoned e-cig user...

 

[brendajorsler]

Yes,
We probably are reading the same document.
However whenever I read any document that our Government commissions I tend to read 'between the lines' as our Government does have a tendency to LIE !!
When I read that or leaders are being asked to consider making a particular substance (nicotine) subject to a 'central agency' then I start to twitch.
A 'central agency' tends to mean a taxable commodity that is under the total control of the Government. Or that is issued by another 'central agency' that will have the power to dispense the commodity as it sees fit i.e. the NHS. In this way they will have total control over the usage.
This is a political issue.
Even the NRT treatments here are mostly subject to clauses. For example many doctors will not issue NRT to anyone who does not agree to 'councelling' by a smoking cessation 'expert'
The more of these experts there are employed the more staff are on the NHS payroll and therefore the more votes gained by the way of the public sector unions.
It is almost a police state here now and any attempt to regulate one more 'substance' will have us all begging the state for our 'fix' which we will only get if certain 'conditions' are met.
Big Brother is out to get us all.....Even us poor E-smokers..
Brenda